727\Dana 300

[xslashx]

Im attempting to do a 727\300 combo in my j10, anyone know how much lift ill need in the front for the driveshaft to have enough clearance? Ive found info for doing this swap in a CJ, but havnt been able to find anything for a J10

[BRUTUS]

I am not sure why you would need any lift at all to install a t-case. IIRC the D300 hangs down moreso than the D20.

Have you installed the 727/300 yet? I think once you get it installed you will have a better idea of what is needed for the front driveshaft.

[xslashx]

im trying to figure out what i need before i do it, it has in it a T18 and D20 now, but im pulling the motor as i speak to rebuild it, and when i put it back in, the 727/300 is gonna be put in, i just need to know if i need to order a SOA or similar kit before i put everything back together

[BRUTUS]

im trying to figure out what i need before i do it, it has in it a T18 and D20 now, but im pulling the motor as i speak to rebuild it, and when i put it back in, the 727/300 is gonna be put in, i just need to know if i need to order a SOA or similar kit before i put everything back together

I am pretty sure it will work without a lift. Every D300 I have seen has been clocked down pretty far. It originally came in the CJ's and the clocking was used to lower the front driveshaft angle.

[ajbirken]

Most people say you need at least 4" lift for the front shaft to clear the tranny pan.

[BRUTUS]

Most people say you need at least 4" lift for the front shaft to clear the tranny pan.

it's because of the automatic... I get it. Sorry for the mis-information.

[Casey]

I'll get some pics up tomorrow. The TH400/Q-T is out. I'm getting the 727/CJD300 (Currie twin sticks) sealed up and installed.

I have a '79 Chero, SOA-TT's shackle flip on stock springs. J-10 axles w/centered rear.

I need to find a yoke for the front cv shaft to work. The CJ unit has a fixed yoke for a single cardan u-joint. I need a yoke that will let me use a dbl cardan cv. I've heard that a high angle driveshaft may still be required. I wont know for sure 'till it moves on it's own again.
The 300 front output is very close to the body of the trans. I may need the high angle joint, more for clearance there, than for the angle of the driveshaft.

I still need to have a way to shift it (could use GW stuff..but want floor-cable shift), and get some more driveshafts altered.

I'm friggin driveshaft poor.

I have 14 days left 'till the ECI. Man I do this every year. :banghead:


Hory Toad is running a 727/D300 set up with J-20 axles. I've seen it go. :cool:

[xslashx]

yeah lemme know how it works out, the other thing im worried about is the cross member, so if you could let me know how you did that it would be greatly appreciated

[Casey]

yeah lemme know how it works out, the other thing im worried about is the cross member, so if you could let me know how you did that it would be greatly appreciated
I'm using one out of an '88 GW. The rig I got the trans from. ;)

[xslashx]

Lucky.... The morons at the junkyard decided to cut the crossmember out of the GW i got my trans from, got an extra one by chance? lol

[Casey]

Lucky.... The morons at the junkyard decided to cut the crossmember out of the GW i got my trans from, got an extra one by chance? lol
Uh...yeah. From a 1980 J-truck w/727. ;)

[Sambo]

the soa should be able to clear the front shaft,like mentioned 4" or better of lift should clear!
anything less requires a 2 piece shaft(pillow block) in the middle mounted off the frame!
this is the reason i went with a t400/d300:thumbsup: i have no issues with front shaft clearance...

btw my case had a double cardan yoke on the rear,single front...all i did was swap em front to rear!;)

you could order a clocking ring and clock it downward to clear!

[customcj7]

I have the 727/300(clocked flat!) combo in my cj7 and it's tight even with a small driveshaft. I have about 6" of lift SOA.

But my t-case is clocked up to almost flat so my drive shaft is even closer than yours will be. You might not even need a lift to clear.

It's totally doable so you shouldn't have any problems as long as you have at least a little bit of lift. You shouldn't need to go to SOA unless you just want to.

:thumbsup:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/skidplate1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/TBcrossexhaust.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/1557de35.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/d8a37fb7.jpg

[xslashx]

did you redrill the holes, or did you buy a clock-ring?

[customcj7]

I bought a clocking ring but have heard of people drilling new holes. I think you only have to drill a few holes. Some of them will line up.

:fsj:

[Casey]

Here it's just temporarily bolted together for cleaning and measuring. It's about 5.25" shorter than the TH400/QT.

