229 works how?

[Snakeyes_Tx]

I know how a 228 works, and how the vacuum switch is on the t-case.

My 83 Wagoneer has a 229 and the vacuum disconnect axle. I'm assuming the switch goes to the axle on these rather than the T-case.

229 is full time 4-wheel drive.

Okay.. so help me out here.

You have the front axle disconnected via the vacuum.. which means its not driving the axle. But this is a FULL time case right? Would this FRY the viscuous coupler? Or does a 229 have a 2-hi shift on the t-case too? Like my 208 has?

I don't know the how it works!? http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Someone explain please!

------------------
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Land of the Dinosaurs (http://www.geocities.com/Snakeyes_Tx/rusty.htm)
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86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
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[ironroad29]

same as the 208 you just get the bonus of being able to run 4hi on the pavment yes there is a 2 hi just flip the vacaum switch on the dash as for the front diff well it is like you dicribed the axle is disconnected and both wheels are free to spin and there lesure and 4 lo well locked and loaded!!

------------------
"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going" visit the C.O.R.E. homepage

[This message has been edited by ironroad29 (edited June 23, 2001).]

[Snakeyes_Tx]

But... whoa.. hang on.

The Selectrac works like this.. the 228 and 229.

You're driving.. front end traction is lost. Let's say that my front right tire is on ICE and the left is on cement. Back two are on cement too. With the 228 with the open center differential, all the power would go to the wheel that has the least traction. Which means my tire on the ice would slip like crazy and I'd go nowhere.

On the 229, there is a Viscuous Coupler. From what I understand, it is a Cone style Limited Slip differential in the center. That's the difference between it and the 228. So Same scenario. All the power would go to the wheel on the ice again, BUT some of the power due to the limited slip, would give me power to at LEAST one of the rear wheels pushing me along.

NOW.

If I have the vaccum disconnect on the axle done. That means the front hubs or shafts aren't engaged to the differential. The 229 is Full time. So...

I'm driving... no front end connected. Doesn't that basically tell the transfer-case that the front axle has no traction? Wouldn't that make the Viscuous coupler direct the power to a front end that isn't engaged? Thus FRYING the coupler?

See what I'm asking? How does it work?

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83 Wagoneer Limited "Yet to be named"
360/727/229/44/44
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[ironroad29]

look it's just like a conventional case in two wheel drive your not turning the front drive just the rear drive shaft is being driven your not putting power to the chain and it locks up the coupler somehow ...not real sure on that . don't thank me yet ...

------------------
"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going" visit the C.O.R.E. homepage

[This message has been edited by ironroad29 (edited June 23, 2001).]

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Ooh ooh! Wait.. lemme get this right..

When I had a 228 in the dinosaur.. and the original axle.. the front shaft ALWAYS spun.. engaged or not.. because my vacuum went to the case..

On your 229 equipped rigs... does your front driveshaft stay still in 2wd??
That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


------------------
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86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
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83 Wagoneer Limited "Yet to be named"
360/727/229/44/44
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[ironroad29]

yea but the fron't axle will always spin a little with the disco front axle because of the resistance of the gear lube but it's not like you having to push the front axle ....you you get what i'm saying or am i babbling ?


------------------
"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going" visit the C.O.R.E. homepage

[irbob]

Here is some information I dug up that may be of some help.

When 4WD mode is selected the axle is shifted first. After it is engaged the vacuum port is opened to the transfer case to engage 4WD. When shifting to 2WD the transfer shifts first. One side of the switch is always vented to the atmosphere, which causes the hissing sound heard when moving the lever.

Only in 4WD mode does the 229 operate the same as the standard full-time system used in previous Jeeps like the QT219. The NP229 is a 3 position, dual range, full-time/part-time unit where as the 219 is a 4 position, dual range, full time unit.

In the neutral position on a 229 equipped rig the axles are disengaged from the power train, which allows it to be towed without removing the shafts.

You should never operate the vac switch when the rig is moving. The range shift lever is moved to the desired range while moving 2-3mph. It will go into 4 low only if the vac switch is in the 4WD position.

