Ehhh...The 'not safe' talk

[grand_wag_85]

Talkin with the folks while I'm home for spring break about car accidents and what not and they're trying to convince me to get something 'safer' because they think something with an airbag would fare better in an accident like when I got rear ended last year in the Dodge. I was standing still at a red light and got hit by a full size exploder going between 40-55MPH, crumpled the rear nicely but fixed up now. Anyhow, they are positively convinced that my Chero is a death-trap on wheels, then again they think all my vehicles are:huh:

I'm an EMT/Fire-Fighter so, unfortunately, I get to see alot of accidents from all walks of the automotive world and most of which being from within the last 10 years of production so I know how the newer cars fare. I KNOW how well FSJ's hold out from hanging out here so who's got pix& stories to help a worthy cause?

Thanks!

[FSJ-Earl]

A few years ago I goy hit in the driver side front by a old 80's era Cutlass. I needed to get a new centercap, a front end alignment and that is it. The Cutlass was totaled!

My 83 J10 got sideswiped by a F@rd Escort a few weeks ago, he bent my tailpipe and flattened both of HIS driver side tires, shreded his front wheel, snapped off his mirror and broke his driver side window.

For a while, my wife was driving a 90 GW and my father-in-law (professional auto body guy for 40+ years) constantly commneted on the safety of that vehicle. He did not like the reliability, but loved the safety due to being surrounded by REAL steel.

[Millerluck]

My daughter was driving to work in 12-05 in an ice storm. (I called home and tried to get her to car pool with Mom).

She was trying to make a left hand turn, but the road had a slight slope to the right. She slid to a stop along the curb and Bang! A woman in a Tahoe slammed into the back of her. She admitted to the police she was on her cell phone( didn't even get a ticket:mad: ). My daughter said she was ridding her butt most of the way too.

It pushed the rear bumper in and wrapped it tightly around the factory hitch. The left rear quarter now looks like a pushed in taco.

Her Tahoe.....well it was totaled. Jessie dove away.


Larry

[BLiP]

Well with our FSjs being so solid we take more of the impact. Newer cars have crumple zones to absorb impact and keep us safe it is one of those hey would you rather walk away or have your vehicle drive away type things. Of course with that said I had a small car that I totaled out I had fell asleep and rear ended a lady in a Toyota Tocoma 4x4 it was completely fine but my car was totaled. I was wearing my seatbelt and the airbag deployed but I still managed to crack the windsheild with my forehead and not to mention being disoriented from being deaf (airbag exploding) also the car filling up with smoke again from the airbag. I will never buy a car with a airbag again if I can help it. I have not had a wreck in my Cherokee and dont wanna either but I am sure I would come out ok I feel safe.

[fattie]

A few years ago I goy hit in the driver side front by a old 80's era Cutlass. I needed to get a new centercap, a front end alignment and that is it. The Cutlass was totaled!

My 83 J10 got sideswiped by a F@rd Escort a few weeks ago, he bent my tailpipe and flattened both of HIS driver side tires, shreded his front wheel, snapped off his mirror and broke his driver side window.

For a while, my wife was driving a 90 GW and my father-in-law (professional auto body guy for 40+ years) constantly commneted on the safety of that vehicle. He did not like the reliability, but loved the safety due to being surrounded by REAL steel.


real steel huh , maybe thats why i feel so safe driving my 65 pontiac catalina, the thing is like a tank!:drivin:

[Serious Johnson]

Well grand, your work experience certainly trumps my opinion, but I couldn't recommend one of these big ol' boats on the basis of safety. Crumple zones, airbags, anti-lock brakes, dynamic stability control, etc., etc. look to me like good, rational arguments against a simplistic "mass wins" position. And of course, these rigs are extraordinarily clumsy to boot! My daily driver at the moment is a tiny sports car that my Wag could squash like a bug. But there have been a handful of times when I've used it to drive around what would without any doubt would have been serious crashes had I been vaguely guiding a Jeep. Sorry I couldn't help.

S.J.

[Serious Johnson]

...my 65 pontiac catalina...

Temporary hijack:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Foureagles/After/DCP_2534Medium.jpg
Dear Li'l Sis's '68.
About 30 years ago, we built a hot GTO 400 for it. It'll still smoke the tars when the slushbox slumps into high gear at 100 MPH.

S.J.

[drlocke]

Most professional mechanics and body people I've talked with about heavy steel vs safety engineering opted for the heavy steel as which they trusted more.

I had a '77 Honda Civic CVCC wagon that got totaled by a light hit from a kid's '66 Chevy Impala wagon. My Honda was horseshoed and the old Chev showed no sign of damage.

Airbags are statistically known to save lives of most people, but children and petite women have been seriously injured by a deployed bag where the collision was light enough that but for the deployment they would not have sustained injury at all. When we got a later model car for my very petite gf we had one heckuva hassle trying to find someone that was willing to defeat the airbags in the car.

