M715 dana 60 question

[jeepfan93]

Hey guys. I have been thinking, (waiting to get money) and with my front 60 closed knuckle, is there any way of converting these the knuckles or whatever, to an open knuckle with a regular bolt pattern? I'm almost thinking it might be worth it to just get another axle. But by the time I get another axle, and rebuild it I will have more than double into it than trying to convert it to what I want. I plan on a spring over and high steer so either way it's coming apart. Also while on the subject, what about converting the rear hubs to a regular bolt pattern? I have been looking at Pirate 4x4 and other sites but no one had any info on this, so I'm guessing it might not be feasible. Any thoughts?

[Elliott]

You can convert them to 8 lug with disc brakes, and you can spend a lot of effort to go 35 spline, but you can't convert them to open knuckle as far as I know. I think the axle tube is too small to fit a D60 C. Although you might be able to sleeve your tube to fit the D60 sleeve, by the time you spent the $ and effort....

[Carl78Cher]

Deadenbear makes inner Cs for different tube diameters but they are around $250 ea. If you want to swap the entire axle contact Doug on Pirate4x4 in the vendor section. His user name is Highhonda, he sells D60s at good prices and usually has quite a few in stock.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=499358
or his web site
http://www.extremeaxlesales.com/

[FSJ Guy]

This has been discussed many times on the M715 boards. You'll end up money ahead with a new(used, whatever) axle. Between converting the bolt pattern, the axle shaft, and addding disc brakes, and doing a high steer conversion, you're better off buying a NEW axle from Dynatrac.

That said, I like the look of the military hubs on my 715, so I bought some used wheels with the original centers welded inside then. Someday I'll do the disc brake conversion, too...

[Mikel]

Unless you want to keep your truck original, get a pair of modern axles. It will be cheaper, simpler, and you will be much happier.

[jeepfan93]

Thanks guys that's what I thought. I wanted to try to keep it somewhat original, otherwise it's an over glorified Jtruck with a flat windshield. But i will be using this truck, as much as I can in this over developed state anyway, I suppose a nice set of original axles should fetch some money to recoup my out lay on newer axles.

[8379qtj10]

Mud boggers around here have found a way the mod the closed knuckle and make it stonger....but I can't find out how
huss huss I guess.

[scotty]

biggest prollem with close knuckles is the bolts that hold on the spindle pulling out of the knuckle :eek:

you can fix that by replacing the bolts with a stud that have a flat end to hold them in place,like a wheel lug. i dont know if the m715 guys use something special,but when i get around to installing my close knuckle 70 i plan to dig aroung until i find a wheel lug that will work.

the prollems with close knuckles are not so much with close knuckles,but what comes along with that-usually drum brakes,and inferior axlesahfts. in the case of the m715 44 size shafts and u joints.

i have heard that you can use rear 60 or 70 hubs on the close knuckle spindle. if that works it would be an easy/cheap way to change the wheel bolt pattern.

if that works,or if you can live with the m715 wheels upgading the shafts and diff is not too tough. the way i look at it is that if im prolly going to spend $$ on high strength shafts and a locker for my front,even if ive allready paid $800 for it,so i dont think this $$ on the close knuckle axle is badly spent.

some info on building up an m715 60:
http://www.cj7jeep.com/m715_temp3/m715_35spline.html

my 2 cents,for whatever theyre worth :)

[FSJ Guy]

Good luck selling the 715 axles. With the odd bal lug pattern and Titantic-sized turning radius, they're only attractive to the M715 crowd, who usually already have a set. <g>

[jeepfan93]

Well after checking out Ebay, I guess buying a new set of axles, at least a front, won't be so bad. As far as the axle ratio, do these have different carriers, for different ratios? Like with lockers ususally say 4.11 and down, etc? I figure i could just swap the front for now and do something with the rear hubs to match? I wish i knew more but i'm learning quick.

[jeepfan93]

Hey Ethan, I was looking around your site, great stuff, but no info on your drivetrain, I am curious as to what you did. The only pix of the engine i see are with the underhood lighting, looks like an AMC motor? What about your axles? Brake system? I'm looking to do hydroboost, 4 wheel disc's TBI or TPI chevy motor, sm465 or nv4500 trans keep the D200 case. Also kind of out of the way here, but how do you guys make these cool sites?
Lou
Good luck selling the 715 axles. With the odd bal lug pattern and Titantic-sized turning radius, they're only attractive to the M715 crowd, who usually already have a set. <g>

[Brad W.]

ok, first off, you dont have a d200 transfer case. the m715 came with the np200, the predecessor to the np205. civillian jeeps have a dana 20. You want to use neither of these behind a healthy drivetrain. The dana 20 is not great under the weight and power of a big truck. some people will argue this for days, but I can tell you from experience, you dont want to go with a small civy t-case. The np200 has it's own issues... they get hot... REALLY hot. do not expect it to live long if you like to keep up with traffic. again, some people have had good luck, but I would not recommend trying your luck only to have it go BOOM in your face. See farther down for what to do about this.

