The Jeep dealership fixed it!!!

[Manhattan]

I take back everything bad (okay most) I ever said about dealership service departments! I just spoke with the technician who worked on Bushwood.

--- Reminder: New motor, terrible pinging after 30 minutes of highway driving, cuts-off routinely (ignition control module replaced twice), 5 mechanics have played with it (pinging) - no luck.

After being unable to duplicate the pinging and stalling, the tech' told one of the oldmen that deliver and pickup new cars, to get in the Jeep, head west on the highway and don't stop until it breaks down. The oldman went 30 miles, turned around (doesn't listen well) and Bushwood cut-off 2 miles from the dealership (good thing the oldman doesn't listen well).

So now the tech' could pinpoint the stalling:
Old, corroded connector in the wiring harness that connects the distributor - FIXED.

He then drove the Jeep himself (now that it was really warm). Duplicated the pinging.

This is where it gets good...

He checked all the book stuff: vaccum advance, EGR, timing, etc. Then went into the carburetor. Now, some of you guys said to look at the carb' and I said "But it was just totally rebuilt". However... The rebuilding of the motor took 6 months. The newly rebuild carburetor sat.. and sat... and sat... and rusted! Yep, the linkage for the butterfly valve (?) was only opening 25% of the way. So around town and at low loads, it was fine. Over 60 mph, up steep hills, or towing it was starving for air!

He took care of the linkage, drove it and phoned me. He said it Hauls Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley (remember, this is a new 360, mild cam, K&N, new exhaust, Dynomax muffler, etc.). He said he doesn't ever recall driving a Grand Wagoneer that ran this well. At 75 mph, he said, he floored it - it downshifted to 2nd gear and "took off"!!! It start immediately, hold idle at 3,000 til warm, drops to 800 and purrs!!!

I haven't driven Bushwood myself yet. I'll do that Thursday (leaving NYC for good!), so I can only go on his account. I am stoked, thrilled, excited, relieved, happy...

I'll post an update after driving it for myself.

THANKS FOR THE SUGGESTIONS AND HELP WITH THIS!!! This may end 3 years of poor performance for Bushwood!

[tuckers89GW]

having your jeep running great is "a good thing"
glad you got everything fixed.

[irbob]

It's just like X-Mas all over again isn't it. Glad for yea.

[Blackjack]

Sounds great ;) , you're pumped!
Where are you moving to?
GFD

[RdHawg]

I know the elation you feel my friend - I too have finally 'got mine fixed long enough to go somewhere.'

[Rich 89 Gr. Wag]

How much did the dealer charge for all that?

I remember the last time I took my Jeep to the dealer, he said he rebuilt the carb ($300). It ran much worse after the rebuild. He screwed around with it a couple times, but never got it right

[andy d]

woohoo. who'da thought it was the carbatater! im happy for you.

[Tad]

Another happy story, I love it when that happens.

[Manhattan]

I haven't gotten the final bill... Think it'll be over $100? ;)

Let's see, several hours of diagnosing, several hours of repairing, AC recharge, oil change, general dislike for old non-computer cars... Can't wait to see the bill.

If Bushwood is running as good as the technician and the "quality control" guys (two of them drove it today) say it's running, then the trip to Ouray may be back on!!! --- We had decided to borrow a friend's F-250 and tow the CJ to Moab and skip Ouray. Our fear was that Bushwood wasn't up to the task. 5,000 miles with a 5,000 lb. trailer is a heck of a task for any GW, let alone a GW running like $@*t.

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Manhattan ]</p>

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

FIRST...WHAT'S UP WITH THE OLD MAN STUFF...AND SECOND YOU LEFT OFF A 0 ON YOUR TOTAL!!! :D :D

[coolram]

That's great to hear they got "Bushwood" running good.But butterfly valve not opening all the way sounds an awful lot like choke airhorn.

[hkjensli]

Well that i somewhat diffrent then here, a friend of mine pulled his GW in to the local Jeep dealership and the mechanics just looked at each other and asked what kinda car it was........

