Diesel Swap Alternative: Isuzu 6BG1

[The PIG Smith]

Here is something that OhioJ20 pointed out to me:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130119128068#description

http://i22.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/a1/bb/bf01_1.JPG

http://i11.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/a1/bb/c5e7_1.JPG

It's an Isuzu model 6BG1, 6.4L I6 Diesel in front of a GM TH400.
This drivetrain is out of a 1982 Airstream 280 (28 feet class A RV).

Here are the specs from Isuzu's site:
Isuzu 6BG1 (http://www.isuzuengines.com/Products/Products_6bg1_p.htm)

This particular setup is not intercooler, so I am sure an intercooler would bring the HP up.
I was told that this engine design is a distant cousin the the Duramax.


Wonder how it would perform in a FSJ?
I'll bet that be would great on the fuel mileage.
I'd bet it would do even better with a 700R4 in place of the TH400!

Would the Jeep gods frown on person for installing a Jap Oil Burner in Wagoneer? :p

[bigun]

I highly doubt the jeep gods would disapprove as everybody knows jeep stands for
Just
Everybodys
Elses
Parts
If you are really worried about it have the Jeepstress consult for you!

[joe]

The Suzy I6 is no more a relation to a V8 Duramax than a 258 is a relation to a 360 except they're both built by the same company.
Suzy inline dsl's have been around a long time and are proven great motors. What it would take to hook the six up to a FSJ is prolly patience and experimentation. If initial motor costs were similar I'd do an inline 6 Suzy any day before any Ferd(IH) or GM V configured dsl.

[The PIG Smith]

The Suzy I6 is no more a relation to a V8 Duramax than a 258 is a relation to a 360 except they're both built by the same company.



Thanks for clearing that up.
My statement was just what I was told.

Suzy inline dsl's have been around a long time and are proven great motors. What it would take to hook the six up to a FSJ is prolly patience and experimentation. If initial motor costs were similar I'd do an inline 6 Suzy any day before any Ferd(IH) or GM V configured dsl.


I've known Isuzu has been building diesel engines for a long time.
Glad to know that someone else considers them a good FSJ swap candidate.
But, like you stated very well, it come down the cost of the swap.
If a person can pick one these engines up cheap, it would make for a good swap.

[joe]

Bryan the Duramax is a Suzy designed motor and either built for GM or built by GM...I dunno? Anyway I'd go I6 Suzy before any V8 in light truck dsl's.
If that I6 is in good shape and reasonable priced run with it no matter what you have to do to get it into your rig. Then just ride.... :)

[drlocke]

Fairly impressive specs--although the dry weight sounds a little scary, and you'd have to put an extra mortgage on the cow for each oil change....

[The PIG Smith]

Fairly impressive specs--although the dry weight sounds a little scary

The specs say the 6BG1 is a 1020 lbs dry and I want to think a Cummins 6BT is about that heavy.

and you'd have to put an extra mortgage on the cow for each oil change....

Ouch! At 22qts, those would become expensive oil changes! :eek:
A person would need to run synthetic to maximize the mileage between oil changes!

[ohioj20]

We go 5,000 miles between oil changes, and that is the pure oil. My wife's TDI uses synthetic, and is 10,000 between changes.

[The PIG Smith]

One more afterthought:

If a person were to pick one these Isuzu engines up cheap, drop it in a FSJ and then at some later point,
something happened to thise engine, where would a perspn turn for support?

With a Cummins, there are lots of forums, like http://www.cummins-conversion.com/phpBB/index.php for help.

With a 6.2/6.5TD, a person could turn to http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/ for help with GM diesels.

Even the Olds Diesel (which I like) http://forums.delphiforums.com/350Diesel/start has a forum, of which I am a member.

I did a Google search and there are no forums for the commercial grade engines like what we are disccussing here.

I did find one for Isuzu Pups and there is a Diesel section there:
http://www.isuzupup.com/
I found a Yahoo Group that caters to the Isuzu Turbo Diesel Trooper and the diesel Pups:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ISUZUTD/

[mcinfantry]

thats an interesting engine. the weight of a 6bt cummins with the power of a 4bt.

it takes the negatives of the 6bt and 4bt and puts them into the same package!