From the rear..looks like it hangs down a bunch..it does.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/FSJ/727D300r.jpg

It's still really close to the trans at the front output...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/FSJ/727D300fo.jpg

I have to modify my CJ twin stick set up as it hits the trans...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/FSJ/727D300pts.jpg

It should be in tomorrow evening. :cool:

[customcj7]

I had to cut that tab off the side of the trans too to get my drive shaft to clear.

[Casey]

I had to cut that tab off the side of the trans too to get my drive shaft to clear.
I have the 'porta-band' sitting next to it now. ;)

I found a cv yoke. And a high angle joint. I just need to get it in and see what I need.

[scotty]

But my t-case is clocked up to almost flat so my drive shaft is even closer than yours will be. You might not even need a lift to clear.

i put a 727/d300 into my GW with completely stock front suspension. the skinny cj driveshaft touched the big fat tranny pan at ride height :eek: no way it was going to work without some lift.

i have a 258,wich put the transfer case further back. putting it behind a v8 may increase the angle enuff by moving it forward that you can get away with it by bumpstopping that side,but its definately not fun to have zero uptravel. ive been there and done that!

[Casey]

i put a 727/d300 into my GW with completely stock front suspension. the skinny cj driveshaft touched the big fat tranny pan at ride height :eek: no way it was going to work without some lift.

i have a 258,wich put the transfer case further back. putting it behind a v8 may increase the angle enuff by moving it forward that you can get away with it by bumpstopping that side,but its definately not fun to have zero uptravel. ive been there and done that!
I finally got mine in. Everything bolted right up. Even the Currie twin sticks for a CJ work great. There is only a little trimming to be done in the stock FSJ trans cover and tunnel.

First thing I noticed is the front output on the 300 hits the crossmember, requiring major reconstruction to the stock piece or fab a new one. Not that big of a deal, except when you add it to the other problems that need to be solved.

Second thing is there is no way to run a cv joint up front. The dbl joint hits the the body of the trans. The front shaft measures 24" at running length with single joints. I would have to run a skinny 1 1/4" driveshaft. The output yoke angle is off from the front axle yoke and it would most likely spit u-joints. I am not going to cut and turn the inner 'C's on my 60 just so I can run the 727/D300.


I'm not going to use this set up at all. :banghead:

I'm looking to use the 205 I have...one way or another.

[customcj7]

I guess clocking the t-case up might have actually helped with the clearance issues.

My front drive shaft is about 27" long and I'm using a reagular skinny drive shaft with two joints.

You might not need a CV shaft up there depending on how much lift you have. Fabbing up a new x-member is not too bad of a task.

Good luck man...

Noah

[Casey]

I guess clocking the t-case up might have actually helped with the clearance issues.

My front drive shaft is about 27" long and I'm using a reagular skinny drive shaft with two joints.

You might not need a CV shaft up there depending on how much lift you have. Fabbing up a new x-member is not too bad of a task.

Good luck man...

Noah
Clocking it would help where the x member is concerned, for sure.

It's not going to be that tough to build one, it's just all the other factors that combine to make this a less than desirable swap for me.

Plus even with all of the glass removed and the roof cut off, the thing will still tip the scales around 6000lbs! :eek:

I think the 205 will be the better of the two options.

[customcj7]

Yeah, if you can do the 205 and avoid all of those issues that would be cool.

[scotty]

I guess clocking the t-case up might have actually helped with the clearance issues.

My front drive shaft is about 27" long and I'm using a reagular skinny drive shaft with two joints.

You might not need a CV shaft up there depending on how much lift you have. Fabbing up a new x-member is not too bad of a task.

Good luck man...

Noah

clocking the t case up flat may help with other clearances,but definately not with the issue of the front drivesahft hitting the tranny pan up by the bellhousing. only way to help that clearance is to rotate the front output down,to try and get the output low enuff to keep the driveshaft away from the tranny. this is how IH gets away with a d20 or d300 on a 727.

the front driveshaft in my scout is 19 inches long and i use regular u joints :eek: a regular u joint actually has better travel then the cardigan CV joint. a CV is only needed in an application where the angles are too extreme to be equal in a regular driveshaft for good joint life. the CV lets you point the pinion at the top joint to have good angles and not have vibes. the CV is definately not needed up front of a part time 4wd setup.

[scotty]

I would have to run a skinny 1 1/4" driveshaft. The output yoke angle is off from the front axle yoke and it would most likely spit u-joints. I am not going to cut and turn the inner 'C's on my 60 just so I can run the 727/D300.