Now, on to axles:
grab a GM dana 60 for the front. It will be the most expensive part of the conversion, but well worth it. For the rear find a GM 14-bolt from a similar rig as the front axle, or from a van. Often you can get a pair of axles with matching gears (normally 4.56, sometimes 4.10) by looking for CUCV takeouts. Some of the CUCV takeouts come with lockers in one or both axles, depending on what they came out of. Other gear ratios are available in civy trucks, be careful what you buy. Also avoid the "gov-loc" or "trash-loc" as they are not so affectionately called. They have this name for a reason, and have a reputation as by far one of the worst OEM posi-type limited slip diffs ever made. My one ton had one, it was the biggest POS I have ever been around. If you get a good deal on an axle pair with one, go for it, but plan to replace it (which, btw, requires you to change the carrier. find an open carrier and slap in a detroit).
Shop around, expect to pay $1000-$1500 for the average pair of one-ton axles. Do not attempt to reuse your m-715 gears/carriers/etc, because that ratio bites and they dont really swap anyway.

As for drivetrain: the AMC motor mounts are an incredibly easy, nearly bolt in swap. There are also Novak adapter mounts for the SBC/BBC motors if you prefer that. NV4500's are going to cost you your first born and then some (and they have 5th gear issues), you'd be better off with a t18 (if you go AMC motor), a ford np435, or a chevy sm465 (watch out for 465's with bad 3rd gear synchros, it's common).



IMHO, the smartest thing for you to do is find a one ton chevy with a crappy body, and use it as a donor. they come with at least a SBC (often 454 bbc), can be had with TBI (1986.5-1988, and up to 1991 in crew-cabs and blazers), and either come with a th400/np205, 700R4/np205, or one of two different sm465/np205 combos.

Buying a post-1986 donor will get you the one-ton axles, fuel injection, and a good tran/t-case combo. the earlier years use an sm465 with a 10-spline output, and a "figure 8" or "peanut" input style np205. these are far inferior to the later years which use a 32-spline sm465 and a round "new process" or "NP" input style np205. late 80's donors could also have an automatic, dont let it scare you. The th400/np205 is by far the best combo available for easy swapping, and for ultimate strength. They are a massive pig of a drivetrain, and you will not be dissappointed. It is the only transmission that will ever reside in my ridiculously overbuilt wagoneer, EVER, PERIOD. The TH-400 can be built to the hilt with NHRA-spec clutch packs (red alto or blue plate special), Kolene steels, Kevlar bands, and a wide array of valve bodies, shift kits, shifters, pans, and about a hundred other aftermarket goodies. They can be adapted to about any doubler, crawler box, klune, atlas, np-series t-case, you name it. You can get one in 4x4 or 2wd if you want to go divorced, but you're better off getting one that mates directly to the round-pattern NP-205.

so, in short, get a chevy donor one ton. OR get a set of CUCV axle, and peice the other stuff together. This is the stuff I have run in 2 different rigs now, and I wouldn't go any other way for all the tea in china (or boston harbor).

[scotty]

great advice. nothing wrong with that route at all if you have the $$.

say you find a running chevy donor for $1000,wich is a pretty conservative guess. if the axle needs rebuilt,factor that in,as well as high strength shafts and a locker. all this could easily run you another $1000 :eek:

if you can live with the big 6 lug wheel bolt pattern,you can easily buy shafts and a locker and maybe freshen up the seals for under $1000. you can prolly even do it way cheaper if you scrounge for a used diff and some stock shafts.

the end result is still a locked,35 spline front axle with big u joints,for half the $$ or less of buying a chevy parts truck. prolly alot less,since its unlikely youll find a running chevy parts truck with a dana 60 front that cheap.

not saying one way is better than the other,just that there are alot of ways to skin the cat if youre not afraid to be different. :drivin:

[FSJ Guy]

The axles are stock, D60 and D70, with stock gearing (5.87). The rear axle has a Detroit No Spin that replaces the spider gears inside the D70's 2 piece differential. The motor is an AMC 360, TH400 trans and QT transfer case. Modified driveshafts connect everything.

