14 Bolt

[1977Waggy]

Is this 14 Bolt set up for a dually?

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/1981cj7/14BoltDrum.jpg

It sure dwarfs the D44 rear doesn't it

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/1981cj7/D44v14Bolt.jpg

Charles

[Slick Willie]

Yep

[1977Waggy]

What will I have to do to run it with a single wheel?

Charles

[Slick Willie]

You'll have to find some SRW hubs and swap them out. Depending on the brakes you plan on using, you may need drums too, but not if you're going to disc it.

Check it out:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/14b_bible/index.html

[Brad W.]

definetly swap to disks, you'll lose a crap ton of weight that way, and get better braking. but yes, you'll need to find some SRW hubs and swap 'em out before you do the disks

[KaiserMan]

Couldn't he just replace the 5/8" wheel studs with 9/16" studs to fit standard wheels and run it as a SRW axle? It would give him a wide wms, but that would be a good thing if he wanted to run hummer rims.

[Gambler68]

thats an awesome page on Pirate. Reading it makes me want to take a closer look at the 83 14b I have sitting under a van at my MIL's place :D

Do they generally have gear ratio tags, or stamped on the case? I don't recall seeing a tag last time I looked.

[1977Waggy]

I like the idea on running the SW hub so I could get the WMS to WMS a bit narrower. I have a friend here who may be able to help me out with finding the parts I will need.

SW hub
New SW drum - I don't think the budget will allow for disks just yet

Anything else?

Charles

[Brad W.]

by the time you buy new drums, you may be money ahead to buy disks. you can have the braket kit with hardware for under $100 on ebay or from any number of fab companies, then use 3/4 ton GM front axle rotors (cheap at checkers, vatozone, etc.) and use regular chevy 1/2 ton or wagoneer FRONT calipers (no e-brake) or cadillac el dorado REAR calipers (with e-bake cables). chevy brake parts years: 73-87

I put together a complete set on a D60 rear using this stuff, it cost me about $150, maybe a little less since i used wag calipers I already had from a parts jeep.

for reference:

Reman calipers loaded with new pads (have a warranty too):
left = 164208 right = 164209
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=A1C&mfrpartnumber=164208&parttype=5003&ptset=A
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=A1C&mfrpartnumber=164209&parttype=5003&ptset=A
these are non e-brake, I use a line lock instead of cable e-brakes.


cheap rotors:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=RAY&mfrpartnumber=5014RGS&parttype=221&ptset=A

nice rotors:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=RAY&mfrpartnumber=5014&parttype=221&ptset=A
personally, I'd get the PG's (nice ones), I use those on my own trucks, they are good quality and wear very well.

brackets: ebay items
260078879652 - great lakes offroad, and he's had alot of satisfied buyers, i've heard lots about him, and his stuff.
160076456311- some other guy
190074388227 - same deal

the rotors, calipers, SRW hubs, and the e-bay bracket kit are all you really need, short of a couple of fittings and some 6"-8" rubber brake hoses to tie the calipers to the hard line. the bracket kit might tell you more about those.

[BRUTUS]

I like the idea on running the SW hub so I could get the WMS to WMS a bit narrower. I have a friend here who may be able to help me out with finding the parts I will need.

SW hub
New SW drum - I don't think the budget will allow for disks just yet

Anything else?

Charles

I will tell you when I priced the new 14bolt drums... $89 each at carquest. Add new pads, springs and wheel cylinders... not much more budget to get disks. Food for thought. I didn't even think twice because of the VAST improvement in braking.

Brad... you forgot to mention the wheel studs. They will most likely need to be replaced if/when you switch to disks. IIRC $6 each for 16... not cheap!

[1977Waggy]

Brad, again, I must complement you. I knew nothing about these axles except for the fact that they are strong as he!!. I have some calipers from the '77 Waggy I am stealing parts from so I guess discs won't be as expensive as I would have imagined. I put $200 into brake parts for a 9" I have and will just take the parts back and get my money back and put it towards this project.

Thanks again for your knowledge.

Charles

[Brad W.]

there you go, problem solved! Glad I could help, discs are the only way to go if you want performance. Yeah, i did forget the studs. The SRW hubs use the 9/16" studs, which are by far the best option for standard wheel use. I'm seeing about $3 each on the studs, not sure what you bought. Check the part numbers provided with the disc bracket kit and see which ones to use, maybe i'm wrong. It's still worth the expense.

[BRUTUS]

Now that I look at it you might not need new hubs... Stay with me here,

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/1981cj7/14BoltDrum.jpg

If you cut the wheel studs BEHIND the whitish plate in this picture... the hub actually looks the same as mine did. (Keep in mind I haven't ever seen a DRW 14 bolt) I am thinking that this is PART if not all of the reason that the WMS is wider than a SRW.