I'm not going to use this set up at all. :banghead:

.

are you serious? you would actually take this out and not run it because your front drivehsaft angles are not the same? :eek:

i personally would run it. fab up a couple spare skinny shafts and see how they hold up. the angle thing is not a big deal up front. the front driveshaft in my SOAed scout II is 19 inches long and no where close in terms of angles. in order for it to spin at full droop i had to rotate my pinion up a full 20*. my pinion actually points up at my front driveshaft,and is at a very slight angle. the angle on the t case is much greater. it just barely works without binding but it works. its been that way for 2 years now.

wanting a 205 is not a bad thing,but i would defiantely NOT throw away all the work youve done getting the 727/300 in because your front drivesahft angles are off.

my 2 cents,for what theyre worth :drivin:

[Sambo]

man i ran my t400/quadratrac with a centered 14 bolt for about a yr and half.
talk about compound angles:D

they ran just fine,besides you dont drive all the time on the front axle anyway!

[customcj7]

clocking the t case up flat may help with other clearances,but definately not with the issue of the front drivesahft hitting the tranny pan up by the bellhousing. only way to help that clearance is to rotate the front output down,to try and get the output low enuff to keep the driveshaft away from the tranny. this is how IH gets away with a d20 or d300 on a 727.

the front driveshaft in my scout is 19 inches long and i use regular u joints :eek: a regular u joint actually has better travel then the cardigan CV joint. a CV is only needed in an application where the angles are too extreme to be equal in a regular driveshaft for good joint life. the CV lets you point the pinion at the top joint to have good angles and not have vibes. the CV is definately not needed up front of a part time 4wd setup.

Lowering the output down kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? I want to keep all of my vital parts out of harms way. That's why I made a flat skidplate.

By clocking the t-case up the DS is moving further away from the side of the trans especially if you have minimal lift on your rig. Now if you have tons of lift on your rig then I could see how it might be better to have it in the stock position.

I know how these different drive shafts work. I have a CV on the rear and a regular two joint on the front. I was telling Casey that he may not need the CV shaft.

:) :fsj:

[scotty]

Lowering the output down kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? I want to keep all of my vital parts out of harms way. That's why I made a flat skidplate.
not if the goal is to lessen angles and keep your drivesahft from hitting the pan ;)

By clocking the t-case up the DS is moving further away from the side of the trans especially if you have minimal lift on your rig.
this is true,but the pan up front is huge. by rotating the front output up, it may move alittle further from the side,but it still has to go down past that huge bulge up front of the pan,and id have a hard time seeing it moving to the side enuff to sneek past it.

I know how these different drive shafts work. I have a CV on the rear and a regular two joint on the front. I was telling Casey that he may not need the CV shaft.

i didnt mean to insinuate that you didnt know what is what or how it works. i was actually agreeing with you that he really doesnt need a CV shaft. im not saying that he doesnt know about drivehsafts,either. but it is a common misconception that you will get more travel with a CV,and that is not true.

look at your front driveshaft t case. is your front shaft going down past the tranny toward the rear of the pan,so its going underneath that big bulge?

one thing to keep in mind that a CJ7 and a FSJ chassis are apples and oranges. the front axle is not in the same position in the chassis,in relation to the drivetrain,so what worked for you may not work for someone with a FSJ.

[customcj7]

My t-case is rotated up flat and the drive shaft clears the trans pan. The drive shaft sits right next to the trans pan at ride height.

I have a dana 44 front and rear out of a waggy and a 360 so the drive train is all the same.

Maybe my axle is a little further forward than the axle in a FSJ but that shouldn't make much difference. It's not like I have moved the axle to one side more....

It all goes back to what we have been saying since the beginning of the post. It all depends on how much lift you have.

:)

edit - added pic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/skidplate1.jpg

[scotty]

The drive shaft sits right next to the trans pan at ride height.
are you sure youre running a 727 and not a 904?

if your driveshaft is next to the pan at ride height,im not sure why its not hitting the big bulge.see if you can crawl under and take a pic from the bottom that shows the bell and big bulge in relation to the drivesahft.

as i mentioned before,i bolted a d300 to my 727 with stock front springs,and the skinniest driveshaft i had(1" or so diameter) touched the pan at ride height-it was not even driveable,let alone wheelable.