[Brad W.]

see, i was assuming he wanted to go to a modern front end. The m715 D60 housing isn't the best thing in the world, but yes, you can update the shafts and try to convert it to studs so you dont pull the spindle out. I have no idea what to suggest for that though.

you can easily pickup a k-30 for around $1500, less if you dont mind a wrecked one, or you find someone elses engine donor, etc... and you really dont have to throw alot of money at the axles. It'd be a good idea to put in new bearings and seals, that's basically all you need to do for a mild build, other than gears.

That's why the CUCV takeouts are so awesome. they may cost you a few hundred more, but most of those have 40k or less on them, so they are practically new. Repack the wheel bearings, change the 90w, and you are good to go. Not to mention matching 4.56 gears (great for a mild jeep build), and the chance at snagging a detroit (or two).

[jeepfan93]

Well i would updated or to up date my axles. Been looking at donor trucks. Mine already has the front and rear locked, but I would disc brakes all the way around. I'm going with 40's and an injected SBC. Seen some decent deals on dabay, been looking at some local yards also. I plan on having to rebuild whatever I get so they don't have be pretty or perfect, just in one piece. I was looking to keep something original about the truck but I guess that isn't going to happen. I do want it to be reliable streetable and kick the crap out of all my friends TJ's.

[jeepfan93]

Another question, I have a chance at a really cheap D60 out of a dodge.
It has 65 inches WMS to WMS and 4.10 gears. Then all I goota find is a front. 14 bolts are way too much for me to spend. I will find a D60 for the front and rebuild both eventually. Is it ok to swap it with my stock 715 D70.

[FSJ Guy]

I just ordered the front disc conversion kit for my 715. I talked with Ray @ Helitool and he had one available.

I don't know if he has anymore avail, but it might be work a look if you *do* want to keep the stock axles since you have lockers in them already. www.uglytruckling.com

[jeepfan93]

I was thinking about what you said, about changing the hubs, I'm also looking at buying a CUCV from a gov't auction site. I really like the idea of having a normal wheel pattern. I've seen disc brake conversions from a few places so not that worried anymore. At the same time this D60 rear could be a smoking deal for me seeing how the wife has implemented a new budget for us. I justified the CUCV because I can get most of the big parts on one rig. Ethan thank you for the info on your truck, I hope you don't mind, but I may steal a few of your ideas, (axles and doors) for mine. Speaking of doors, beacuse I still have the MIL cab but the original glass is in there, I'm fabricating my own window channels from rear door components, using your work as a template.

[scotty]

14 bolts are way too much for me to spend.

what? :confused: around here you can pick them up anywhere from free to $200. used in millions of 3/4 ton trucks and vans from 73 onward,theyre a dime a dozen.

the 60 rear has 44 sized axlesahfts at 1.31" and 30 splines. the 14 bolt allready has 1.5" shafts,a beefier housing and diff.

the 60 needs aftermarket shafts and the spindles bored to make it 35 spline,so youll spend more in the long run building it into a compareable axle to a 14 bolt,or the 70 thats currently in your truck

[jeepfan93]

I guess the 60 I just got Ebay can go in the Wag. I might go the way FSJguy did and work with my current axles. The again I have alot of other work I can do for now until I can afford all that. Anybody know if a 360 will bolt up to the stoc 715 trans.
what? :confused: around here you can pick them up anywhere from free to $200. used in millions of 3/4 ton trucks and vans from 73 onward,theyre a dime a dozen.

the 60 rear has 44 sized axlesahfts at 1.31" and 30 splines. the 14 bolt allready has 1.5" shafts,a beefier housing and diff.

the 60 needs aftermarket shafts and the spindles bored to make it 35 spline,so youll spend more in the long run building it into a compareable axle to a 14 bolt,or the 70 thats currently in your truck

[FSJ Guy]

Uh, I don't know about the stock trans. However, a TH400/QT combo will work if you like a slushbox and it keeps your driveshafts on the correct side, too. <g>

[Brad W.]