Ok, now for the viscous Coupling (VC) operation. It only works in 4WD High and only under certain condition does it do anything at all. The VC functions as a torque biasing slip-limiting unit. In normal operation, the VC is not active. However, when extreme speed variations between axles occur, such as when one wheel or set of wheels spin on an ice covered surface, the coupling acts to transfer torque to the axle/wheels having greater traction. The VC does not lock the axles together, it merely limits the amount of slippage while delivering maximum torque to the axle having the greater traction.

I hope this helps you out. One way to know if the VC is bad is when the parts guy says that will be $350.00 please. http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/eek.gif

------------------
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[ironroad29]

what a min here you can switch to 4 hi with the vac switch at (any legal speed) and thats what i was saying the 4 hi isn't locked just 4 lo

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"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going" visit the C.O.R.E. homepage

[JEEPRZ]

You can switch the vac switch from 2wd to 4wd at speeds if you have a front axle without the disco. The VC is clutch operated

------------------
Dave
83 GW
360/727/229
No longer a tow rig...now its buildup time,axle swap and possible coil conversion??
3"lift, 31s, 3.31s, edlebrock intake, cam, TBI, custom DIY exh, rebuilt trans, shift kit and factory aux cooler,modified 229 (no viscous coupling, *improved* vacuum system), lotsa squeaks, leaks, and rattles

[irbob]

Yup, I know you said that in your own words but I guess I just like to type. <joke> I had to put some redundant info in there to meld my story together. Not trying to steal your thunder. http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

ironroad29.....Do you have a NP229 Select-Trac in your 89? It just may be that you can switch the vac at any legal speed but my 83 TSM says to never do it unless troubleshooting it's operation. Says the rig must be stopped. If you hear a ratcheting sound when switching it at HW speeds, that's pieces of metal being chipped away. I think I will stick to my TSM instructions. After spending 700 bucks http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/eek.gif to build my 229 I want to baby it as much as possible.

------------------
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[irbob]

Friendly FSJeeper comments ahead! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ...setting the mood.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JEEPRZ:
if you have a front axle without the disco.

Please help me a little, showing my ignorant side. Sorry but what is a "disco" and what application would have it. A Select-trac wouldn't have a disconnect anyway if that's what your talking about. And knowing that, my TSM still says not to do it. Is my TSM a error laden fire starter.

The VC is clutch operated


The VC in-and-of-itself is a clutch. It controls it's own operation automatically. Depending on wheel spin. I don't see what you mean by "clutch operated".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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[Snakeyes_Tx]

Actually.. you're right.. after 86, most Dana44 fronts were not vacuum disco... they were the "constant lock" like the 228 86's had. Those were "shift on the fly" for the switch.

The Vacuum disco front axles, you would have to stop. It just makes sense, because the front axle needs time to engage.

Thank you all for the info!

Irbob.. does your front driveshaft spin with the front axle disconnected?


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83 Wagoneer Limited "Yet to be named"
360/727/229/44/44
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[ironroad29]

swap axles the front disco is holding back your progress into the world of sotf http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif didn't mean to steal your tunder irbob ....thanks for clearing that up i don't have a disco so it makes sense to stop sorry snake ..

------------------
"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going" visit the C.O.R.E. homepage

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Whoa! But check this out.. Scotty was talking about this...

Imagine if you will, swap in a 208...

If you can vacuum disconnect the front axle, then you could...

Weld it, Spool it, lock it...

And when you'd have to turn, you can turn it off! Poor Man's ARB! AND! You still never have to get dirty to just lock in your 4-wheel drive! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/tongue.gif


------------------
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Wag without a name (http://www.geocities.com/Snakeyes_Tx/83Wag.htm)
83 Wagoneer Limited "Yet to be named"
360/727/229/44/44
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[ironroad29]

true


------------------
"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going" visit the C.O.R.E. homepage

[JEEPRZ]

By stating 'clutch operated', i was referring to the type. One of the posts above mentions a cone style LSD device.