[drlocke]

thats an interesting engine. the weight of a 6bt cummins with the power of a 4bt.

it takes the negatives of the 6bt and 4bt and puts them into the same package!

I'd probably lean towards the Cummins. It's just that the weight of either is apt to create some suspension issues that would need urgently to be addressed. I know it has been done, so I guess it's doable.

[men in black]

The Duramax is a General Motors diesel engine designed by Isuzu. It is produced by DMAX, a joint venture between GM and Isuzu in Moraine, Ohio.
DMAX started in December of 1998. General Motors acquired a majority stake of the venture in 2003.

Its a $7000.00 option on the new GM truck,(engine and Allison 6 speed)

Eric

[ohioj20]

Bryan, are you talking about dropping this into your J20 or a Grand Wagoneer? The J20, you shouldn't need to beef up the suspesion that much. All we did for our Wagoneer 6.2's is put another leaf in the pack.

I would call around to see the availability of parts, possibly ask the seller on Ebay about that. I'm sure there available. I see those snub nose trucks around here all the time.

[The PIG Smith]

The Duramax is a General Motors diesel engine designed by Isuzu. It is produced by DMAX, a joint venture between GM and Isuzu in Moraine, Ohio.
DMAX started in December of 1998. General Motors acquired a majority stake of the venture in 2003.

Its a $7000.00 option on the new GM truck,(engine and Allison 6 speed)

Eric


I made this wild statement:
I was told that this engine design is a distant cousin the the Duramax.


Then joe set me straight:


The Suzy I6 is no more a relation to a V8 Duramax than a 258 is a relation to a 360 except they're both built by the same company.


Eric, I dunno if this was what you were referring to, but I agree with joe,
these series of Isuzu Diesels have nothing in common with the Duramax.

I know GM produced a Duramax crate engine with stand alone computer, but I think they were some priced crazy at $12-14K
Duramax donors are like CTD powered Dodge Rams, worn out and outrageously priced.

[The PIG Smith]

Bryan, are you talking about dropping this into your J20 or a Grand Wagoneer? The J20, you shouldn't need to beef up the suspension that much. All we did for our Wagoneer 6.2's is put another leaf in the pack.

I would call around to see the availability of parts, possibly ask the seller on Ebay about that. I'm sure there available. I see those snub nose trucks around here all the time.
This would be for my Wagoneer to replace my '99 WJ as a daily driver.
My WJ is a POS! I am starting to really hate it and wish I never bought it.
Besides that, not much else works on my Grand Cherokee.
I've discovered, you either get a good one or you do not and you either love them or you do not.

With the both the suspension and brake issues of my WJ, I do not take it too far.
My thought are, I could dump yet more $,$$$ into it or I could spend the same amount of $,$$$ on a Diesel conversion for my Wagoneer.
I would have a larger vehicle for the same amount of $,$$$ with the same if not much better fuel mileage.

I am not about to go int debt for yet another car.
I have decided to fix the junk I own and avoid a car payment.
I think my Wagoneer is a cheaper pile of junk to work on.
I am sure there will folks that will disagree with my redneck logic.

Thanks for the front spring pack tip.
I've got a 3" Rough Country lift on my Waggie.
It is sooooo stiff, that maybe a 1000# engine would help smooth the ride! HAHAHAHA

Yes, I spoke with my brother and he told me those Isuzu flat nosed trucks are everywhere.

[jkchubbes]

Is this the same Isuzu Diesel that could be found in a 1980 Terra Scout? I was helping a buddy of mine in my diesel mechanics class get his 80' Terra Scout to run with one of these Isuzu Diesels under the hood. We had all sorts of problems from electrical all fried, low compression, burning oil like it was a 360 with gasoline, the fuel pump was also giving us problems when I left the class but from what I heard it just gave the instructor of the class and him a hell of time. But this was just my personal experience, everyone has there own.

[The PIG Smith]

Is this the same Isuzu Diesel that could be found in a 1980 Terra Scout? I was helping a buddy of mine in my diesel mechanics class get his 80' Terra Scout to run with one of these Isuzu Diesels under the hood. We had all sorts of problems from electrical all fried, low compression, burning oil like it was a 360 with gasoline, the fuel pump was also giving us problems when I left the class but from what I heard it just gave the instructor of the class and him a hell of time. But this was just my personal experience, everyone has there own.