Here is mine for reference... SRW

http://www.jasonhabrock.com/jeep/lift/images/14bolthubpaint1.jpg

It just looks to me like the flange thickness from the wheel mounting surface to the reliefs is the same. So if you cut the studs BEHIND the whitish plate (you would need to replace them anyways) the whitish plate would come off the hub and it would look really close to mine.

Or is there something else that I am missing here?

Does anyone else have any 14bolt pictures with orange straps in them they want to share?

[KaiserMan]

That white plate isn't a part of the hub. It goes on the outside of the outer wheel. The lug holes in dually rims aren't dished to fit the lug nut taper, so they have to run those plates. Someone just placed the plate over the studs after they took the wheels off.

[1977Waggy]

That is right about the white plate, it is just floating there.

Charles

[BRUTUS]

That is right about the white plate, it is just floating there.

Charles

I wondered about that.

I get it now... this is the difference:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/14b_bible/brawler_hub3.jpg

SRW on the left and DRW on the right... Personally, i think yours looks like a SRW based on your pictures... have you measured the WMS-WMS? Or is it just an optical illusion because the studs are SO long on yours?

[malodin]

i put my vote for disk braking it in. im in the process of rounding up the parts, got the caliper brackets made(have access to a plasma cutter) here at work(free) just a matter of getting the rotor and new pads as i have fsj calipers already. so far into it 120(for 4 30" stainless lines and a ton of fitting stuff)(taken from billavistas sight) but ive got the 14b swapped in didnt cost me anything and almost hooked up to stock stuff, if your not running a lift or a body lift you might get away with the stock rubber line coming from the body to the pumpkin, other than that you can get the 30" stainless lines from afco for 13 each(way cheap for what your getting)

[J10Mike]

Yep...Go disk. I put disks on my rear D60 and I love it.

[Slick Willie]

Get the WMS to WMS measurement on this mystery axle. The smallness of the drums and need for dually rims makes it look like a DRW axle. But it may be a small diameter drum SRW. WMS should tell the story.

[1977Waggy]

I will get the WMS to WMS at lunchtime today.

Charles

[1977Waggy]

This 14 bolt is approx. 67" from WMS to WMS.

The HD D44 that came with it is approx. 70" from WMS to WMS and there are pics of it in the thread "1 ton GM axles"

And it doesn't appear to be a dually front from what people have suggested there.

So what's the verdict?

Charles

[BRUTUS]

This 14 bolt is approx. 67" from WMS to WMS

SRW... Just as I thought.... :dancingbanana: :alc: :D

[Brad W.]

it's a SRW if it's that width. which means just order the disc crap and be on the road again. Really, it even looks like brutus' hubs with a the small brakes of the 1970's. throw that drum away, put new bearings in the hubs, and disc it. bingo, you're done. the 4.10 is even a good ratio to run with, no need to change it.

[1977Waggy]

I really appreciate everyone's input on this thread. You all have helped me identify what I have and how I can/should set it up, at least the brake issue. Now, to get that thing over to my house and start the brake conversion.

Charles

[1977Waggy]

I got my 14 bolt disk brake brackets in. They look nice.


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/1981cj7/14BoltHD44/DSC00017a.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/1981cj7/14BoltHD44/DSC00016a.jpg

I should be getting the 360 back from the machine shop within the next couple weeks.

Charles

[Brad W.]

whats with the little brackets? nut retainers?

[BRUTUS]

whats with the little brackets? nut retainers?

Those are the spacers. The axle flange has threaded holes. I guess they will work but I wouldn't run them.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Guess that would work for spacers, the ones I have been using have DOM spacers and they work fine. No problems stopping 39" tires dead

[1977Waggy]

I purchased them from Great Lakes Offroad. I am pretty sure someone here recommended them. I will have to look back at the previous posts to makes sure I read it correctly.

I hope they work.

Charles

[BRUTUS]

I purchased them from Great Lakes Offroad. I am pretty sure someone here recommended them. I will have to look back at the previous posts to makes sure I read it correctly.

I hope they work.

Charles

I am sure they will work. I would check to make sure that you have a flat mounting surface where those formed angles are. The metal will typically bulge at the bend. Just make sure they are all flat before installing.

[scotty]

i think id go so far as to put another piece of angle on the other side of each one of those little spacer thingys. or cut them off and use 4 pieces of solid tubing the same length...

other than the spacer they look nice :)

[1977Waggy]

I have a couple weeks to figure out what I am going to do with those pieces. I can see what you all don't like about them and I am going to go back and check out the description of the product. I thought they were supposed to come with spacers.

Charles

[1977Waggy]

Well, I went back and looked at the picture of what I saw on ebay and sure enough, spacers were supposed to be what I was getting. I sent the company an email to find out what is going on. I feel a little misled. I asked them to explain to me the "advantage" of doing it without the spacer. I will let you all know what they say.

