Propane Conversion

[Ole' Mud & Guts]

I know some of you have converted to propane. I am looking for some feedback:
1. What are the performance advantages/disadvantages to propane?
2. Does propane eliminate the need for computer controlled fuel injection?
3. What is involved in doing the conversion?
4. Is there a book or something that you can recommend on the procedure?
5. Where is a good source for the parts needed to do the conversion?
6. Is the propane conversion eligible for a fed tax break?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance

[Jeep4myBoys]

send a pm to bigun - he's done the conversion and is very happy with it.

[BRUTUS]

1. What are the performance advantages/disadvantages to propane?

Self tuning like EFI but without the sensors. Propane READILY atomizes into air. Propane has less BTU's than gasoline. Will run upside down. Propane tanks are pressurized so there is no need for a fuel pump.

2. Does propane eliminate the need for computer controlled fuel injection??

Yes

3. What is involved in doing the conversion??

Acquire the tank, pressure lines, diffuser/mixer and throttle body and install.

4. Is there a book or something that you can recommend on the procedure?

If you buy from gotpropane.com, they have a 1 year warranty (new parts) and they have a helpline. Bigun pieced everything together on his own. Search Pirate4x4 "propane conversion site:www.pirate4x4.com" for the closest thing to a "book".

5. Where is a good source for the parts needed to do the conversion?

Many larger forklifts and some cargo vans ran propane. Or to buy new I would go with gotpropane.com

6. Is the propane conversion eligible for a fed tax break?

Not sure if it is or not.... think about it this way though... you don't pay gasoline taxes on the propane that you buy for your rig.

[JeepBountyHunter]

Whats the fuel economy rating on this conversion to a AMC 360?

[cowspyrsy]

I might be interested in doing this as well. Wondering if anyone knew how the mileage compares to gasoline & price per gallon vs price per lb.?

[Jeep4myBoys]

that got propane (http://www.gotpropane.com/p5.html) site is very interesting. Looks like they don't recommend the kit for enclosed spaces like a cherokee though.

I'm racking my brain thinking of where the tanks could be mounted, but I'm not sure that there is anyplace that would be safe. wouldn't put them under because of clearance and rocks, wouldn't put them on top in case of a rollover, wouldn't put them on the back bumper, and couldn't put it inside. Unless you want to chop the top, I don't think it would work on a wag or chero.

[Ole' Mud & Guts]

Thanks for the info Brutus. Great Site. Thanks again

[BRUTUS]

I might be interested in doing this as well. Wondering if anyone knew how the mileage compares to gasoline & price per gallon vs price per lb.?

From what I have read... lots of buggys that have switched from gas to propane have saved on average about 3 gallons of propane for the same type and length of wheeling trip. It is kinda hard to get a real feel for your mileage with propane because it doesn't have a guage and you would HAVE to run it absolutely empty to be able to calculate economy... also most vehicles with propane are running larger tires and different axle gearing without necessarily correcting the speedo/odometer. Just something to keep in mind.

Also keep in mind that the average octane for propane is around 103 or 104. So it will run in a low compression engine just fine. It will however excel in a higher compression engine. My roomate seems to think that 13:1 or 13.5:1 compression would be ideal.

Forgot to mention above... it also burns cleaner because it readily mixes with air = less carbon buildup and your oil will last longer between changes.

[BRUTUS]

that got propane (http://www.gotpropane.com/p5.html) site is very interesting. Looks like they don't recommend the kit for enclosed spaces like a cherokee though.

I'm racking my brain thinking of where the tanks could be mounted, but I'm not sure that there is anyplace that would be safe. wouldn't put them under because of clearance and rocks, wouldn't put them on top in case of a rollover, wouldn't put them on the back bumper, and couldn't put it inside. Unless you want to chop the top, I don't think it would work on a wag or chero.

I am going to mount mine under the bed forward of the rear axle and then provide a skid plate from frame rail to frame rail. With as tall as Brutus is right now, my axle doesn't go anywhere near the framerails. Also, the driveshaft is already "out there" for the rocks and I didn't hit any in Moab taking the buggy lines. Not sure what you should do if you put it on a stock or near stock lifted FSJ.

I seem to recall reading a while back on this board that a guy put one inside his cherokee and didn't have any problems with mounting it inside the cab behind the rear seat. I can't remember who it was though.