[Jeepzilla]

Glad to hear that it is fixed! Don't misunderstand, I am not disputing anything you said or he said, I just want to learn. I can't figure out, though, how partially open butterflies make the engine ping. Seems like that would make for very rich mixture therefore flat performance, fouled plugs, black smoke. Ping (detonation, preignition, spark knock) is a timing problem, lean mixture problem, or carbon loading problem. Can someone please educate me on this?

[Darin]

Hey Jeepzilla, I was going to chime in yesterday on this but thought otherwise. I am interested to hear a reply on your question as well. I battle the exact same thing as Manhattan, and have followed all his woes hoping I would get a solution as well. I have been trying to get past a 92 octane requirement and light mid throttle pinging only on the hiway.

[Manhattan]

Jeepzilla - you make a good point. At the risk of a few thinking "oh, sure", I'll mention that what you're getting at dawned on me last night. If the motor is starved for air, it will blow black smoke, have little power, etc. - a "rich" condition.

If the motor is starved of fuel but has plenty of air it will run lean... but will it ping?

They guys said that they drove the hell out of it (one technician and two quality control guys) and it ran extremely well. They were well aware of the problems and when they occured - higher rpm, under load and after 30 minutes or so at highway speeds.

Is it possible that the carburetor was contributing to a more typical timing issue and fixing both solved?

[Jeepzilla]

The mysteries of the electronic spark advancing aside, the only thing I can think of is that normally in high RPM operations, the vacuum advance to the distributor is nearly zero, but the centrifugal advance is nearly maximum. If the engine is starving for air, does that raise the vacuum (sucking harder) and therefore "overadvance" the distributor, thus it pings??

[desert_freak]

Boy Jeepguzzi, your really working overtime on trying to figure that out :D Must have smoke coming out of the ears :D Sounds like you may be on the right track though. Did Manhatten ever get the total bill :eek:

P.J.

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

I SAY TRY TO ADJUST THE CARB WITH SOME 91 OCTANE....MY DAILY ROACH,PING,PING,PING...91 OCTANE NO PING,PING,PING,....1.50 A GAL :eek: :eek: :D

[Jeepzilla]

Mr Desert Freak, that is JeepZILLA if you please. :D :D tongue.gif Yeah, I like this kind of problem solving...there IS an explanation. Just in case it happens to me!

[desert_freak]

OOPS, I stand corrected, sorry for the misprint :D Must be to much solvent use :D

P.J.

[Rande]

A parially closed choke makes for increased vacuum. Therefore, wouldn't the vacuum advance go too far too soon? Advanced timing=pinging, right? A fully warmed up engine would makes the situation worse, creating the pinging problem only after reaching full operating temp.
Also, the power valve increases the fuel to air ratio as the engine speed increases, the more you put your foot into it, the lower the vacuum goes. So, with lower vacuum, wouldn't the power valve increase the gas flow? Then, with increased vacuum, wouldn't it decrease gas flow? A partially closed choke creating increased vacuum not only advances the timing too soon, it would also lean out the air-fuel mixture via the power valve.
Anyone stay at a Holiday Inn recently that can opine on this?

[Jeepzilla]

Very good, except that the choke and butterfly valves (or throttle plates) are different. The butterflies are below the venturis, while the choke is above. I guess that the effect would be the same, though. I accept your discussion of power valves because I'm not a Holley man. Manhattan, how does the tech explain this??

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Jeepzilla ]</p>

[Rande]

Well, yes the butterfly valve is usually thought of as the throttle valve but here it was written in a way that made me think he wasn't quite sure what the butterfly valve was. I was thinking he was mis-identifing the choke valve because the throttle valve is mechanically connected to the accelerator pedal and if that were only opening 25%, that would be noticed right away. The choke valve, on the other hand, is not directly connected to the acceleratoe pedal and if it weren't opening all the way, then that may not be noticed.
So, my thinking here was: the butterfly valve he was referring to was actually the choke valve, no the throttle valve.
Though, I could've been wrong...doesn't seem likely though :rolleyes: ;)

[Jeepzilla]

I getcha! Prolly right on!