Charles

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Yea Great Lakes is where I got mine from and they had the DOM spacers and Grade 8 bolts. Maybe they figured that L spacer thingy is good?? Not sure I like that setup though :grumble:

[Brad W.]

great lakes makes good stuff, I just question the judgement of a open sided spacer... hence my confusion because i've nevre seen spacers like that before.

you could always grind off the welds and remove those. See if you can get him to cut you some from tube and just grind those off.

[1977Waggy]

I haven't gotten a responce from my email yet. Depending on what he says, I am going to ask him to send me the spacers and grind off the angle pieces. To me, its kinda false advertising to show a pic of the product and then send something different. I am going to see what the word is before proceeding.

Charles

[HotRodYJ]

Like everyone else, my brackets use DOM spacers also. I don't like the look of those bent pieces. I bought my 14B diff cover from Great Lakes thru eBay. Decent product, but not as professional as I expected. The weld splatter was still present and hadn't been cleaneed off. Also ticked me off a little, the guy waited 3 weeks after he got my money before he ever shipped my part. During the 3 weeks I called and talked with him several times and he kept moving his date on me. I left him negative feedback for taking so long and jerking me around and of course he turned aroudn and slammed me for being a bad customer. Not sure if I'd ever deal with him again after that experience.

[1977Waggy]

hey HotRod, did you recenter your H1 wheels?

[1977Waggy]

His exact responce:

"One word accuracy and fit. The problem w/ the spacers was that saw cutting
them left them angled and slightly different lengths. I felt that by laser
cutting tabs and forming them. Then welding them to the brackets I am
producing a better product for the end user. IE: no fitment issues as the
calipers and rotors should line up everytime."

What do you guys think?

CHarles

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Yes I did notice that the DOM was not cut square on mine. I trimmed them up a bit to even them out. However I never considered it a big issue, not like they can go anywhere. That is what bothers me about them angle pieces, while they may be uniform ect. ect. the fact that if the spot welds fail and you start dropping them spacers to the ground, you will have a loose bracket. I am not sure I would run them as they are...........as mentioned have another piece added and a full weld would make me feel better, though I am much more satisfied with the DOM spacers.

[HotRodYJ]

To begin with DOM spacers should be lathe cut not saw cut. My DOM's are perfect. Got my brackets off of eBay but I don't recall who the manufacturer was.

[scotty]

i dont really care for the idea of DOM spacers,but i do think thats a better way to go than the little angle thingys.

when i got my brackets,i got them from a guy that gave you a single ring,with 4 holes for the spacer.i feel the spacer being 1 solid piece is much better than 4 seperate pieces.

i personally would get the most peace of mind from cutting off the angle things,and then using DOM tubing,and connecting all 4 tubes together with some other tubing or flatstock.

[orangecherokee]

I'll go ahead and show my initial ignorance. What's the big deal? It's a bracket and is bolted to the axle. The wheel doesn't ride on it and there's no real weight issues beside the weight of the caliper and pads. If it aligns properly I say run it.

[scotty]

What's the big deal? It's a bracket and is bolted to the axle. The wheel doesn't ride on it and there's no real weight issues beside the weight of the caliper and pads. If it aligns properly I say run it.

i agree completely. im sure it would be fine and you would not have any issues with it.

if it were mine,id change it,even tho the reasons for doing so may be 100% psychological ;)

[orangecherokee]

the only strength issue I see on second look is the shear of the bolts. you'll be running grade 8s on both set ups (either DOM or angle brackets). So once again I say run it :thumbsup:

[HotRodYJ]

You have to look at the leverage effect on those bolts also. When you lock up the tires, that's a bunch of stress trying to make those bolts turn with the wheel. It's not just shear, it's turning and twisting of the whole assembly. The more it's spaced out, the worse the leverage and twist.

[orangecherokee]

You have to look at the leverage effect on those bolts also. When you lock up the tires, that's a bunch of stress trying to make those bolts turn with the wheel. It's not just shear, it's turning and twisting of the whole assembly. The more it's spaced out, the worse the leverage and twist.

true but my point is that they are spaced out equally. either you use DOM or those brackets, they are still spaced the same. you also use the same bolts for both applications.

[wickedwagon767]

Another plus of swapping to discs

you will save in the proximity of 75 lbs of weight!

:drivin:

[1977Waggy]

I think I'm just gonna run um. I post some pics when I start the install.

Charles

[1977Waggy]

I have disassembled the outers of the 14 bolt to install new bearings and the disk brake kit. I am curious as to where I can find new spindle lock washers, the ones that were there are pretty beat up and I think I should replace them. Everything else went pretty smooth.

Thanks

Charles

[1977Waggy]

Nobody?

Is it a dumb question?

Should I just reuse them, I will take a pic and then maybe someone can chime in.

Thanks,

Charles

[BRUTUS]

Nobody?

Is it a dumb question?

Should I just reuse them, I will take a pic and then maybe someone can chime in.

Thanks,

Charles

Just re-use them. Mine were beat up but just so long as it will still hold on to the nut it is still good. I am not sure if you can buy those anyways.