[mark32725]

As long as you hit something with less mass than you I would opt for the heavier vehicle with no airbag, and unless you run into a wall backed with sand that wont move I would think that would be about the only way the little car with the crumple zones would be better for the passengers...but goo example small honda hits telephone pole, people in car dead pole survives.... Big vehicle telephone pole dies passengers live...

[Heavy_Metal_Thunder_81]

Well with our FSjs being so solid we take more of the impact. Newer cars have crumple zones to absorb impact and keep us safe it is one of those hey would you rather walk away or have your vehicle drive away type things. Of course with that said I had a small car that I totaled out I had fell asleep and rear ended a lady in a Toyota Tocoma 4x4 it was completely fine but my car was totaled. I was wearing my seatbelt and the airbag deployed but I still managed to crack the windsheild with my forehead and not to mention being disoriented from being deaf (airbag exploding) also the car filling up with smoke again from the airbag. I will never buy a car with a airbag again if I can help it. I have not had a wreck in my Cherokee and dont wanna either but I am sure I would come out ok I feel safe.

I have also done the fall asleep and rear end somone too (used to work 68 hours a week). But anyway, I was drivin the Grand Marquis (still my moms at the time) and rear ended a Nissan Altima who in turn rear ended a Liberty. My car had a scratch on the grille and bumper gaurd, the Liberty was perfectly fine...the Nissan...gone. Everyone was ok but the Jeep and I were the only 2 to drive away.

[waggy401]

Stinkin' Sacramento traffic. One problem with these things is they don't stop that quickly, even when the brakes work perfectly. Just keep a good following distance. This was 75% my fault. My wife, dog and I all walked away, and I managed to not hit anyone or anything else. The roofs on these Jeeps are tougher than they look. An airbag wouldn't have made any difference here. A vehicle is only as safe as the driver. . .

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t96/waggy401/79%20Roll/JuneLake2005107.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t96/waggy401/79%20Roll/JuneLake2005115.jpg

[tgreese]

JMO - a lot of the crumple zones and air bags are requred now that cars are built so much lighter than they used to be. The Feds mandate safety and economy - this results in cars that are routinely totaled by what we used to think of as a fender bending accident.

Physics also argues in favor of more mass ... f=ma, force equals mass times acceleration. For the same force, a more massive object will accelerate (in this case DEcellerate) more slowly. All of the restraints in your modern cars (belts, airbags, padding) work to decellerate you more slowly than the car around you. However, a big car combined with modern restraints is probably safest overall - even Consumer Reports agrees about that. However, f=ma only helps you if a less massive object strikes you - if you run into a massive barrier (say, a Sequoia redwood tree) you'll hit it with proportionally as much force as, say, a Corolla would. Then you have to depend on the passenger cabin staying intact and giving the restraints (you are wearing belts, right?) a chance to slow you down before you are crushed.

[duracell]

my wife rearended a kia optima that cut her off. she never touched the brake, and came to a complete stop with the nose of our 88 wag, that already had damage from a po, almost in his back seat. parents got a totaled car that the insurance wouldn't cover because the kid was excluded from the insurance policy,he got the ticket and a trip to the hospital after he woke up. never did any other damage other than bending up the bumper mounts a little bit.

[hardbody1]

This wasnt at speed and it was offroad but it shows why i like having real steel surrounding me.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i8/Autigers695/Cherokee/2006-12-30_230455_engine.jpg

These two pics show the damage from having the Jeep on its roof. The worst damage is the dent on the side and that one broken window. Most of the roof damage popped out. Oh and the Roof rack basket is a little bent.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i8/Autigers695/Cherokee/2006-12-30_230526_door.jpg

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i8/Autigers695/Cherokee/2006-12-30_230556_driver_window.jpg

I trust the Jeep more in a wreck than dads 07 crew cab dodge.

Kyle

[grand_wag_85]

Thanks for all the input guys. Of course I wear my seat belt, I'd be a fool not too:p I understand that a vehicle is only as safe as the driver and I try to drive as safe as I can but nobody is perfect. In 5 years of having my license so far the only accident I've had was the rear-ending, knock on wood. I can only imagine how that would have ended up had I been driving my brother's Sonata:hide:

SJ-I've seen the crumple zones 'in action' and from what I've seen on the smaller cars they help out alot in head-ons and the like but arround here alot of people total smaller cars with deer strikes, hit one in the XJ and broke a marker lens. I'm not trying to prove that the FSJ is safer than anything else out there because every car& every accident is different but I'm just trying to point out that they fare better in most accidents compared to the smaller, newer stuff on the road today.

EDIT: A friend has a '70 Catalina, that's no car I'd want to hit....

[JeepinPete]

The only thing that I do not like about most FSJ as far as an accident goes is the low back seats. You get rear ended in one of these, and whiplash is almost a given...

[motox-010]

The second day I had my Wag I lightly tapped the rear bumper of a Dodge Caravan. It dented that stupid plastic bumper where both those vertical push bar things are. I parked mine and didnt even bother to look at what mightve happened cause I knew nothin did.