[Casey]

are you serious? you would actually take this out and not run it because your front drivehsaft angles are not the same? :eek:

i personally would run it. fab up a couple spare skinny shafts and see how they hold up. the angle thing is not a big deal up front. the front driveshaft in my SOAed scout II is 19 inches long and no where close in terms of angles. in order for it to spin at full droop i had to rotate my pinion up a full 20*. my pinion actually points up at my front driveshaft,and is at a very slight angle. the angle on the t case is much greater. it just barely works without binding but it works. its been that way for 2 years now.

wanting a 205 is not a bad thing,but i would defiantely NOT throw away all the work youve done getting the 727/300 in because your front drivesahft angles are off.

my 2 cents,for what theyre worth :drivin:
scotty, I value your experience and advice...GREATLY!

Thanks for the input. :thumbsup:

It's not only because of the angle of the front yokes.
I understand I don't have to run a dbl cardan shaft up front with a part time case. And I will probably never run on the road in 4wd.

I want to go with lower t-case gears or a dblr eventually. I feel that it would be a better choice to use the 205 I have as a starting point and go from there. I have a 205 and a 203, plus the 300. More than enough to build some sort of dblr.
I'm also getting rid of my 360 in favor of a GM TBI engine-trans. I'm looking for a 454 truck to give it's life to my Jeep. Keeping the rest GM parts makes sense to me.


The 727/300 swap will work. I have it all bolted up, and like I said there are a few problems to overcome. I just don't think it's going to be the right choice for mine after all is said and done. However, if I were to use the 300, I would look for a 904.

The only person I've seen running the 727/D300 is Horny Toad. Chris said he had problems with spitting front u-joints. He cut and turned his inner 'C's in order to correct the problem. It works great in his rig now. He's the only one I've actually seen running one in an FSJ.

[customcj7]

are you sure youre running a 727 and not a 904?

if your driveshaft is next to the pan at ride height,im not sure why its not hitting the big bulge.see if you can crawl under and take a pic from the bottom that shows the bell and big bulge in relation to the drivesahft.

as i mentioned before,i bolted a d300 to my 727 with stock front springs,and the skinniest driveshaft i had(1" or so diameter) touched the pan at ride height-it was not even driveable,let alone wheelable.

LOL, yep it's a TF727. The difference is my t-case is clocked flat.

Your t-case is not clocked and you are at stock ride height.

:D

[scotty]

. The difference is my t-case is clocked flat.

:eek:

im not sure how to make you understand that clocking the t case up(flat) makes the driveshaft clearance issue worse.

[customcj7]

It's ok man. You believe what you want to believe.

I'm going to keep wheeling my jeep with a clocked Dana 300 and TF727 transmission.

LOL:thumbsup:

[Slick Willie]

Hey customcj7, can you take a picture of the front output of the transfer case for me? I want to see how the d.s. fits through the skid plate. I can't see it that well from the one pic you've posted.

Thanks! :thumbsup:

[scotty]

dont forget to snap one of where your front driveshaft sneeks past the bulge while youre out there with your camera. i still think youre running a different transmission. or have some sort magic,rubber driveshaft :D

[customcj7]

Guys....this is nothing new in the CJ7 world. Read the beginning of the post.

here is my drive train before I installed it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/360.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/HOLE.jpg

[scotty]

Guys....this is nothing new in the CJ7 world.

youre not in cj7 world here... this is the fsj world ;)

even so,other posts ive read on JU and other little jeep forums(friend of mine wheels a cj7) guys still need lift springs at minimum and some have even used a 2 piece driveshaft up front with a carrier bearing.

a pic from the bottom,showing the driveshaft passing the pan,please :thumbsup:

[Slick Willie]

Well, that kinda helps for the floorboard, but I'm wondering about the skid plate underneath.

[customcj7]

Geez you guys are pic whores, stubborn and Scotty you talk in circles avoiding the last point I just proved you wrong on....LOL

So it's obviously a 727....you should at least admit that. And my first pic of the drive shaft clearing the pan/skid should be enough.

Do you believe it's a 727 now?

You guys are just being goofy!

:D

In this pic you can clearly see the drive shaft clears the pan and skid plate. And you can ask any of the guys at ECI that my cj does in fact run with this setup flawlessly!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/skidplate1.jpg

[Slick Willie]

can you take a picture of the front output of the transfer case for me? ...I can't see it that well from the one pic you've posted.

Please take a picture of the front output, from the bottom, so I can see it relative to the skid plate. That's what I'm trying to get ideas for. Thanks.