I am guessing not.

Here is an example of what I think a person would find one of these Isuzu engines in:
http://www.newtrucks.com/pics/isuzublusky.jpg

The engine in the very first posting I made is from a 28' RV.

These I6 engines are commercial grade units.
At 1000#, they are too big for any non-commercial Isuzu products.
Also, the engines built in the 1990's from what I can tell are totally mechanical engines, no computer to mess with! :D

[ohioj20]

Thanks for the front spring pack tip.
I've got a 3" Rough Country lift on my Waggie.
It is sooooo stiff, that maybe a 1000# engine would help smooth the ride! HAHAHAHA

Yes, I spoke with my brother and he told me those Isuzu flat nosed trucks are everywhere.

I forgot to mention that my dad and I both have the Rough Country 3" lift kit,, just added another leaf to them. I say go for it, but that is me. I'm sold on Diesel motors. My wife loves her Jetta TDI and wouldn't consider buying a gas car again.

[joe]

Is this the same Isuzu Diesel that could be found in a 1980 Terra Scout? I was helping a buddy of mine in my diesel mechanics class get his 80' Terra Scout to run with one of these Isuzu Diesels under the hood. We had all sorts of problems from electrical all fried, low compression, burning oil like it was a 360 with gasoline, the fuel pump was also giving us problems when I left the class but from what I heard it just gave the instructor of the class and him a hell of time. But this was just my personal experience, everyone has there own.
Scouts ran a little 198 cid Nissan dsl. A little weak nippled but a good motor. Same motor as used in the CJ-10A aircraft tugs and overseas CJ-10 pickups.

[ohioj20]

Is this the same Isuzu Diesel that could be found in a 1980 Terra Scout? I was helping a buddy of mine in my diesel mechanics class get his 80' Terra Scout to run with one of these Isuzu Diesels under the hood. We had all sorts of problems from electrical all fried, low compression, burning oil like it was a 360 with gasoline, the fuel pump was also giving us problems when I left the class but from what I heard it just gave the instructor of the class and him a hell of time. But this was just my personal experience, everyone has there own.

That is a Nissan Engine that would be mated to a TF Tranny if automatic.

[Kaiser]

What I want is a Sprinter motor...

[mcinfantry]

a sprinter engine for what? if an lt1 can be made to get the milage you are talking about there is not a diesel made, or combination i have heard of, on any site getting consistant 30+mpg in a 4x4 truck configuration.

even if the sprinter could be made to get as good of milage as the lt1 combination you have, why???? the sprinter wont be free, neither will the tranny, or the additional headaches.

[710 Burner]

The last word I got on the 4-banger D in the Isuzu pick-up was that they were scarce because they were very popular with the baby Jeep crowd.

[Kaiser]

a sprinter engine for what? if an lt1 can be made to get the milage you are talking about there is not a diesel made, or combination i have heard of, on any site getting consistant 30+mpg in a 4x4 truck configuration.

even if the sprinter could be made to get as good of milage as the lt1 combination you have, why???? the sprinter wont be free, neither will the tranny, or the additional headaches.

Hey now, listen up. I dont believe I stated that you could EVER get 30+mpg out of a full sized rig with an LT1. If that's what you think...go read it again before you mcmouth off. I did state that 24 is very possible.
Im a diesel fan, and rather like the 5 cyl motor of the Sprinter.

[J10Mike]

I'm all about diesel now. The Cummins 6BT and later 24 valve version weighs approximately 1100 Lbs. I know...I have one now in my 01 Dodge truck. That's just too much weight for not only FSJ front springs, but, the rear spring mounts (front spring), and the frame. Further, if you were to drop a 6BT in an FSJ, the front end would be too dam heavy for any serious offroading.
That being said, the 4BT or 4BTA would be an excellent conversion. It doesn't weigh too much more than a AMC V8, it's low on HP...But, has great low end torque...And, is capable of 30 MPG more or less.
That's the route I'm going in my J10. Now, I just have to find that affordable 4BT.

[The PIG Smith]

What I want is a Sprinter motor...

Where I work now, we had some Sprinters, all replaced with 3500 Chevy Vans.
One of our Maryland drivers wrecked one and I had the oppurntunity to buy it.
But our units we had all sorta of issues and I decided against the 5 cylinder Benz for now.
Besides, swaping on of these electronic monsters would be difficult at best.
As much shop time as our Sprinters had and with my WJ killing me, I did want to entertain another vehicle with issues.

