A little snag in the diesel swap emissions WA state

[DieselSJ]

Everything was going great. CWX called and told me the engine was at their dock. UPS delivered my $9.99 Ebay special 1250lb engine stand. The local rental yard even has a cherry picker reserved for me so I can unload this thing tonight.

Then I get the email. This is a response from a question that I sent to the WA Dept of Ecology (they run the emissions program here in WA) when I asked about registering the Waggy with a diesel.

"The basic rules for an engine swap are that you may only install an engine in a vehicle that could have come from the factory with that engine type. Example, if your 1987 came from the factory with a gasoline engine but could have been ordered with a diesel you may install it provided that you include all of the emission controls and devices that were applicable. If a diesel engine was not an option, you may not install a diesel engine."

Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley?!?!?!? He sent the section of RCW that applies to emissions, but it says nothing about the fuel. It just talks about retaining the emission controls for the ENGINE, not the chassis. I think I'm going to actually need to call them.

If it doesn't work out, I may have a 1997 6.5 (17K miles) with DB2-4911 pump for sale.

[automan]

i'd imagine that they wouldnt have a problem if you told them you are converting it to bio-diesel.

[g503]

how about a specialty vehicle , they must have a class for that ,i would just wear them down with questions and see what happens

[TexasJ10]

In 1986, a 4 cylinder 126 CU Renault turbo diesel was offered as an option on downsized wagoneers, cherokees and comanches. The build date on your full size Wag may be 1986. It may not be too big a stretch to assert that a diesel was an available option for a wagoneer.

[ February 19, 2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: TexasJ10 ]

[mcinfantry]

i had a 1986 diesel cherokee, i always thought it was a nice truck... drove REAL well, had it in 1990

[Glenn_tx]

You're not gonna let a little thing like that get in the way of this swap are you?

I'd do it first then figure out the little bs things. If that doesn't work, move.

[DieselSJ]

mcinfantry - please tell me that it was a full size Cherokee and that it was a dealer installed option!

TexasJ10 - I like that idea. If I can show that it was a factory option, then I should be OK.

I talked to another guy from DOE and he said that as long as I kept the emissions parts as they were installed on the engine, then I can swap in anything that I want. The problem is that he isn't willing to put that into writing for me. Next step is to go visit the company that handles the smog check program up here (DOE contracts the work - DOE does not perform the smog checks) and get their opinion. After all, they are really the ones who are going to say yes or no.

[joe]

You have any relatives in another part of WA whose addy you could use? Only the Seattle metro areas/counties along the I-5 corridor have smog checks. Most of the rest of state doesn't.

[drives mopars]

how about a 4 cyc cummins

ive seen them in dakotas

[DieselSJ]

Well, I got back into the guy's face about it. Here is a small exerpt -

"I see nothing in that section of Washington law that forbids the replacement of a gas engine with a diesel. Is that your personal interpretation of this section of code, or is there a section somewhere that specifically addresses conversions?"

Here is the section of law that he sent. I can see how he would interpret the law as he did, but if you do interpret it in that fashion then you would also be breaking the law by swapping engines of a different size - like 258 to a 360, or even a 360 to a 401.

WAC 173-421-100 Emission control systems. A person shall not remove or render inoperable any component or change any element of design of a motor vehicle including adjustments outside the range of manufacturer's specifications that could affect the amount of air contaminants emitted from that vehicle subject to the following conditions:
(1) Components of emission control systems may be disassembled and assembled for the purpose of repair and maintenance. These components or elements of design shall be restored to proper working order when they are repaired or maintained.
(2) When components of emission control systems require replacement they may be removed and replaced with a part intended by the vehicle manufacturer as a replacement part for that specific vehicle. Under circumstances established by the United States Environmental Protection Agency, an aftermarket replacement part may be used. A replaced part shall be installed and adjusted so that it is in proper working order.