Edit: I don't care if your driveshaft clears the 727 or not. I have a driver drop front axle, so I'll never need a D300 with my axle anyway. Y'all can argue until you're both blue in the face, I don't care. I'd just like to have a picture of what I'm requesting. I've ordered a Stak 3 speed tcase and I want to protect it with a good skid plate. I'm trying to get ideas for mounting, driveshaft clearance, yoke outputs, etc. I'd appreciate it.

[customcj7]

I don't mind getting people pics of things at all.

Seems like Scotty just wants to argue about anything. I'm just trying to show him that I have a 727/d300 and it works just fine.

:confused:

[Slick Willie]

You can email them to me if you don't want him to see or something. I'd sure appreciate it.

Will_Ross@EOGResources.com

[scotty]

Seems like Scotty just wants to argue about anything. I'm just trying to show him that I have a 727/d300 and it works just fine.

:confused:

im not trying to argue with you,im just trying to become educated on how you made it work. ive read all sorts of posts about people clocking the t case down to make it work,and as i mentioned,this is how they come from the factory in IH scout IIs. ive also read lots of posts on lifting the rig and adding bumpstops to get the clearance. ive also read more posts than i should on people using a 2 piece driveshaft with a carrier bearing(i cant believe people actually do this). i personally put a 727 and a d300 in a stock height wagoneer and could not even drive it on the road in 4wd,let alone wheel it.

yours is the first post ive ever read that claimed clocking the case up flat made it work. i do understand that rotating it moves the front output alittle further away from the tranny. i have a hard time seeing that its enuff to put the driveshaft NEXT to the bulge,instead of under it. if this moves it enuff to make it work,a couple pics from you would show it(and very effectively shut me up ;) ),but you seem unwilling to take them.

i dont doubt that you have it in there,im just trying to figure out how youre making it work.

[customcj7]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/nhodierne/Mvc-006f.jpg

[Casey]

:eek: That's close!


But it does work. :cool:

[customcj7]

Yep and it works very good with zero issues!

[scotty]

i tried to respond to this this mornin,but some thin happened and it looks like my puter ate it :eek:

anyway,thanx for the pics,and take a couple more if you dont mind. id like to see one from the front showing the front shaft and yoke,maybe from the view of the front diff. also,next time you have your skidplate off,shoot a pic for me from the bottom,showing the whole shaft,tranny and front output on the t case.

i never would thunk clocking it flat would move the front output over enuff to keep the shaft away from that bulge,good info to have :thumbsup:

[Slick Willie]

Yeah, but that pencile thin driveshaft won't hold up to one tons and large tires. :rolleyes: Thanks for the pic. I'll figure something out.

[shepherdskeep]

Yeah, but that pencile thin driveshaft won't hold up to one tons and large tires.

If it's made from solid 4340 bar stock, I bet it would hold up quite well, just like a ChrMo axle shaft would ;)

[Slick Willie]

Ever put an axle shaft on a rock? :rolleyes: If a heavy FSJ never comes down on a rock, it might be fine. For a CJ, it has worked well...and it should.

[scotty]

If it's made from solid 4340 bar stock, I bet it would hold up quite well,

thats true,but it prolly isnt ;)

this is another good example of apples and oranges. in a cj that is smaller,lighter,and running smaller tires, you can maybe get away with the skinny drivesahft,and its worth the hassle to clock it flat in order to have a flat skid plate. in a FSJ the d 300 doesnt hang below the stock crossmember so its prolly not worth the effort to clock it up,modify the floor,etc. in order to use it. i didnt care enuff about the strength advantages of a stock 727 to try and make it work. a 904 lets you use a big diameter front driveshaft with no clearance issues,handled my 258 power just fine,and could be easily built to handle V8 power if you wanted it to.

heres a blast from the past: d300 back in my automatic days:
http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/wild/scott_probert/sp_chassis_02.jpg


i dont care what auto tranny you run,how strong it is in stock form,or how much $$ you throw at it to beef it up. water kills them all just as fast :eek:

ive never liked the idea of a slushbox. i went thru several of them,stock and built,but im still on the same t18 i originally installed :thumbsup:

give me a good granny gear grindbox any day :drivin:

[uplandhawaii]

Hers' a view of my 300 swap with 360/727. SOA with 3" lift pack factory GW drive shaft reversed just to check fitment. New shaft is being built.

Yoke to pan clearance rear of t-case looking forward, rear right corner of tranny
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/OahuJeepers/uplandhawaii/HPIM0535.jpg
Front looking back to yoke.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/OahuJeepers/uplandhawaii/HPIM0536.jpg
Same view different angle.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/OahuJeepers/uplandhawaii/HPIM0537.jpg