[cowspyrsy]

Kinda makes you wonder why more cars didn't come like this new.;)

[BRUTUS]

Kinda makes you wonder why more cars didn't come like this new.;)

money :o

[Fiodh. Argus]

hello,
yeah I converted my jeep to propane and have a large 50 gal tank in the back of the Cherokee. It has a vent underneath to allow for the (heavier than air) propane to drain out in case of a leak, and I am also considering chopping the rear top in the future, "Avalanche" style. I don't have solid mileage numbers yet as I have had to rebuild the motor again due to faulty job done by PO. (piston slap due to non-oversized pistons and honing job) However, this time we are going .40 over with higher compression so it should be a beast with the t-18. I am hoping for 12mpg.

the setup is very easy once understood, and actually makes more sense to me than a gas carb. The propane is a bit cheaper than gas, some things I have found are -

- when filling up if you state the propane is for "offroad use", they won't charge you road taxes on it. However, you do pay sales tax. if you say it is for onroad use, then it's gonna have about 30-40cents more tax per gallon.

- the price of propane should really be compared to 100 octane race gas, and also a "full serve" fill, rather than self serve regular since we are not pumping it ourselves.... at the current price where I am, $2.59 a gallon, it's still a fair deal.

This motor should be done in about a week or two, so hopefully after that I will have a better feel for the mileage. It will still have the Erson Performer style cam and rhoades lifters and headers.

here's my write up for the conversion, which was also published in Full Size Jeep mag before it got changed to Jeep Junkie. (Jeep Junkie aint too bad, I must say)

http://www.fiodh.com/cherokee/


if it's any use to you please enjoy but hey, I'm not an expert, just researched it myself and made it happen so if I can answer any questions or you see any dumb solutions let me know.

I got most of my stuff from www.PropaneGuy.com (http://www.PropaneGuy.com) in Canada (about $600) and also there is a place to order tanks in Ontario called "Sleegers" manufacturing that makes a unit that fits in the back deck. My tank was used off Ebay but if I were to do it again I would buy new from Sleegers, about $1000. The tank holds about 50 gallons.

I have not found any tank solutions that are suitable capacity that fit under the frame. There is a torpedo tank that could fit where the gas tank was, and also a dual tank setup that might work under the rear deck in the spare tire area, but the capacity is I think 17 gallons, which is not enough if you want to road trip it. These tanks are mostly made for British and Canadian cars with conversions.

the problem also with the propane tanks is that only the middle 60% of the tank capacity is usable.. the lower 20% is considered "empty" and doesn't provide enough pressure to feed the fuel, and the top 20% is considered a safety margin that most places will not fill incase of heat expansion, so in my 50 gallon tank I am only getting about 30 gals of usable gas.

also I use a 10 gallon forklift tank as a "jerry can" in case I am out and about and the main tank runs out. Then I just switch the hoses with a wrench and we're on the way for another 60 miles or so.

here's a link about tax credits and rebates but I haven't been able to make much sense of it yet...

http://alternativefuels.about.com/od/alternativefuels101/a/afvfaq7.htm

[bigun]

you don't pay gasoline taxes on the propane that you buy for your rig. There are books out there for propane installation unfortunately when they come up on E-Bay the bidding gets hot and heavy. Installation is pretty straight forward and there are a lot of threads here and on Pirate to help you.
Fuel mileage I don't know LOL with 37s on 3.73 gears my speedometer is so far off it ain't funny. Good thing engine will keep running no matter what direction it is pointed, no priming if you run it out, if you have a tank like mine you can hook the grill to it on the trail and have hot food. Your oil will stay cleaner longer.
Problems some times you have fun finding fuel especially in my case as the tank is bolted to the frame, that is why I drag the 100 gallon tank on the trailer with me. You will loose some fuel mileage the number I hear banded about is around 2% but you will make that up in the price per gallon which in my area for motor fuel is around $2.11 per gallon. If you use propane to heat your house here is a way to draw right off that tank and fill the average price for house hold use is $1.80 per gallon.
You will pay fuel tax if like me you have a truck mounted tank. Some places will not charge you but I find it is a good idea to have at least one ticket in your truck showing that you did . Like Jason said I pieced mine together off of E Bay and local finds. I do have the advantage in that BlackBart and his family have been using it for years.