[mcinfantry]

Hey now, listen up. I dont believe I stated that you could EVER get 30+mpg out of a full sized rig with an LT1. If that's what you think...go read it again before you mcmouth off. I did state that 24 is very possible.
Im a diesel fan, and rather like the 5 cyl motor of the Sprinter.

can you read english?????

a sprinter engine for what? if an lt1 can be made to get the milage you are talking about there is not a diesel made, or combination i have heard of, on any site getting consistant 30+mpg in a 4x4 truck configuration.

even if the sprinter could be made to get as good of milage as the lt1 combination you have, why???? the sprinter wont be free, neither will the tranny, or the additional headaches.


my point was if your fantasy lt1 milage was real, a diesel swap would have to get 30+ mpg, but at the cost of double for the swap it still wouldnt be cost effective.

can you provide any data anywhere else besides you "not filling up" an lt1 powered fj and then computing perceived milage on a napkin?

[blackbess89wag]

Hey Guys,

I've had some experience with the ol' 6.2 (not sophisticated, but cheap to run and reliable), and would love to drop a diesel in ol' Bessie. Looking at a Cummings presently because I can just grab a wrecked Dodge and start robbing things off it at an alarming rate.

A matter of interest--has anybody looked up something called DieselSecret.com? There is an additive for sale (inexpensively) that can be added to filtered, used vegetable oil that allows it to be run without the pain in the a** of brewing it into biodiesel. Gets your cost down around 40cents per gallon. Haven't tried it yet myself, but a buddy owns a Cummins service center and he said it sounded reasonable enough. I've already got oil sources lined up--just no diesel yet to run it in!:)

[ohioj20]

Why are some of the posts on this thread so hostile? My God folks, all Pigsmith wanted was some input, not a flame war. Lighten up!:alc:

[incommando]

I would think that the engine would have to be darn near free to make trailblazing this swap worthwhile. 114bhp@ 2,500 rpm with a max rpm of 2,500? It does have 277#/tq, but that is at 1,500 rpm and gives you an effective rpm range of about 1,800 from idle to max rpm. At that same 1,500 rpm at which it achieves max tq, it is only making about 75 hp. All of this from nearly 400 cubic inches? Now I know why you see these things crawling up hills on the interstate.

DMaxs are produced near me. I have a few friends who work there. GM may own controlling interest, but you would never know it from looking at the supervision. Remember that old Micheal Keaton movie where the Japs buy out a US auto plant? Made in America maybe? That is what it looks like down there. But Isuzu is one of the largest diesel manufacturers in the world, including huge ship engines. From what I understand, the DMax is a V-engine at GM's demand. For some reason, GM & Ford seem to think that a V8 diesel is the way to go despite the billions of miles of research done in OTR trucks showing otherwise.

In a related note: I have very little knowledge of the 6.2L GM, but I know the 6.5L turbo version was absolute garbage with huge warranty and longevity issues. In the end, with incentives the 6.5 was the cheapest engine you could get in a 2550/3500 GM, and they still had trouble moving them off of the lot.. What are the pluses of the 6.2 and why did they replace it with the 6.5?

[ohioj20]

I would think that the engine would have to be darn near free to make trailblazing this swap worthwhile. 114bhp@ 2,500 rpm with a max rpm of 2,500? It does have 277#/tq, but that is at 1,500 rpm and gives you an effective rpm range of about 1,800 from idle to max rpm. At that same 1,500 rpm at which it achieves max tq, it is only making about 75 hp. All of this from nearly 400 cubic inches? Now I know why you see these things crawling up hills on the interstate.

DMaxs are produced near me. I have a few friends who work there. GM may own controlling interest, but you would never know it from looking at the supervision. Remember that old Micheal Keaton movie where the Japs buy out a US auto plant? Made in America maybe? That is what it looks like down there. But Isuzu is one of the largest diesel manufacturers in the world, including huge ship engines. From what I understand, the DMax is a V-engine at GM's demand. For some reason, GM & Ford seem to think that a V8 diesel is the way to go despite the billions of miles of research done in OTR trucks showing otherwise.