I think you can get an adapter for the T-98 stock trans to AMC 360, but you are honestly better off with a different transmission. A two wheel drive version of the Ford np-435 would be an easy swap, you can use a jeep t-176 bellhousing to adapt it to the jeep motor. search around or ask people who have done it, I think Elliot has.

using a 2wd version you could stay divorced and retain the np200

[jeepfan93]

Yea but I've been told the NP200 won't last under highway speeds and won't last with the 360 I'm putting in. I do have a couple of differnet drivetrains sitting around, I can go with a 727 229 combo, or I have a low mileage rebuilt 400 and Qtrac here, both off the same truck rebuilt by the same shop. I was incredibly smooth when I pulled it to scrap the body. I think with my current situation I might go with the Qtrac just to get it going, and swap in the stick later on down the road when finances are a little better. I figure it's just fab work mostly, little incedentals like mounts, driveshafts and such. Better than $400 for custom stuff from advanced or Novak. As stated I would like to keep Jeep parts in it. Since my finances changed I have been learning to keep busy with "free" work for now, welding holes closed, looking around at the two 15x15 storage shed worth of parts I have here and working with what I got. Now that I think about it, going with the Qtrac might be better for now, since it's here, been rebuilt and has a part time kit in it. I even kept the 400 to qtrac crossmember So I can modify it to work on it. Hmmm, a plan is forming...........:rolleyes:
I think you can get an adapter for the T-98 stock trans to AMC 360, but you are honestly better off with a different transmission. A two wheel drive version of the Ford np-435 would be an easy swap, you can use a jeep t-176 bellhousing to adapt it to the jeep motor. search around or ask people who have done it, I think Elliot has.

using a 2wd version you could stay divorced and retain the np200

[scotty]

the t98 is the predcessor to the t18,and some parts even exchange,like the top cover. it will be noiser than a more modern tranny,but i wouldnt say its a week tranny.

id pull the bell and see if the t150/176 bell will bolt to it similarly to the way it bolts to the ford version of the t18 or np 435.

if the bell fits,go ahead and swap in the amc motor with the stock trans to keep the fabbing to a minimum,all your driveshafts will be the same :)

once you have trouble with the t98,swap in a ford t18 or 435. once you have trouble with the np200 swap in a dodge 205.

if you could find a 4wd 435/205 or t18/208,you could even stick that in front of the np200 and have a really simple "poor mans doubler" :thumbsup:

[Brad W.]

I would definetly run the QT over the 229, the QT in ethan's rig seems to beholding up fine.

[FSJ Guy]

The Jeep version NP 229 has the front output on the WRONG side, too. The QT is on the correct side.

You can weld plate steel to the end of the stock crossmember and bolt that to the existing mounts under the frame. That's how the PO (Alan) did mine. It works great and if I ever need to remove the crossmember, I can, since it's simply bolted in with 4 bolts.

[jeepfan93]

Good point. Yea i think I'll start with the qtrac case and see how it does. I'll take a look tomorrow and get some rough measurements for the stock trans, less fab work the better. Due to finances, this is going to be
PROJECT M7CHEAPTEEN. I know chessy to say the least, but man am I gonna learn to get creative. I'm gonna earn my built not bought sticker on this one. :eek:
The Jeep version NP 229 has the front output on the WRONG side, too. The QT is on the correct side.

You can weld plate steel to the end of the stock crossmember and bolt that to the existing mounts under the frame. That's how the PO (Alan) did mine. It works great and if I ever need to remove the crossmember, I can, since it's simply bolted in with 4 bolts.

[Elliott]

I think you can get an adapter for the T-98 stock trans to AMC 360, but you are honestly better off with a different transmission. A two wheel drive version of the Ford np-435 would be an easy swap, you can use a jeep t-176 bellhousing to adapt it to the jeep motor. search around or ask people who have done it, I think Elliot has.

using a 2wd version you could stay divorced and retain the np200

Yep, here's pics of the Ford NP435/T176 bell, the bell bolts directly up with no mods. Your shifter will be moved forward due to the shortened length, but you can bend it to fit if it's not close enough already. This is the 4wd version for comparison:

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10016/NP435-T176Bell.JPG

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10016/NP435-T176Bellhousing.JPG

[jeepfan93]

Thanks Elliot food for thought. Shame I gotta bolt up a Ford trans. And lemme guess the T176 bellhousing won't bolt up to my trans right?

[Elliott]

I'm pretty sure the T98 won't work with the T176 bell, not sure about the bolt pattern, but the input is going to be the wrong length for one. The T98 didn't oil as well as anyway. If you were to use a Ford NP435 in a 2wd version they are pretty cheap and easy to come by, there is a T176 bell on e-bay right now at ~$25 with no bids on it and no reserve. Swap in a divorced 205 and you'd be doing real well for the long haul.

NV4500 5sp is a very sweet option (I can tell you where you can get 2wd NV4500 for $600 with no core and it's rebuilt):

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Users/Elliott/NP205MountDivorced.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Users/Elliott/NP205Mount2Divorced.jpg