Last year I was in an Olds Alero. We got T-boned by a Furd Expedition that was goin 53 MPH. To this day I have no idea how any of us walked away from that. It pushed the driver's door in 30 inches. The driver (Jake) walked away with nothin more than a scratch on his leg and a minor concussion.

[gwinn]

The larger mass usually wins and that's the best safety feature on a FSJ. Is that gonna' save your life when one of these dinosaurs headons a Ford Excursion at 65mph. Probably not. But we'll live in a similar accident with the majority of the vehicles on the road (as long as our belt is clicked).
The argument against the FSJ's road safety is the up-to-date antilock brakes and handling advantages that the newer SUV's have. That accident would be much easier to avoid in an '06 Tahoe.

[JeepNOFEAR]

I was sitting behind a sunfire at a stop sign and the car went and I looked over to look at traffic, there wasn't any because the light was red about 1/4 up the road. Anyway I let off the brake to edge up closer to the sign and for some reason the sunfire had stopped and I bumped her. Barely felt it but I got out to see if I had messed up my razor grill. Lucky my front bumper is higher than normally so no razor burn but the trunk of the sunfire was almost bent in half. Only thing that you might be able to tell I hit her was the plastic shavings on my leaf spring from her rear bumper.

[drlocke]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/drlocke/Wraparoundnot.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/drlocke/wraparound.jpg

[on-a-mission]

Well with our FSjs being so solid we take more of the impact. Newer cars have crumple zones to absorb impact and keep us safe it is one of those hey would you rather walk away or have your vehicle drive away type things.as long as you hit a vehicle with crumple zones,you'll be fine.as long as one vehicle is absorbing the damage you're helped a lot.justtry not to hit a '77 blazer or something

crumple zone hits crumple zone-great
crumple zone hits non crumple zone-fine
non crumple zone hits non crumple zone-bad

[grand_wag_85]

Never thought I'd see a TJ own a Commander like that, but, the TJ isn't stock lol.

[FSJ Guy]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/drlocke/Wraparoundnot.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/drlocke/wraparound.jpg

These are two entirely different types of accidents. One, the FSJ rolled and did not hit any fixed vertical object.

The Commander was hit broadside, IIRC, and then rolled (from striking the curb) and struck the vertical pole, which our EMT/firefighter guy will know is the equivalent of cutting a vehicle with a knife. NOTHING will fare well with an impact to a fixed vertical pole/tree.

RE FSJ safety, they are fine for most rear end and slow speed front impacts.

I have been in a 40mph (my estimate) front end impact. I knew it was coming, so I was bracing myself as much as one can. In 1993 dollars, $3K in damage to my Jeep, $0 injury damage to me and the person I struck. ($5K in damages to the 91 Jetta)

At any speed above 40 mph, I'd rather have an airbag. Which would you rather hit, the steering wheel/windshield or an airbag? A set of black eyes (I wear glasses) is preferable to a closed head injury, broken collar bone (from seat belt) or worse.

Side impacts are a different story. The bodies crunch amazingly well on these vehicles. You WILL have a lot of cabin intrusion. The height advantage works OK for us until you're hit by a F-250 or something with a similar high bumper.

I have also seen the rear seat fold up in an inverted V postion due to a side impact. It happened to someone on this forum, that's where I got the pix. I would not have wanted to be riding in the back seat when this happened, as the pssenger would have been squeezed between the seat belts and the seat. OUCH!

Are FSJ's safer than other car? Sometimes. Sometimes not. As you have already mentioned, a lot depends on the driver skill and a little depends on whether or not it's your time.

A driver was just killed recently when a semi-truck ran a stop sign and broadsided her. I drive through this intersection almost daily. Even in a larger vehicle, it still would have been a fatality accident. All the airbags in the world won't help if your internal organs are still bounced around inside you.

That said, stick with your FSJ. <g>

[Heavy_Metal_Thunder_81]

...the TJ isn't stock lol.

I doubt the after-market rims and tires helped it much :rolleyes:

[drlocke]

My big problem with that wraparound Jeep is that I'd always been under the impression that those poles were engineered to break away easily so that such penetration wasn't as likely to occur. I suppose if the car was moving at a high rate of speed the inertia of the pole would come into play to some degree.

And the old Wag threw practically everything, and the passenger compartment, while runkled a bit, remained intact to a degree that one can imagine the passengers walking away--provided they were buckled in.

You're right when you say that it is largely up to the left-front passenger....

[bigbearduff]

got the story on the above picture???

[Stuka]

It should be noted that TreeSharks wag (the green one posted above) was going 70mph, and the body came off the frame because of the 3" body lift he had. As I recall, he only had minor scratches and bruising.

My cherokee got t-boned by a '93 4x4 K1500 chevy truck going an estimated 30mph. It **** near rolled the cherokee over, but it did more damage to the chevy then it did to my cherokee. My knee was sore the day after, but I was fine. None of the damage go transfered into the passenger compartment.