[Gambler68]

I think only in Canada it's 'illegal' to have the tank in an enclosed space. There's no reason you couldnt sink it down into the spare tire area, with some minor fabbing. That'd at least get you back SOME interior space in the back.

[JeepsAndGuns]

AM am gonna be building a caddy 500 for my cherokee one day and I have been dreaming about building a multi port fuel injection system and wondering if it could be done, and how mutch money I would spend doing it. Plus theres tuneing, custom chips and all kinds of head aches. Plus I was thinking about running slightly higher compression for more power, and that would make me run premo gas. And with gas prices the way they are, that would really hurt the pocket book.

Seems like the more I read about propane, the more it appeals to me. Since I am building the engine, just bump up the compression a little more for the propane. It just seems like a computer-less fuel injection system to me. Plus the really clean burning pane giveing longer oil changes and a cleaner engine are a real plus.

[dwrestle]

Why can't you use the stock gas tank? Isn't propane more dangerous than gasoline? Wouldn't filling up be a pain in the butt? Heck where would you fill up at? Could you still use a carb?

[Gambler68]

Why can't you use the stock gas tank? Isn't propane more dangerous than gasoline? Wouldn't filling up be a pain in the butt? Heck where would you fill up at? Could you still use a carb?

no.
no.
not really,
anywhere that sells it,
annnnnd yes.

[Fiodh. Argus]

howdy.

nope, we can't use the stock tank because propane is stored at 300 psi and is in liquid form at that pressure. Even to use a regular BBQ propane tank or standard propane cylinder, it needs to have a "liquid" port on it, which I believe accesses the bottom part of the tank through a tube, as opposed to a vapor valve which is at the top of most tanks with a nozzle. To use a BBQ cylinder I understand it needs to be inverted to let the liquid flow out the vapor valve, into the high pressure 300psi hose. forklift tanks have both liquid and vapor valves so can be used for both or hooked up to the grill for camping.

I guess filling is a bit of a pain at times, other times it is easier and the people are much more friendly, with no lines. I just love having the remote fill nozzle on the outside and chatting with the fill up people about the jeep.

it is a bit more volatile than gasoline and could blow up if really damaged, but the tanks are much much more robust than a standard gas tank, and if you roll over down a hill a couple of times, the odds are the tank is going to stay intact and not leak or blow up, while with a gasoline tank it's gonna be pouring out all over you as you struggle to exit the vehicle in flames.... :)

just ask Bob!

or I had a friend who rolled his 76 Ferd F250 in a national forest and was fined $1000 for polluting when the dual tanks of gasoline emptied.

anyhow, to me it smells better and it's also 60% cleaner in ozone forming hydrocarbons so better for the ol' global warmin' and cleaner even than ethanol or natural gas. (just read that today at the goverment links above.) plus as mentioned, no carbon soot acting as sandpaper in your engine, so much longer engine life.

definitely worth a look. And the same carb can be used for a hydrogen set up if we ever get the opportunity.


some other notes I learned from a guy who did conversions... advance the timing 10 degrees past stock and disconnect the vacuum advance line , and use cooler spark plugs.

I would love to hear any other tips you guys who are running it have found?

[bigun]

Why can't you use the stock gas tank?
No propane has to be under pressure to remain a liquid.

Isn't propane more dangerous than gasoline?
Not really the tanks are stronger than your gasoline tank. You do need to have a way to inform rescue workers that you have propane on board because if the tank gets hot enough it could explode.

Wouldn't filling up be a pain in the butt?
Nope it is under pressure and generally takes no longer than filling with gasoline. When we fill off the trailer tank it can take up to 15 minutes or so simply because we are using the pressure off the tank and not pumping it.

Heck where would you fill up at?


KOAs, Hardware stores, Propane dealers, the propane tank in your back yard, the propane tank in somebody else's back yard (with permission of course), Gas stations...

Could you still use a carb?

The setup I use is a dual fuel in other words I could use either gasoline or propane. I don't because it would to much of a hassle resetting the timing every time I switched. Now if you have a fuel injected with computer controlled ignition you would have the best of both worlds you could run gasoline to get to the trail then switch to propane on the trail. With a carb you have to run gasoline through it if IRC once for every two tanks of propane to keep the gaskets and seals wet.