One bad thig about using the disco diff welded, on turns, the pass side axle and tire would still 'fight' the rear end a bit. Not as bad as a spool on a normal axle, but still a bit of bind would occur.

Im not so sure of the strength of the disco axle anyway.

------------------
Dave
83 GW
360/727/229
No longer a tow rig...now its buildup time,axle swap and possible coil conversion??
3"lift, 31s, 3.31s, edlebrock intake, cam, TBI, custom DIY exh, rebuilt trans, shift kit and factory aux cooler,modified 229 (no viscous coupling, *improved* vacuum system), lotsa squeaks, leaks, and rattles

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Well, what I meant was if you turn with a welded axle.. you can shut the vacuum off and let it act as an open again... in theory.

------------------
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83 Wagoneer Limited "Yet to be named"
360/727/229/44/44
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[ClarkGriswald]

Dont the earlier setups with the 229 and the disco axle have a latch mechanism to the 2-4 wheel switch?? you have to pull down on a pin to switch it???? forcing you to use both hands (and therefore be stopped) in theory?

And the VC is a liquid silicone filled deal I think.. and Yes.. in the 350 dollar range I belive.

Snake.. put a 208 in there and some warn hubs on the front.. the 208 is a direct bolt in .. you just need a driveshaft from a waggy that had a 208. like 5.5 inches longer

See how we have come full circle.. (Snake once told me to put in a 208 hahhahah.)..
------------------
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[This message has been edited by ClarkGriswald (edited June 24, 2001).]

[irbob]

Snakeyes_Tx...if you weld the diff the tires will still want to rotate together even if there is no power to it. Buy the way I don't think it will work anyway. I'm not much on gears and lockers but it seems that exploding VC's was mentioned here before. I need help on this one guys.

When in two wheel drive the front shaft on my rig is not driven by the transfer or the diff. It free spools.

ClarkGriswald...mine has the pin but I have learned to work it with one hand. Just pull the pin down with the thumb and index finger, pull the pin toward you to bind it and flip the lever over with your thumb.
I still stop before doing this though.


------------------
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[BobBarry]

Snakeyes: Only the BW QT used the cone-clutces; the NP219/229 used a viscous coupler, which had a series of tightly-packed plates in a silicone-based fluid. This fluid normally is not very "sticky", for lack of a better word. When the plates start to spin past each other with any degree of speed (i.e. one axle spinning significantly faster than another), the fluid becomes "grabby", causing some of the power to be transferred through the fluid and the plates to the other driveshaft.

Of course, the VC in one of these units is rather tiny, and the plates are not all that sturdy. Past a certain point, I would imagine that either the plates would bend, or the fluid would overheat and break down, or the housing would crack, or some other "really bad thing" would happen.

It appears that only the '83 and '84 Selectrac systems used the front-axle vacuum disconnect. Like all vacuum disconnects, it only unhooks one side of the front axle, so the other axle-shaft turns one of the differential gears, and since the other stub of an axle-shaft is free to spin, the carrier in the pumpkin remains stationary while the little gear in there spins merrily away.

I think a big problem with Scotty's plan for welding up the axle is that if you weld up those gears, the one half of the axle will now want to turn the carrier, which in turn will rotate the driveshaft, the TC front output shaft, and the drive-chain.

So, you WOULD have a locker, and be able to drive it on the street, but the front shaft would still spin. I think locking hubs would be a better option, if saving gas, and not just driveability, was a concern.

The reason the '83-'84 units had to be stopped to be engaged was that the two halfs of the disconnected half of the axle would be turning in different directions when the front was disconnected, making it difficult for the dogs to engage cleanly!

The '85 and up Selectrac (228 and 229) used the constant-drive front hubs and axle, so the front drivetrain is always spinning in synch with the rear. That is why the later ones are shift-on-the-fly. Of course, this also means that the 2wd mode has no real purpose, as the whole drivetrain is always being driven, either directly through the drivetrain or indirectly through the front wheels turning the parts. I've just taken to always keeping our GW in 4wd.