[drlocke]

It should be noted that TreeSharks wag (the green one posted above) was going 70mph, and the body came off the frame because of the 3" body lift he had. As I recall, he only had minor scratches and bruising.

My cherokee got t-boned by a '93 4x4 K1500 chevy truck going an estimated 30mph. It **** near rolled the cherokee over, but it did more damage to the chevy then it did to my cherokee. My knee was sore the day after, but I was fine. None of the damage go transfered into the passenger compartment.

Thanks for identifying that one. :thumbsup: I remember taking it from a posting here, and also vaguely remember the occupant sustaining only minor injury.

The other pic IIRC was a fatal.

[fattie]

Temporary hijack:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/Foureagles/After/DCP_2534Medium.jpg
Dear Li'l Sis's '68.
About 30 years ago, we built a hot GTO 400 for it. It'll still smoke the tars when the slushbox slumps into high gear at 100 MPH.

S.J.





:( *sigh* mines 4 door

hooray for pics. http://aycu05.webshots.com/image/10644/2002445836534888433_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002445836534888433)http://aycu19.webshots.com/image/12098/2002419479897363095_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002419479897363095)http://aycu28.webshots.com/image/14227/2002451064242232064_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002451064242232064)http://aycu23.webshots.com/image/13982/2002432846042306583_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002432846042306583)http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/12659/2002418580461462171_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002418580461462171)http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/11672/2002404473856686667_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002404473856686667)http://aycu11.webshots.com/image/14290/2002470709242882189_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002470709242882189) sorry for the hijack but i love big old steel boats.

[grand_wag_85]

I doubt the after-market rims and tires helped it much :rolleyes:
Only kidding:p

As per that Commander, if the front passengers walked away it would have been a miracle as the pole is pushed nearly to the floors:(

Thanks again for all the replies guys, hopefully I can use some of the stuff posted here to sway them off my case.

[tyrodtom]

Highway deaths now are about the same as they were in 1970, even though there are about twice the number of vehicles on the road now and I don't know how many more accidents now. There were small cars on the highway in 69-70 but only a fraction of what they are now. I've been in bodywork since 73, and there is no doubt in any car the passenger compartment is surrounded by a sheet-metal sponge that sacrifices itself to keep crash forces low for the passengers. Of course none of that does you a lot of good if you're not belted in, that includes air bags. My daily driver is a Jetta, when i'm in it, I try to keep the same mindset as when I ride a motorcycle. My last highway accident was in 69, I feel safer on a circle track than the highway. On the track i've got a 5 point 3in. belt system, helmet, nomex suit, fully padded roll cage, fuel cell, and everybodies going in the same direction, usually.

[The PIG Smith]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/drlocke/Wraparoundnot.jpg


I was first told this wreck was the result of poor man's lift kit, Tall Blocks.
Some folks strongly disagree with me, but blocks scares me and I feel they are not the safest way to lift a rig, especially on the front axle.

Then later, I was told this accident was the result of a extremely tall body lift kit.

I do not know what was the cause of this wreck.

[Jeepstress]

He was on the highway cruising at highway speeds when a kid in a small car fell asleep at the wheel and clipped him the rear quarter. He spun, flipped and rolled. The body separated from the chasis at the body lift mounts. IIRC, the body lift was 3 inches.

[grand_wag_85]

He was on the highway cruising at highway speeds when a kid in a small car fell asleep at the wheel and clipped him the rear quarter. He spun, flipped and rolled. The body separated from the chasis at the body lift mounts. IIRC, the body lift was 3 inches.
That's the way I remember it too.

[CMMagnussen]

Well that finalized that.... im selling the 3" body lift thats sitting in my garage

[Gambler68]

I know firsthand hitting a cow in a 68 J3000@50mph sorta sucks. :eek:



For the cow. :D

[Heavy_Metal_Thunder_81]

I know firsthand hitting a cow in a 68 J3000@50mph sorta sucks. :eek:



For the cow. :D

Is it anything like the cow in the "Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Begining" with the Bronco?

[grand_wag_85]

I know firsthand hitting a cow in a 68 J3000@50mph sorta sucks. :eek:



For the cow. :D
That was you?

[JeremySmith]

My best advise on crashes is - stay out of them! On thing I've picked up from riding my motorcycle is watching the other people, and picking out the jerk thats going to pull out in front of me, or try to sideswipe me. If someones following to close - I give more cushion up front, and if I'm stopped, I'm watching behind and ready to get out of the way. Paranoid, yes, but its saved my bacon a couple times already.

As for the safest thing I've ever had - It was probably the 2000 1 ton dodge dually, extended cab & 4x4. I'd have hated to be a prius or econobox in that things way. Mass & Airbags!