[TexasJ10]

I can interpret the section you provded as you have, or I can read it to mean that as long as you have not made modifications that increases the air contaminants outside the manufacturers specifications of the factory installed engine, you are in compliance. Do you have any idea what the requirements are for your 360 verses the emissions levels you can reach with your diesel? The only emissions teting for a diesel in your area is that it pass an opacity test. Presumably this means that the other pollutants present in a gasoline engine are not present with the diesel. You may do more to clean the air there by putting the diesel in, than by keeping your old engine. BTW, the full emissions provisions can be found at:

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/wac173421.pdf and
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/wac173422/wac173422.pdf

I am so glad to be in Texas where they do not care what you modify so long as it is at least as clean as it was out of the factory in the year of manufacture.

[ February 20, 2004, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: TexasJ10 ]

[DieselSJ]

This is more of a rant than anything - I just need to vent about beaurocrats who have their heads stuffed sideways up their Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogleyes.

As my engineless Wagoneer sits in the driveway and my recently acquired 6.5 with freshly rebuilt 4911 and injectors sits on the stand in my garage, I have been researching Washington emission laws regarding engine swaps.

My first call was to the Department of Ecology - they oversee the emissions testing program. Their response: anything that changes the emissions output is illegal. But, as beaurocrats go, I could not get this guy to give me a definite answer on the diesel swap question. Well, maybe it is, but I don't think so. Blah, blah, blah.

So, I figure the guys who do the testing would know. The testing is contracted by a private company. According to the station manager, the only swaps that are legal are installing an engine that was a factory option for that year, and the engine must be of the same year as the chassis. So, no diesel in the Waggy.

Plan 2 - dump the Waggy and find an early 90's Suburban or crew cab high mileage gasser and swap in the diesel. Nope, that isn't legal either. Even though a diesel was a factory option, it is illegal to convert from gas to diesel (however, you can legally swap from diesel to gas). Yeah, stupid.

So, I asked what would happen if I showed up in a GM truck with a gas VIN and it had a diesel? They would fail the vehicle for having an illegal engine change, even though a diesel was a factory option.

Why would they rather have a gas engine on the road than a diesel?

Decision time. Sell the Waggy and find a diesel powered early 90's truck and dump in the new engine, or dump the diesel and put a EFI gasser into the Waggy?

Funny thing - it is also illegal to switch from carbureted to EFI. Why? Because you are tampering with the emissions equipment that was installed by the factory. But, since there is no visual inspection, that one would probably slip by.

For sale - 1997 6.5 (17K miles), rebuilt 4911, rebuilt injectors, Detroit Diesel single plane intake. I have a little over $4k into it as it sits.

-OR-

For Sale - 1987 Grand Waggy, includes trans, no engine, no xfer case. Includes extra set of door panels and sun visors. I have about $900 into it as it sits.

First reasonable offer takes either or both.

[woodybeone]

What year is the cut off for inspectionsin Wa.? Some states are pre 1975 vehicles exempt. Could get an early wag and do the swap.
What about getting the vehicle a reconstructed title? Some states will exempt a vehicle with a reconstructed title.

[woodstock]

What a headache!

How about moving to "beautiful" Indiana, where we have no such rules? hehehe

Honestly man, that really stinks. You'd think that if they wanted to control emissions they would just adopt some sort of acceptable baseline emissions level based on the year and type of the automobile. Oh wait, this is the government...that would make things way too easy!

[skid2964]

Yeah, that's my suggestion, move away from the people's republic of Washington! :D

Seriously, sorry to hear about your struggles against poeple that cannot understand the logic of an engine swap.

[FSJ Thing]

Stop, don't do it, when you wanna say screw it...

I have a similar problem here in Denver. No body will tell me what I need to legally convert a pre 81 gas engine to propane. NOBODY will tell me, not the clean air colorado tech line, nor any of the pre 81 emissions test sites. My solution, I will register this truck in Eagle county with my Uncles address in Eagle CO where there are no emissions testing. If you're in Seattle-ish, then ask a relative in another town if you can register your rig in there county! I know that there is no emissions testing in Kitsap county, and I imagine that if you go east they probably won't have testing out there either. There are always ways to beat the system! Don't give up!