------------------
Bob Barry<UL TYPE=SQUARE>* '78 Cherokee 4-door
* '88 Grand Wagoneer[/list]http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/

[MonsterMash]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClarkGriswald:
Snake.. put a 208 in there and some warn hubs on the front.. the 208 is a direct bolt in .. you just need a driveshaft from a waggy that had a 208. like 5.5 inches longer

See how we have come full circle.. (Snake once told me to put in a 208 hahhahah.).. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too Clark! And it works great. And I kinda' like the disco front axle since I can now shift into 2h, 2l, 4h-lock, & 4l-lock all from the comfort of my front seat. I'm debating putting locking hubs and replacing the disco axle shaft with a one piece unit but then I'd have to get out of my seat to engage the front axle. http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/frown.gif



------------------
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30x9.5x15 Coursers, TFI upgrade, NP-208("Vacuum, we don't need no stinkin' vacuum")
Most everything works some of the time!
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[ironroad29]

at least you would know it's engaged ...i personally don't mind locking hubs i prolly will put some on my 89 just have to remember to lock before i shift or i'll be doing a 208 swap ...lol


------------------
"If a jeep can't take you there, maybe you should think twice about going" visit the C.O.R.E. homepage

[scotty]

it is correct,mr. barry,that the locked,welded,or whatever diff would spin the carrier and driveshaft in 2wd.this,however,is not a prollem. in the 85 and up non disco axles this very same thing is happening-both wheels are still connected,the driveshaft is spinning,and the chain that is just sort of "free wheeling" inside the case.

if this is a prollem,for whatever reason,a person could simply add lockouts. unlock both hubs,now it doesnt matter if the axles are connected or not.

this is,however,not a modification for inclimate weather,street driven rig where 4wd is needed to get to work and back.alot of whacky steering characteristics pop up with the addition of a locker,lsd,or spool,and in the front you have now doubled your turning radius and made it very difficult to steer. you would need to drive with the disco disconnected so that one wheel would not recieve power and help keep you on track. this would be more of a hardcore trail mod.

jeeprz,a welded diff is a spool.neither allow any differentiation whatsoever,so binding and difficult steering will be the result of having either in the front end while using 4wd.while in 2wd no binding will occur,as the chain is not really connected,just spinning.

a normal axle cannot have a spool unless lockouts are installed.even in 2wd,both wheels will be locked together,and steering not possible unless lockouts are present and in the "free" position.

as for the strength,its prolly every bit as strong as the non disco axle.ive seen the xj and yj guys break driveshafts,u joints and outer stubshafts without damaging the inner or outer axles in the disconnect side.i have talked to very few people who have broken either the short or long part of the disco.granted this is apples and oranges since the xj/yj use a d30,but the disco d30 doenst seeem to be any weaker, than a noraml d30,so i dont think a disco 44 should be any weaker than a nondisco 44.

if i can find a dodge 44 with a passenger side diff disco,im gonna jump on it.

allright,snakeyes. the 228 and 229 are the same,cept the 229 uses the v/c instead of the open center diff.dont let the presence of the disco axle confuse you,it really doesnt have anything to do with the xfer. that said,youve allready been there and done that,dot make same mistakes again.be on the lookout for a 208 to swap when your 229 breaks,which it will if youre gonaa beat on it like you did the dinosour.

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/t18/spicer 18 with pto/widetrac offset d44s/rear discs
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

vw turing brake,BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install very soon
4.0 aquired-4.5L stroker someday...

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[MonsterMash]

BTW THANKS Scotty, Snakeyes_TX, and you other guys who convinced me to do the 208 swap. 2low works great on the boat ramps. Best upgrade so far!!! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
'84GW360--"Spinner"
30x9.5x15 Coursers, TFI upgrade, NP-208("Vacuum, we don't need no stinkin' vacuum")
Most everything works some of the time!
1st Annual Jefferson FSJ Mud Run:

http://home.earthlink.net/~worthservices/index.html