[Deus]

ive always been under the impression that bigger is better, And ive been in two accidents one in was hitting a oil truck with a nissan sentra, the other was getting rear ended really hard by a big ram van in a s-10, though i was fine in both accidents, i find it hard that a civic with all these safty features would survive an accident as well as a liftted fsj with heavy bumpers, i think the next few years with gas prices the way they are, they'll me alot more little cars on the road and if you have a big heavy fsj i'd feel pretty safe. I'm glad i live where i do speeds rarely exceed 65mph and most driving is around 35-40mph here. Some of our rigs are equiped with roll cages(help in side impacts too) and safty harnesses(some probally wear them for daily driving).
with 75% small cars with crumple zones, id think the steel dinosaurs will reign:)

[Gambler68]

That was you?

yup! cow flew 40' in the air. Jeep stopped and swung around, just crushed the front metal a little. Swapped the whole front clip and a new raddy and it was fine.

later jeeps are flimsier, in my opinion.

[grand_wag_85]

Ah, didn't that happen out in Nevada or something like that?

[jamsni]

IMHO, air bags came along when the feds told states to enforce seat belt laws and they would deal with the mfg's. I am an advocate of seat belts in any vehicle (EXCEPT the auto latch kind that release when the door opens) but I would prefer to not have an airbag if possible. To me, too many people choose to drive without seatbelts (and that is their choice) and it is for those that airbags were created. Think of the name: Supplemental Restraint System. Meant to work with your seatbelts, but if you don't wear them it will at least help keep your carcass inside your car.

Besides, if they are so great, why do some vehicles come with a kill switch for the passengers? If for children and smaller framed people, how many drivers activate them for larger sized passengers? I would rather wear the seatbelt and have some steel around me.

I'm waiting for someone to develop the insulating foam Ford and some others are using in the pillars to be able to be sprayed in an accident like in 'Demolition Man'. Probably just a matter of time...

[DanHS]

I remember TreeShark's GW having a 3" body lift too, and there was speculation as to whether the grade 8 bolts weren't soft enough to bend, so they began to shear until alll of them sheared apart. Still amazing that after rolling at that speed, he walked away with a couple scratches and a bruise from the seatbelt.

As for FSJ's being safer, I feel better in this thing than in a small car. The only time I think a small car would be more beneficial, is if you needed to dodge something or stop really fast. In my Mustang I've dodged a few close calls and stopped very quickly to avoid rearending someone, but I can't say that the GW couldn't have made those moves. I think I would have managed to escape those accidents in the GW too. Twice in the GW I've had to slam on the brakes to stop because some idiot pulled out in front of me, and I've managed to stop in time. The one time I was in an accident, when a girl drove right into the side of my car as I passed, I was in the Mustang. There was absolutely nothing I could have done, she moved very quickly as I passed so I couldn't see her turning into my lane. I wish I had been in the GW, I would have tossed her hatchback back into her lane, and only suffered some slight denting to my rocker panel.

I'm not too impressed by the handling of newer suvs, I haven't driven many other suvs, but I really did not enjoy the handling of a newer (I think like 2000-02) Explorer, it had no real feel to the steering and wallowed clumsily through turns. A '99 F150 I drove was almost scary it was so clumsy. XJs handle nicely though. Perhaps a more street oriented import suv would handle decently, but getting one would be silly, add another suv to what you have now.
Traction control on one of these new things I think is good for someone who doesn't understand the mechanics of how a vehicle handles and needs a guiding hand to keep them from losing control. I think traction control would keep messing me up by changing things as I try to do something, so I'd never have it on.
And airbags, well, I don't like having things driven at me by explosives much. I've seen airbags hurt people in less serious accidents, although there is no question that in a high speed or head-on collision, you'd want an airbag. Airbags tend to be expensive though, so if a minor little fender bender that merely cracks your plastic front bumper sets off the airbag, it may be more costly to replace the airbag than the car, if it's not a newer car.

Another thing to consider is collisions with deer, pretty common in your area I'd think. In that case the deer doesn't have enough mass to hurt you in a collison unless it comes through the windshield, which isn't likely with a truck, but very possible with a smaller car. Of course it'll mess up a small car really badly, especially one with crumple zones and thin sheetmetal. A truck with any decent bumper should just toss the thing aside without any damage. Hard to justify a small car when you have a much better chance of losing the small car to merely a deer (and risk the deer going over the hood into the windshield), than getting into an accident with another vehicle. Plus if a small car gets hit by a big one, you get shoved around and smashed, truck bumpers often tend to come up to window height. Since everyone decides they must drive around in an SUV today, you kinda have to fight fire with fire; drive the same sized thing they do or get smushed.

[Gambler68]

Ah, didn't that happen out in Nevada or something like that?

I don't know about cowkilling in Nevada, but I smacked one here. Got my insurance to pay for the cow, fixed my own truck. Looks my post on it got lost with the board software change :mad:

I would have been dead in any other vehicle we owned at the time other than my Jeep, I know that.

[Rande]

Like race cars, the vehicle comes apart to absorb the energy. The engine/tranny/Tcase go their way, the frame goes its way, the body goes its way. the people walk away.