In a related note: I have very little knowledge of the 6.2L GM, but I know the 6.5L turbo version was absolute garbage with huge warranty and longevity issues. In the end, with incentives the 6.5 was the cheapest engine you could get in a 2550/3500 GM, and they still had trouble moving them off of the lot.. What are the pluses of the 6.2 and why did they replace it with the 6.5?


I have two 6.2's and my dad has one all in FSJ's. No problem with any of them, they are simple motors and great on fuel. 6.5 TD aren't as good as the 6.2. I have heard that a Banks Turboed 6.2 will out perform a 6.5 TD. As for why GMC went to the 6.5 TD, to keep up with Dodge & Ford since they both had TD's. The 6.2 and 6.5 are the same motor physically. Like a 360-401

As for the low RPM's, an older diesel usually maxes out at 3000 RPM. Diesel's are best rated by there torque and not HP. Newer diesels have a higher RPM and also more HP and MUCH cleaner.

[drlocke]

I'd been tempted to drop a 5 cylinder MB turbo diesel into a later model Wagoneer. But there is a lot of engine bay "spinach" involved, and transplanting would likely be a time sink at best and a nightmare at worst.

I did hear also that the 6.2 seemed to be a better mill than the larger 6.5 TD. Probably one's best bet if one can't find a decent Cummins looking for a home. Does anyone have the dry wt of a 6.2....?

[ohioj20]

I'd been tempted to drop a 5 cylinder MB turbo diesel into a later model Wagoneer. But there is a lot of engine bay "spinach" involved, and transplanting would likely be a time sink at best and a nightmare at worst.

I did hear also that the 6.2 seemed to be a better mill than the larger 6.5 TD. Probably one's best bet if one can't find a decent Cummins looking for a home. Does anyone have the dry wt of a 6.2....?

I think it was around 750 to 800 lbs.

[The PIG Smith]

I did hear also that the 6.2 seemed to be a better mill than the larger 6.5 TD. Probably one's best bet if one can't find a decent Cummins looking for a home. Does anyone have the dry wt of a 6.2....?

I'll share with you what I've learned from the members of TheDieselPage.
We have some good 6.2L experts among us here.

• The 1982 model was the first year and has its block painted red.
This 'Red' block has been reported to have a much higher nickel content and thicker casting/webbing that later blocks do not have.
• The 6.5 are suppose to have a high rate of cracked blocks/heads than the 6.2.
• The later model 6.2 are the most desirable and have the little bugs worked out.
• The Military 6.2 intake, a single plane, no EGR piece is the best intake. It is found in CUCV and HUMMERS.
• A 6.2L with all the little tips and tricks, sporting a Gale Banks turbo charger kit is suppose to out perform a stock 6.5TD.
• The 6.5 has an electronic injector pump that is prone to failure. A 6.2 mechanical injector pump will work on 6.5
• The 6.5 has coated pistons that keep the heat down while the 6.2 does not, making turbo applications more difficult on the 6.2.
• The later model 6.2 can upgraded to 6.5 specs (I dunno how, boring?) where the earlier models can not.

Once again, this what I understand.
I may have misunderstood what I was told, or what I was told is false.
Hopeful it is accurate.
I hope this answer some of your questions.

The http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/ is the THE place for GM Diesels, bar none!

[jkchubbes]

Nissan/Isuzu, lol same thing. I just knew I was dumbfounded to find a jap diesel in an international, figured international harvester would put one of their own diesels in it.

[incommando]

I'll share with you what I've learned from the members of TheDieselPage.
We have some good 6.2L experts among us here.


The http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/ is the THE place for GM Diesels, bar none!

Best man in my wedding worked for GM. Got the GM discount. Had two 6.5's "lemon-lawed." Bought a Cummins his brother still uses at 295K. The 6.5 had tons of injector & head gasket problems. The first on alos ate a tranny at 20k.

I have only heard good things about the 6.2, though. Freaky.

[ohioj20]

Bryan, your box is full! Here is the answer to your pm

the one in my wrecked J20 was a "C" the one in my wagoneer is a "J"

[The PIG Smith]

Bryan, your box is full! Here is the answer to your pm

the one in my wrecked J20 was a "C" the one in my wagoneer is a "J"

UGHHH!
I'll clean it out!