[joe]

Originally posted by Wago Thing:
If you're in Seattle-ish, then ask a relative in another town if you can register your rig in there county! I know that there is no emissions testing in Kitsap county,Yup, that's best way. Only the WA counties that have major cities in them have smog tests. If you don't have anyone in another county who's address you can use rent a PO box, send a few letters to it, keep the canceled evelopes so you can show the registration people it's a valid/in use addy and register the thing. Of course your title and tab renewal forms will go there so you'll need to check the mail once in awhile. A hassel maybe but better than dumping a multi-thousand dollar project.

[J4GRAND]

How about moving to "beautiful" Indiana, where we have no such rules? hehehe Speak for yourself Woodstock. Here in Porter Co., we have emissions testing. Thankfully my 73 is exempt.

Mark in WA- Have you checked to see if there is any way to get a higher gross weight truck plate to exempt you from emissions. Here in the few counties that do emissions testing in IN, you can pay an extra $30 and get a 9000 or 11000 lb. truck plate which exempts you from testing.

[Bryan]

Western Washington has WAY to many tree hugging, whale saving, wealthy software liberals to have a loophole in the emmissions testing. I hate Seattle, you couldnt pay me enough money to move back there (I was born and raised there and lived there untill I was 26). You need to move over here to the OTHER Washington (Eastern WA), where common sense still prevails. Hell you can use my address to register it over here if you want.

[Elliott]

Originally posted by Bryan:
Western Washington has WAY to many tree hugging, whale saving, wealthy software liberals to have a loophole in the emmissions testing. I hate Seattle, you couldnt pay me enough money to move back there (I was born and raised there and lived there untill I was 26). You need to move over here to the OTHER Washington (Eastern WA), where common sense still prevails. Hell you can use my address to register it over here if you want.Ahhh, Haaaa, HAAAA!
Seattle sucks, best move I ever made. Just register it elsewhere, take Bryan up on his offer. If there was any where to work in Eastern WA I woulda likely planted in Okanogin.

[Panoscopic]

Originally posted by Mark in WA:

Why would they rather have a gas engine on the road than a diesel?Diesels are very bad with emissions, especially NoX and particulates.

[Mike D]

Get a 63-4 and just drop it in ....

[woodstock]

Originally posted by J4GRAND:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How about moving to "beautiful" Indiana, where we have no such rules? hehehe Speak for yourself Woodstock. Here in Porter Co., we have emissions testing. Thankfully my 73 is exempt.

Mark in WA- Have you checked to see if there is any way to get a higher gross weight truck plate to exempt you from emissions. Here in the few counties that do emissions testing in IN, you can pay an extra $30 and get a 9000 or 11000 lb. truck plate which exempts you from testing.</font>[/QUOTE]You're kidding me, I didn't think there was any testing in Indiana. Must be the Valpo authorities trying to keep the Gary smog out of Porter County!

[Brule_Cherokee]

Wouldn't it have been easier to check the rules before spending $5000? At the risk of sounding like an asshole, maybe it's not the bureaucrats who's heads are in the wrong places?

[J4GRAND]

Woodstock wrote:
You're kidding me, I didn't think there was any testing in Indiana. Must be the Valpo authorities trying to keep the Gary smog out of Porter County! I believe that Marion Co. (Indy) and Floyd Co. (Terre Haute) have smog testing also. It might help our smog up here if they had enough roads to handle all the traffic. Emissions go up when 1000s of cars and trucks are sitting in traffic jams idling. Doesn't help to have steel mills, oil refineries, and coal burning power plants belching out 24/7/365 either.

[gpd]

BC, no it is the bureaucrats with there heads up their a**. Many of the requirements they have make no sense at all. When he can't even swap in a newer fuel injected engine into the rig that would get better fuel economy, and run cleaner than the old 360, it tells me that the purpose is not to keep the environment clean but to control what people can and can't do.

When Mark is not allowed to put in a engine that would double his gas mileage and reduce the overall fuel used, that makes a whole lotta sense. Sorry for the rant.

[Bryan]

OK, just so we are all on the same page here... (western) Washinton has to be one of the most liberal places on the face of the earth, second maybe to only Kalifornia (sorry guys) we are the original tree hugging state, and there is WAAAAYYY too much money here to try and reason with stupid (unintitled)rich people. I swear to God the granola they eat and the subaru's (superpoo's) they drive must make them STUPID. Is it something in the water maybe????