[Fiodh. Argus]

cool

[bigun]

My 88 F350 tow truck will be dual fuel if and when I
A. get it paid off
B. Then have the money to work on it!
I was discussing with BlackBart yesaterday the idea of putting my D250 on propane now that the price of gas has gone so high. He thinks we have enough parts the only problem will be the tank and hoses.

[bigun]

Hmm I found this site looks like it might have some good info.
http://fuelsforum.rasoenterprises.com/index.php
(http://fuelsforum.rasoenterprises.com/garage.php)

[Bill USN-1]

I installed a dual fuel system on an IH 304 last year.
Write up here. http://www.binderbulletin.org/forums/showthread.php?t=56997

I used the standard GM TBI system and then added the gas flow hose from the LPG system to the throttle body. When I flip the switch to turn on the lpg it turns off the injectors and fuel pump but the ignition still runs on the TBI 7747 computer.

This vehicle is driven in the Netherlands where LPG is 1/2 the price of gas making the conversion worth it.

In the US the price difference is not really worth the cost of the conversion. It has to be something you just want to do and not for cost savings.

You will get less mileage for the same fuel cost.

Other items to note is just like a car to FI system, to be optimized it uses an O2 sensor for feed back.

The LPG system should have the same control or, like a carb, you are just dumping unb urned gas out the exhaust.

The AFR for LPG is IIRC ~15.5:1 and the gas is 14.7:1 so you can't use the same circuit. I am looking into a conversion box to be inline of the O2 that will turn on when switching to LPG.

I am also gathering parts for a LPG MPPI system that will run a gas TBI system on top and multiport injectors on the manifold for propane.
All using a feedback loop system.

I just returned from another scout meet that was 12hr drive each way.
There are definately times that ou will NOT be able to fill up with propane.
You have to do additional planning for any trips.
There are ups and downs to every system.
For the US I just haven't seen anything better then a FI system or just run a diesel with WVO. But again it's the ROI-return on investment. If it cost you $1,000 to make a complete conversion, how long will it take to recoupe the money in savings?

http://www.binderbulletin.org/photopost/data/587/1534Dual_fuel_injection024.JPG


http://www.binderbulletin.org/photopost/data/587/1534Dual_fuel_injection025.JPG

[bigun]

Thanks for the write up!
Total investment on Crom is somewhere around $300. of course I pieced mine together from various sources, and had BlackBart and his dad's experience to fall back on.

[Fiodh. Argus]

that's good info - fuel injection is a whole other can of worms I am afraid to even think about! It's probably much better behaved.

Roy at Propaneguy.com told me one other note on that Impco set up (that I sometimes have trouble remembering) - turning the adjustment knob in (tightening) leans the carb out.

[Bill USN-1]

Thanks for the write up!
Total investment on Crom is somewhere around $300. of course I pieced mine together from various sources, and had BlackBart and his dad's experience to fall back on.

$300 is about right for any used parts conversion.
It cost me about the same for a TBI EFI conversion and that includes $75 for a new fuel pump.

When converting from a carb, any system is better for off roading.
But you will not see any monetary gain with the LPG system.
The FI system will at least net you a little better mileage.

So a combination works out good depending on the availability of propane and how long your trip is going to last in the woods.

[bigun]

Hmm I don't know tank on truck is a 48 gallon and the trailer has a 100 gallon! I have never had problems finding fuel just how much do I want to pay for it. My first trip to Ouray I eneded paying more than gasoline because the people at the Texaco charged me not only the road tax and state sales tax!

[Bill USN-1]

I think you are proving my point.
You had to adjust how you plan out your trips just to make it.
You made the conversion and added a seperate 48 gal propane tank.
Meaning you probably took a lot of cargo space to do it.

Then to have enough on a trip, you carry an additional 100gals to ensure you have enough. Or you have to map out where you can buy it.
It sounds like you only offroad and trailer your vehicle to and from on the trailer with the extra tank on it.

I run my stock 33 gal fuel tank in the stock location. I drive my vehicle to and from the offroading. I don't trailer it.
I do carry a 2 gal emergency fuel can.

I would say you are doing real good to put a system together with a spare 100 gal tank all for under $300. You must have a lot of good friends with parts.

Like I said, anything is better then a carb.
But the right system depends on the individual and the situation.

To go to propane on a truck still driven on the street(and legally)buying propane to get less MPG or an increase of cost per mile, just doesn't seem like the best option.
I would love for our government to remove the taxes on alt fuels for those of us will to change. But The pumps aren't readily avail and the cost is almost the same.