We don't need crumple zones, we just use the other guy's.

[grand_wag_85]

I don't know about cowkilling in Nevada, but I smacked one here. Got my insurance to pay for the cow, fixed my own truck. Looks my post on it got lost with the board software change :mad:

I would have been dead in any other vehicle we owned at the time other than my Jeep, I know that.
Probably thinking of your accident and somebody else, Nv just came to mind for some reason...

[shimniok]

IMHO, air bags came along when the feds told states to enforce seat belt laws and they would deal with the mfg's. I am an advocate of seat belts in any vehicle (EXCEPT the auto latch kind that release when the door opens) but I would prefer to not have an airbag if possible. To me, too many people choose to drive without seatbelts (and that is their choice) and it is for those that airbags were created. Think of the name: Supplemental Restraint System. Meant to work with your seatbelts, but if you don't wear them it will at least help keep your carcass inside your car.

I recall reading that SRS airbags were developed to address the problem of stupid 18-21 year old males who didn't wear seatbelts.

I've heard of enough stories of FSJ wrecks and people walking away unscathed to feel pretty safe in mine.

I have seen a few wrecked in the junkyards and they do seem to me to have front crumple zones.

I'm sold on side airbags from the testing videos I've seen. (Seat mounted, though, to facilitate rescue crew extraction) Seems to help with head injuries in side impact. A guy I knew pretty well died in a side impact due to brain injury.

I'm not a giant fan of front airbags however, due to all the associated problems. I'm not convinced they're really necessary.

All that said I drive a Subaru Impreza WRX which got the 5 star crash rating and has more airbags than a national political convention.

Michael

[tyrodtom]

As i've said I work in a body shop. Last year we never went thru a week in which we didn't have at least one vehicle in the shop with deer damage. Anyone who has hunted deer has probably seen them do their straight-up jump when surprised, they also do that when they see a car coming at them sometimes, so don't think because you're higher in the air in a suv you're safe from them coming over the hood and thru the windshield. They don't all just stay planted on 4 feet and wait to die. A suv windshield is no stronger than a Hondas. When i'm driving my J10 i've usually got the trailer with a car on it attached, not a very manuverable combination, so I know i've got to be extra watchful.

[drlocke]

As i've said I work in a body shop. Last year we never went thru a week in which we didn't have at least one vehicle in the shop with deer damage. Anyone who has hunted deer has probably seen them do their straight-up jump when surprised, they also do that when they see a car coming at them sometimes, so don't think because you're higher in the air in a suv you're safe from them coming over the hood and thru the windshield. They don't all just stay planted on 4 feet and wait to die. A suv windshield is no stronger than a Hondas. When i'm driving my J10 i've usually got the trailer with a car on it attached, not a very manuverable combination, so I know i've got to be extra watchful.

What I've seen of deer--and around here plenty can be seen--they generally don't let themselves be hit that easily. The big problem is that sometimes they are being chased by something else besides your car. In the 2 deer hit cases--one by me and one by my brother while I was a passenger in his car--both deer were being "run" by dogs. I am watchful at times when such is like to happen, such as during the hunting season. Another time on a back road I had a close encounter with a good-sized buck during hunting season, and barely avoided having him jump through my windshield. His tongue was hanging out about a foot-and-a-half, which told me all I needed to know.

The big problem is that dogs can get loose from the irresponsible owner and run deer just about any time of year. And then there is the fool driver who seems not to be watchful and wary of their handling limitations, and insists on driving down narrow country lanes doing one heckuva lot more than a reasonable and recommended speed of 30 or less.

[bull4377]

I think bigger is better also! But no doubt new large vehicles are much safer than our old Waggys! New vehicles have much more rigid structures and they are designed with accidents in mind! I feel safe in my old Jeeps but I feel alot safer in my 2007 Ram with dual airbags/side curtain airbags/ABS/Stability Control. Which one would I want to be in a head on crash in?????

[mark j]

I've got pics somewhere of a collision between a 60's era dodge powerwagon and a toyota corolla. The powerwagon got the left corner front bumper turned in and a broken lens. The corolla was totalled. Worse- the 12 y/o boy in the corolla suffered abdominal injuries requiring surgery. This all happened at about 30 mph within a few blocks from home in a residential neighborhood. Size does matter. I was rearended in my '72 by a toyota camry hydroplanning at about 30-40mph. I was at a complete stop for an accident ahead of me. I had my neck hyperextended due to no headrest which gave me one intense headache and stiff neck. The camry was totalled with the engine shoved under the car and the front end folded up like an accordian including the front doors :eek: . Passenger was taken to the hospital, driver ok. I got a few minor scratches on my bumper and hitch. If I would have had head restraints I wouldn't have had any injuries at all. Overall these rigs are pretty safe. Airbags do reduce injuries, but most of the protection comes from a properly worn 3-point restraint.