Sorry for the rant. Maybe if you petition hard enough you can get bill (microsoft) to petition for some sanity here...................

Can you tell I hate Western Washington?

Oh yeah, just for the record, if the navy did kill the whales (if you dont know, dont ask) so what, I'd rather have our defense systems operational and accurate (Thanks Bangor Navy Guys)
than a couple of pods of whales who probably have more rights than the average Human.............

[ March 04, 2004, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Bryan ]

[The PIG Smith]

Originally posted by woodstock:
How about moving to "beautiful" Indiana, where we have no such rules? heheheAMEN!

[DieselSJ]

Thanks for all the support. Yes, in hindsight, I should have checked first (thanks, Brule, you were very helpful).

They were very thorough when they wrote the laws. Written into the emissions laws is a little clause that specifically states that if you live in an emissions check area it is illegal to register outside that area? How do they enforce that? Simple - if you get pulled over and your license and registration do not have matching addresses, you must then PROVE residency at the address on the registration. A PO Box does NOT prove residency. If you cannot prove residency, then you get a nice fine and your registration gets revoked until you got get an emissions check. I also have the DOL telling me that I cannot have a PO Box as an address on my license - I can have a PO Box as a mailing address for the license, but the license must have a physical address (I think that is wrong, but that is what 2 people from DOL have told me).

Special Construction and Reconstructed are a couple options to look into. Something else I thought of today is to register it out of the area then make up some business cards with the same address and if anyone questions the regstration then I tell them that is my business address and it is a company car.

Selling the diesel would be no big deal - I can easily get back what I have into it. Then swap in a TPI sbc. A sbc sure would be an easier swap (these friggin diesels are BIG!). But, I really wanted a diesel.

Oh, and the "official" word from DOE is that swapping a later EFI engine is also illegal. Yes, it is true. Why? Because it violates the section of the law where it says that I cannot change or modify any of the emissions related components originally installed on my vehicle. Though, without a visual inspection it would be very hard for them to spot that. Now THAT is having their heads up their Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogleyes.

At least we can still get CCW's.

[ March 04, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Mark in WA ]

[Elliott]

If you have one of them new UPS store mail boxes that will be a Physical Address, unlike the PO box.

[David Milne]

Diesels are very bad with emissions, especially NoX and particulatesThey are worse than petrol engines for Nox and particulates, but they are better for hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. Part of the problem is you guys get ****ty high sulphur diesel..

[millertime]

man im kinda getting tired of being what I can and cant do to my car. Ive pretty much decided to only buy pre 74 cars just so I can do whatever I want and not have the state of oregon looking over my shoulder. It makes no sence to prevent people from upgrading their vehicle. Even if they allowed people to swap from deisel to gas how many conversions would they get a year. 12-20 maybe a year if that. At least its not cali where I would have to pay a ton of money just to have a car on the road. At least I get skrewed cheaply.

[AMC258]

Maybe a vegetable oil or biodiesel conversion would make it legal, many states, including California, are more lienient with "alternative fuel" vehicles. Just another option to consider.

[DieselSJ]

WANTED - pre 1978 Wagoneer. All I care about is a straight rust free body - the interior can be gone because all my GW stuff is going to get swapped into it. Anything 25 years and older is exempt.

[Elliott]

1970 Parts Waggy in Seattle:
http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008683

[Marvin Gates]

Mark I live just north of Spokane and we dont even have smog checks here, as long as you are not in Spokane city limits you are not required to ever have a check. Thats the reason I left Kalifornia, that place really sucks with their smog laws.
Here you can put anything in anything and no one cares. :D :D :D smile.gif
What year is the 6.5?

[ March 05, 2004, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Marvin Gates ]

[DieselSJ]

Elliot - thanks, I e-mailed the guy.

Marvin - it is a 1997.

I may have found a 1979 Waggy. If so, I'm gonna have a 1987 Grand for sale CHEAP very soon.

[Elliott]

Great, hope it works out for you.

[jlchilcot]

Same thing here in pa. I have a 86 toyota 4X4 with a 350 conversion and Im going through the same thing. From my research a reconstructed title would fix everything.