[bigun]

To clear up your ideas Crom is not a trailer queen right now he gets driven every where he goes! Yes it does take a bit more planning when running propane than it does gasoline but hey that is half the fun. Large tank is permenatly mounted not just for road trips. Cargo space wise I can and have carried everything I need for a week on board, the trailer just makes it easier plus it allows me to bring back any Jeep goodies I might find. Here are a few pictures of Crom
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/jeep_build_pics_280_%28Small%29%7E0http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/7-21-061.jpg
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/jeep_build_pics_276_%28Small%29.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/jeep_build_pics_277_%28Small%29%7E0

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/jeep_build_pics_277_%28Small%29%7E0

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/jeep_build_pics_281_%28Small%29.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/ouraytrail.jpg

[hcm]

I've been running mine for about 2500 miles and would never switch back to gas. Here on Vancouver Island, propane is 64.9 cents per litre and gas is @1.25 per litre. My mpg is lower but it still saves on my fuel bill. My tanks are underneath the cargo floor where my auxillary tank was. They are 27 gallon tanks filled to 80% and i've run them dry twice trying to find out how far i can go on a fill-up. I kept a bbq tank and a transfer hose with me untill i figured out my safe range. I purchased a sending unit to work with my dash guage and it is more accurate than it was on gas. I used second hand parts that i replaced the seals and gaskets on. I did buy some new parts from The Propane Guy, a guy whos specialty is propane for automotive use. When i bought the Jeep, it ran o.k. but not as good as it is now. Great power and it is also good for the motor, as others have mentioned.

[18cherokee]

my wagoneer is also a dual fuel set up, as are many of the sj's cruising down under. some have tanks inside, behind the rear seats, mine is where the spare tyre used to be. to save from body panel damage, the gas filler / cap was put smack bang on the rear bumper rather than rear quarter panel.

lpg or propane costs me about us$1.32 per gallon.

as mentioned previously, i too generally only run propane (we call it LPG) but do run petrol through her about once a month or so. the timing is off & she shakes a bit, but i figure its good for the engine / seals etc once in a while.

pros:
- very cheap, about a third of aust's petrol price
- environmentally friendlier - no smoke from exhaust unlike when on petrol :o
- extended range (if needed)

cons:
- fill her up more often due to smaller tank capacity
- loss in acceleration power
- slower to start in the morning & can stall when cold
- many service stations only have 1 or 2 propane pumps so it can be a bit of a wait
- doesnt run as smooth when switched back to petrol

not really a case of pros outweighing the cons here, but so what? i'd be terribly out of pocket if i were running straight petrol :thumbsup:

[Bill USN-1]

I just topped off the tanks in the dual fuel truck here in the Netherlands...
LPG was .41 euro/lt and gas is 1.25 euro/lt. (3.8 litres per gallon) I can pull into almost any gas station in Holland and they have a LPG pump.
So yes it does make sense here. You can actually run cheaper then on gas/petrol. Just like guys in OZ and Canada have mentioned.

But the main discussion was for propane conversions in the USA where prices are not much cheaper then gas and you will get less MPG then on gas. There are not really any gas stations that have designated LPG pumps like there are in other parts of the world.
So the ONLY real advantage is the offroad capability.
Which is a huge improvement over a carb.

And as I mentioned before, the system selected depends on the individuals situation.
There is no one answer, and to try and say your selection is best or the only way is not giving the whole picture.
There are states that charge on road taxes if you use it in a vehicle. Some charge different taxes if you declare the truck as propane powered.

Bottom line, do your home work and chose your sytem wisely.

No one will tell about the time they had to stop driving at midnight to sit in the UHaul parking lot or KOA campground until 8am so they could fill thier tank back up.
It was all in the trip planning!!!

[joe]

Kinda makes you wonder why more cars didn't come like this new.;)
The US generally doesn't have the infrastructure in place to support wide use LPG in vehicles. It's ok locally where you know your local grange/Cenex type store that fills BBQ bottles or delivers to homes and will fill a vehicle but if you're traveling out of town like around here you'd spend all your time and fuel money driving around(and prolly way out of your way) trying to get filled up.
Here home use LPG is at or over $3/gal. Since you need 10-20% more LPG to go the same distance as gasoline the cost and hassles of installing the tank etc isn't worth the minor savings when you add in the PITA factor trying to find a place that will even fill a vehicle tank. Good plan though in a place like OZ where LPG is about half the cost of gasoline.