[texSC]

I think FSJ's fair out great it collisions/wrecks... My first vehicle when I was 16 was the '82 Wag in my sig. It had stock tires/suspension/bumpers. I was a young driver but was usually safe short of a few accidents I was in due to lack of better judgement.

#1. I was driving down 2 lane dirt road commonly used by mudders(including myself) having deep trenches of either side of the road and many potholes.... It was raining, mud was everywhere, and I was going ~35mph!!:eek: (stupid) The potholes sent me into hydroplane, I went back and forth 3 or 4 times, then up onto the right enbankment and rolled onto the passenger side. I wasn't wearing a seatbelt, but sustained no injury. The jeep had the door panels dented in a few inches at most, no busted windows, the roof had a small dent, and one of the valve covers got bent in(fixed by hammering out) by the engine shifting it into the brake booster. I had it towed home because it was one of the first wrecks I'd ever been in and didn't know if it was safe to crank. Short of the valve cover, no other problems!!

#2. I was driving into the town of lexington (35mph) coming up to a green light... Full size chevy truck T-bones me pass. side running his light going I'd approximate at least 20mph as he was turning left & running from another hit-n-run I found out later!! I thought I was going to roll again...but it just rocked the wag pretty good, and it sat back down. It felt a little funny but I saw the guy taking off so I pulled a U-turn to try to catch him or at least his tag#. Well the rear tire was blown from the collision and the wag couldn't pull itself on 3 tires any faster than ~45mph, sparks flying everywhere from the bare wheel on pavement!! I couldn't catch him but he prolly didn't make it far as he left a nice pool of radiator fluid at the intersection as well as a lot of front end bodywork. I drove back to the light and waited on the police. To my surprise, the only damage was dented door panels, again only in a few inches!! I was wearing my seatbelt and sustained no injury. No busted glass, power windows still worked!!:D

#3. Me and some buddies went for a ride in what we call the sandhills(where they dig out sand & sale dumptruck loads full of it). There are huge holes, dropoffs, washouts, and such everywhere. Worst part---it was night and I only had the old stock yellowish dim headlights. Going along ~15mph I ran off a 6ft drop, the wag buried the front end in the sand and had no traction in the rear so we walked home for the night (only ~1mi from home). I returned the next day, used a big stick to dig out a few barrel fulls of dirt or so, and drove out. No one was injured, no seat belts(stupid though). It did ben the bumper back and bend the front driver quarter panel but not very badly, no other damage noticed.

Between these wrecks I never fixed any of the bodywork, I only fixed the tire and the valve cover!! I had this wag going down powerline trails going way too fast and hit hills and gone airborn(ALL 4 tires) without damage, though I don't know how to this day. I've driven over many trees up to ~3" diameter with stock bumper by pulling up to them and hitting the gas just to make way to turn around on a narrow trail.

I was in a junkyard once and the starter died on me way back in the yard and the wrecker offered to push me back to the front of the lot...bumper-to-bumper. He had one of those wide & flat, shiny steel bumpers on the front and warned me it may beat up my bumper. I told him I didn't care and on we went. We got the the front & HIS bumper was beat up and dented, the wag STOCK bumper only showed a few scratches!!:thumbsup:

Needless to say, I've always loved the FSJ's since I owned my first one!! I eventually killed the torque converter or transfer case or something along those lines while wheelin' in the woods in the mud... I didn't have the funds at the time to repair so I sold it. Now I'm finally back in action w/ the Cherokee(10 years later)!! I have learned alot about driving so I doubt I'll have all the excitement I once did in the Wag. I drive a '90 Celica usually though due to low mpg in the Jeep, but feel MUCH safer in the 'ole steel tank due to previous experience!:fsj:

[dngrs1]

My girlfriend and I were coming back from Las Vegas, in her '03 Taurus, after she had an epidural in her lower back, cruise control set at 65mph. We were hit broadside by a Toyota Corolla crossing the highway. The lady driving the Corolla was looking the other way when she crossed the highway. Put us into a 180. I regained control of the car, going backwards, felt the seatbelts tighten, untill we came to a stop on the other side of the highway. Thank God noone was coming from the other direction. Other than my girlfriend going into shock, no injuries. I do feel safer with steel around me, but what if I were to come in cantact with another steel boat such as mine? I think that antilock brakes and airbags and stability control,etc. create a false sense of security for the driver and actually promote irresponsible driving. I don't think hours behind the wheel makes you a better driver. Driving skills are learned. People should "learn" to drive. Knowing the capabilities and limits of your vehicle and how to drive defensively make accident free drivers. If you want to learn how to drive defensively, ride a motorcycle.

[twmattox]

A few years ago I was in an accident in my '84 CJ-7 (small Jeep). Basically, what is considered the most dangerous accident (front left to front left head on collision). I don't remember much, but I know I was going 30 and he said he was doing 45. Basically, like a 75mph run into a brick wall. Well, since the Jeep ran taller than his Toyota Corolla, I ran up his fender, flipped on my side (basically used him as a ramp)...no one was injured at all. My Jeep was totalled and his corolla had $16k in damage (I still don't see how, no air bag deployment just a dented fender and lost mirror)...but that is what you have insurance for. I am just thankful everyone walked away...