[DieselSJ]

In my dealings with the Washington State Department of Ecology and my little engine swap project, I have received lots of conflicting information about what is legal and what is not. Well, I finally go in touch with their "diesel expert". I had been trying to contact this guy for the past month and he finally called me on Monday.

He confirmed that a diesel swap is legal only if a diesel was an option in that vehicle. OK, fine. There is a gasser Burb that I have my eye on. So I ask him about emissions testing, since the test station told me that if I showed up in diesel powered vehicle and their system listed it as gas, they would fail me. I asked if I needed some type of paperwork from DOE stating that this was a legal swap.

"No. You just need to go to your local licensing agent and reclassify the vehicle as a diesel."

OK, do I need anything from DOE when I do that?

"No, you just go down there and pay the fee."

So, what you are telling me is that I can reclassify a vehicle, any vehicle, as a diesel, and that when I show up at the emissions test station they will test the vehicle as a diesel? And I can do this no matter if the vehicle had a diesel offered as an option?

After about a 15 second delay - "Yes."

Next call was to Dept of Licensing. I asked about reclassifying a vehicle from gas to diesel.

"Just go to your local agent. It is a $6 fee."

Do I need any paperwork from DOE regarding the engine change, or and documentation showing that a diesel was an option in that vehicle?

"Nope."

Final call was to the contractor that runs the emission test stations. If I show up in a vehicle that has a diesel, and the registration shows that it is a diesel, do you do any check to see if a diesel was really available in that vehicle?

"Why would we? If the registration says diesel, and the engine is a diesel, we test it as a diesel. If it was not available with a diesel, you wouldn't be able to register it as a diesel."

Amazing. Tomorrow I take the first step - I'll be visiting my local license agent to reclassify.

Gotta love State agencies that don't communicate.

[mountainlander]

VERY cool! Can't wait to see this project get underway! Take LOTS of pics, and keep us updated!

[ironroad29]

**** ,and i thought the navy was bad ..lol

[FSJeeper]

Glad to hear your project is back on track. You'll love the 6.5 and especailly the 20+ MPG you are going to get.

In Texas, if it has a diesel in it, there is no emmisions testing. Period. Doesn't matter if it was an option or not.

[FSJ Thing]

Rock and roll!

[skid2964]

LOL! .... thats amazing, they are so strict with thier rules that lay neatly between such large loop holes!

[ March 17, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: skid2964 ]

[JeepsAndGuns]

they are so smart they are stupid.

[sloop]

Yep, I called the DMV office to ask about emmissions on my 1976 CJ-7. The officer told me that if I added a catalytic converter so the CJ-7, it would be illegal since the vehicle didnt originally come with one and I would be tampering with emmissions equipment. A lot of this stuff is not thought out and doesn't make sense.

[woodstock]

hahaha...that's classic!
There's always a loophole somewhere!

[Al Johnson]

Catch 22

No feedback

No catch at all.

:D
Al

[J4GRAND]

Sounds like here in Northwest IN. I live in one of the 2 counties that require testing in our part of the state. Although my 73 is exempt, if I had to test it, all I would have to do is pay an extra $10 fee and get a 9K lb. truck plate instead of the normal 7K. Most of the guys I know that mod their vehicles do this.

[DieselSJ]

Well, I just got back from my local licensing agent and now officially have a title for a diesel powered Jeep Grand Wagoneer. Probably the only "documented" one in existence. Had a bit of a scare though - it is not currently regsitered, and the lady told me that she could not change the designation to diesel unless the registration was current. I can't register it until I pass emissions, and I can't pass emissions until it gets reclassed. I explained that to her and she thought about it for a minute and ran it through for me.

Now I just need to get some time to actually get the engine IN.

[Wagoneerlover]

Hey mark dont feel bad its the same way out here in Mryland. When I started asking info about swaps and other such things no one knew anything and it took me months to track down all the information. I was sent all over the whole univers from the police department to the environmental protection agency to the leuitenant at the MVA and back again and finally I compiled all the information I needed after finding a custom shop and getting in contact with some key MVA officials. Man if anyone out there in Maryland wants to do a swap and was not as patient as me they probably would just give up.