[cowspyrsy]

Finding LPG doesn't seem to be a problem around here & super cheap compared to gas--$1.53/gal for LPG vs $3.25/gal for gas. If you only lose a couple mpg on the switch, this seems like a real good idea.

[Fiodh. Argus]

if you build the motor for propane with higher compression (or add a supercharger) it should really be a performer.

wow I would really love to add a paxton blower or a 6-71 and may do that someday.

[hcm]

Just talked to my machine shop guy today about my new motor. I am building it specifically for propane unlike my current 360. More compression(10 to 1), ported heads, 1-3/4" headers and a mild cam. The heads have been milled for a comp. increase and bronze wall valve guides installed. All of this is basic performance stuff, yet on gas would need 94 octane at least. The stock car team i worked with several years ago had a tow rig with a 440, turbocharged and running on propane. The truck was as much fun to drive as the race car. And cheaper to run as well. We used a map,printed by a large propane distributer, that showed all of the automotive filling stations that they served, and the hours of operation. We planned our road trips around that guide. Very useful, but i haven't seen one in a couple of years.

[grand_wag_85]

What about forklift tanks on a tadrack?:D Knowing my luck I'd prolly get pulled over cause the cop thought it was some kinda keg:rolleyes:

[Ole' Mud & Guts]

My reason for wanting to convert to propane is that I want to be rid of a carb, and not gain a computer. My rig is not a daily driver, it does drive on the road to get to the trail. The roof is chopped from the windshield back, so ventilation is not an issue. Every gas station around my house also dispenses propane, so that does not seem to be an issue. Thanks for the info.

[BlackBart]

My two cents. My dad's 74 GMC 4wd 3/4 ton with 34"LTB's 4spd/205 gets right at 15 mpg running propane. And that is with a low compression POS autozone cheap rebuilt 350 with the rings washed out by the previous owner. This is with no O2 sensor, just an old fossil impco 300 mixer. This is as good as or better than it would get running what passes for gasoline these days.
Right now Petrol is $3.40 a gallon, propane is $1.68. If you knocked off the road tax(God knows where that dissappears) it would bring the price of petrol down to $2.80 per gallon. If it wasn't cheaper to run propane, my dad wouldn't be running it in everything he drives. We even burn it in my front end Allis chalmers loader. Which we have been running for the last month, and you can't even tell the engine has been started by looking at the oil.
Plus, no fuel pump drama, no vapor locking, and no elektronik boxes to strand you when the magick smoke leaks out.:D

[Fiodh. Argus]

yeah, so simple, that's one of my favorite things.. turn the knob in leans it out, and that's it!

BlackBart - I wish propane was that cheap here, it's $2.59 a gallon at the Flying J in Lebec, CA but still it's a bit cheaper and a lot cleaner than gas.

I am wondering if you've ever seen such a thing as a safety valve for the tank where if the hose were to get disconnected from the tank in a crash, it would automatically shut the propane at the valve?

[hcm]

It is called an excess flow valve and in Canada,any new conversions are required to have one in the tank. My tank has two of them. The first one is on the remote fill hose into the tank. If the hose fails, the check valve prevents the tank from leaking gas. Tanks with a direct fill don't need them. This also prevents theft from a tank.The second is on the feed line from the tank. This one also stops flow from the tank if too much flow occurs, but allows for normal flow rates.

[Fiodh. Argus]

excellent! I will look for one of those, thanks for the info. Any good sources?

[hcm]

http://www.nee.ca/gas/catalogue/multiplepage/NEE%2048-50.pdf
This site is a Canadian Wholesale company and they don't sell to the public. You should be able to get any HVAC or gas fitting business to get them. A local gas station ordered the parts for me. A very usefull company to deal with.

[farinspace]

What are exploding temperatures for propane?

Any flow changes at 110F temps?

Any way to easly reset timing if wanting to run both gas or propane at different times, ie: gas to trail, propane on trail?

How do you meausre use to find out how much propane you have left in the tank, having and empty/full guage?