So, what do I do...I buy a CJ-8 for my daily driver. Unless I am in an accident with a truck or lifted SUV, I "feel" safer riding high. No real science behind it...but more a feeling...

[Jayrodoh]

Back in 05, 2 weeks after I completed my first FSJ, I lost control (being stupid and in 2WD) in the snow and hit a telephone pole sideways. I tell you I'm glad we were in that thing compared to anything else. The pole splintered pretty good but managed to push the A pillar about 10" in and blow the dash apart. Everything else I own wouldn't have done so well.

[Wagabond]

FSJ's are actually much lighter than the 6000 pound estimate everybody here gives, around the same weight class as most modern mid sized SUVs, andf definately lighter than todays full sizes. But our weight is in steel, theirs is in electronics.

[PlasticBoob]

Talkin with the folks while I'm home for spring break about car accidents and what not and they're trying to convince me to get something 'safer' because they think something with an airbag would fare better in an accident like when I got rear ended last year in the Dodge. I was standing still at a red light and got hit by a full size exploder going between 40-55MPH, crumpled the rear nicely but fixed up now. Anyhow, they are positively convinced that my Chero is a death-trap on wheels, then again they think all my vehicles are:huh:

I'm an EMT/Fire-Fighter so, unfortunately, I get to see alot of accidents from all walks of the automotive world and most of which being from within the last 10 years of production so I know how the newer cars fare. I KNOW how well FSJ's hold out from hanging out here so who's got pix& stories to help a worthy cause?

Thanks!
Um, how old are you?? :confused:

[Jan]

Hi,

I think the most important safety feature that makes a FSJ less safe than a modern car is the lack of anti-lock brakes. I think that our beasts are in winter a bit dangerous, they drive really well (in 4WD) and you are still superior to most modern cars. But the brakes are worse than everybody elses ! Even if you make an emergency stop on dry pavement, the wheels will lock and the car just slide on.

For most cases I strongly believe in mass: During my service time, I experienced a crash of an ambulance car (a light 1.5 ton truck of the size of a Ford Econovan, with short hood and engine half way into the driver's compartment) against a Honda Accord. The paramedic in the rear had been standing, and did not even hurt himself, the Honda was hit in the side, just pushed away and was totalled. The Honda driver spent a day in the hospital for a fractured arm. Nobody in the ambulance was hurt.
Another time a young fellow in an Audi A3 (size of a Golf) crashed in the back of my 1962 camper, a converted 2 ton light truck. My rear light was broken, his car had a couple of thousand Dollars damage to his hood and fenders. Nobody was hurt.
A 1970ies video shows the impact of a 10 ton truck (ok, that is a bit bigger than a FSJ) into some smaller cars (takes a while before it opens). The test driver at the time did not even wear seatbelts.
http://www.eulan.de/div/crashtest.mpeg

I agree completely with the other guys: the moment you hit something that won't gie way, a FSJ is probably quite unsafe. Especially mine with my wooden steering wheel... Another reason to drive carefully.

But, after all, there are so many fun things that are supposed to be not safe: Riding my bike, traveling, hiking to remote locations, even in bed you can die ! And if you just sit on your couch, you get fat and (you bet), ou die as well ! Better to have some fun in the meantime, I would say...

Cheers

Jan

[Heavy_Metal_Thunder_81]

But, after all, there are so many fun things that are supposed to be not safe: Riding my bike, traveling, hiking to remote locations, even in bed you can die ! And if you just sit on your couch, you get fat and (you bet), ou die as well ! Better to have some fun in the meantime, I would say...

Cheers

Jan

Best words ever spoken :)

[grand_wag_85]

Um, how old are you?? :confused:
Old enough to be on my own but young enough to still catch flak:rolleyes::lol:

[Wagabond]

FSJ: Honda is our crumple zone.

[Dean]

I wonder if the steering wheel out of a '95-'96 xj cherokee would fit on the GM column that SJs have. These 2 years of xjs have a fully self contained mechanically activated airbag. Any thoughts? Heck they even say JEEP on them (I have a '95 dd).
Dean.

[FSJ Guy]

Good idea in theory, but I suspect the problem is the engineering. The airbag has to be deployed at just the right moment so that it is fully inflated BEFORE you do a face plant into the center of it. Too early of a deployment and the bag is DE-flated by the time you hit it. Too late of a deployment and the bag will "punch" you in the face. Ouch.

When designing a new vehicle, they are able to calculate (structural analysis, etc) exactly when the airbag should deploy and in what types of impacts.

[chrisnsarah]

From Aug 2005,

I ended up T-boning a suburban that ran a stop sign at 45 +mph. My only injury was the bruise from the seatbelt. I could still open both doors.


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w160/schowalterc/NewImage.jpg

No pics, but the damage to the suburban was much more intense.