[Fiodh. Argus]

I found that my truck didn't run well in winter 15 degree weather, it stalled or starved for fuel until it warmed up plenty so it could evaporate the lpg into a gas. as far as hot weather, I know that's the reason they only fill tanks to 80%, to allow for heat expansion without overflow or explosion. I believe it runs fine however at warmer temps.

generic gauges can be bought from propaneguy.com, they wire to a sender in the tank (must be preinstalled in the tank) or if the impedance (sp?) is correct or suitable on your regular gas gauge, it will work just the same if you hook it right up directly. My TPI gauge setup appears to be reversed and when the tank is full it shows empty and when empty it shows full, due to the way the electronics are set up. I don't know too much about how fuel gauges work but apparently some GM vs. Ford units use different polarities and some might work reversed for propane senders, or you might need to get a specific sender installed in the tank at the time of purchase.

I also have gauges on the tank, most forklift tanks have a gauge at the top.

dunno about switching timing but I think there's electronic ignitions that will do that for you.

[JpX]

From what I have read... lots of buggys that have switched from gas to propane have saved on average about 3 gallons of propane for the same type and length of wheeling trip. It is kinda hard to get a real feel for your mileage with propane because it doesn't have a guage and you would HAVE to run it absolutely empty to be able to calculate economy... also most vehicles with propane are running larger tires and different axle gearing without necessarily correcting the speedo/odometer. Just something to keep in mind.

Also keep in mind that the average octane for propane is around 103 or 104. So it will run in a low compression engine just fine. It will however excel in a higher compression engine. My roomate seems to think that 13:1 or 13.5:1 compression would be ideal.

Forgot to mention above... it also burns cleaner because it readily mixes with air = less carbon buildup and your oil will last longer between changes.

Any mileage gains are going to depend on how efficiently you were burning your gasoline in the first place. Propane is the most efficient of the Alternative fuels (not gas and diesel) but only 90% as efficient as gasoline. So if you were running really inefficient on gas and switch to propane on the same motor you might actually get mileage gains. Otherwise no.
I did all my propane research 2 years ago and lost my links but I was able to find confirmation of Propanes place in fuel efficiency chart compared to other fuels.
http://www.propanecouncil.org/trade/fleet/economics.htm
They didn't show diesel in their charts but it is better than Gasoline so its on top.

So plan for 10% drop in you per tank range of the vehicle (given same size propane storage as your gas) and when comparing propane prices to gas discount gas by 10% to get your real cost difference.

[JpX]

Why do I kill oh soo many threads?? I always manage to type something that leaves people with a bad taste in their mouth if they was to reply. Maybe it's my name JpX everyone thinks I'm some young punk what aints gots no respect er somethin.

Oh well carry on Soldier!

[Bill USN-1]

I thought it was a very truthful reply.
I read a lot of hype and half stories and it was nice to hear someone tell the truth and have facts to back it up.

Not the usual "it was the greatest mod I made" stuff.

If people don't actually do any research themselves, they will bolt on any fuel line magnet or electric turbocharger that someone recommends on a board!!

Any pressurized fuel system will make a huge improvement in offroading.
(propane, CNG, EFI, diesel)
Now fuel economy and convenience is a whole other story!!

Then you have to really look at return on investment!!
How long will it take for the system to pay for itself.
For economy...
propane-never
Diesel- someday
EFI- someday sooner

There is nothing wrong with propane and I will probably build another dual fuel system, but look at all the fact.

[Richomino]

Hey there!

..." I will probably build another dual fuel system...."

....mmm..now theres part of the problem for you....a dual fuel system is not as good / efficient / cost effective as a dedicated 'pane setup.....LPG and gasoline require different tuning....dual fuel tunes 'in between' to run decently on both, but doesnt run optimally on either.....plus you still have a gasoline carb to maintain.....electric fuel pump, etc...


I built my dedicated LPG setup off eaby parts for about $300, and with propane at less than half the price of gasoline, in less than a year I am pretty positive its paid off for itself.....and will only get better as the lower maintenance costs / longer engine life get factored in....plus...what price do you put on the lower emissions / cleaner air??

By the way, Im running an IMPCO 425 carb, Model L vaporizer, electric lockoff, on a basically stock 360 (Edel intake, MSD box, no vacuum stuff)

Later!

[Heep80]

so we can run gas/propane set up on a DD rig? cause i have a 100 gal propane tank and that would be soo sweet on my J-10.