Too tall!?!

[TINMAN93]

Well, I've come to a very hard truth. My Jeep is too tall. Ya, I know, how could this be. How could any Jeep be too tall. Well, It's wasn't any easy truth to come to, and dropping it is going to be even harder, but the truth is, it's the right thing to do. Ya, I like the way it looks, but looks aren't everything? Now, I got some compliments about the new height, but it doesn't quite feel right, it looks good, but doesn't feel right. It wasn't bad with the 32's, but when I strapped on the 35's, well the realization that it was too tall came to light. When I did the big lift to 7" I had the driveshafts built, the shocks ordered, the bump stops set and the tires and gears matched. Last summer I thought a couple of more inches would be better. I could keep the shocks and Driveshafts since the overall travel would be the same, and since I was looking at 35's I thought I needed the extra height. But after putting the 35's on, I found that the extra lift did nothing for tire clearence, but plenty for ride feel. At every turn, bump and of camber obstacle I tried while testing the 35's, I found my self neversly trying to right the beast. I was top heavy. Yes, I know it's hard to believe, I try to eat right ---oops that's another problem. But yes, the GW got squirlly and uneasy. I now realize that extra body height is not what I needed, it was more axle clearence and the 35's will help there. So this weekend I'm pulling a couple of leaves out and re-seting the spring eyes to bring it back down to the 7" of lift that all the parts were designed to work with. I'll still have all the articulation and suspension travel but with the GW being closer to the ground I'll have the most important thing - a more stable ride. The 35's will work the same, but with better ground clearence and lower overall height. I had to take a hard look at how I actually use my Jeep most of the time, and rock crawling isn't, and never was in the plan. I had a serious trail rig in mind from the first time we wheeled in Colorado. I wanted an all-around rig that could do some rocks if it had to, but was really happy on the trails and moderate obstacles. The Grandragon is big, and heavy, and will never be nimble on the rocks without some serious cutting and modifying and I'm not ready for such major changes (yet). I kind of like the old woody the way she looks, so I'm bringing it down out of the clouds to give it a better trail feel. After all, that's what sliders and skid plates are for, those occasional rocks. I beleive the overall ride will be much better with the 32's on the street, and when the 35's come out for the trail, I'll be able to keep my blood pressure down.
Tinman
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q108/tinman93/GWSnowtracks06-2.jpg

[tkiller13]

Lower it down if it suits your needs better..Either way its a sweet looking ride.

[fulsizjeep]

When you say "the bump stops set"... Is that to prevent the tires from rubbing on sheet metal? I would think that 35s would need a little trim in the fenders (rear at least) to clear serious flexing. If the bump stops have been changed to prevent too much suspension flex, the rig could feel and be more unstable on off camber approaches. I personally like the way my 4-5" suspension lift is working with 33s but there was body trimming to allow the most flex. Just a thought. No doubt your 91 looks pretty darn good the way it sets now. :thumbsup: Good Luck!

[Desert Beast]

keep the 35"s lower it and crack out the sawzall.

[Elliott]

Uhmm, top heavy... just buy heavier axles and go with a wider track. As far as ride quality, buy better seats.;)

[Bama Burden]

Yeah the only option other than lowering, is wider axles. I can understand if you don't want to :sawzall:.
What kind of steering setup do you have?

[AlsChopShop]

instead of moving backwards, find some wider wheels or ones with less backspacing so your track is wider. i'm not surprised it feels tippy with stock stock wheels and those narrow track axles. the other option is to slap on widetrack axles, that way you can keep your stock wheels but at the stability of the wider stance. i actually was scared of my own rig in stock form, but throwing on 2-3" lift springs up front actually made it ride better and feel less tippy. you may consider a stiffer spring pack setup, maybe custom springs. i like the stiffness up front with the flexy stock springs in the rear, it really lets it move but still feel stable.

btw, that is one of the sweetest wags i've ever seen, do you have info/pics on your front winch mount/skidplate and how you relocated your bumper up? it looks sick! :thumbsup:

Al

[8379qtj10]

W/T's would help a lot and a go set can be found easliy.

[BRUTUS]

IIRC '91's had anti-sway bars front and rear right? Could it be as simple as finding a "stouter" anti-sway bar? <shrug>

[jode]

Part of the driveability problem may be in the tires themselves. I am constantly amazed at how crappy some tires make the ride and how the problem goes away with decent tires.

[Tad]

Why do you think you are too tall?
(I read it but it does not make sense to me.)

I am sitting SOA, 2" BL + 2" spring, on HD44 + Welded 14Bolt.
I run some backspacing (4 5/8"), bias ply's about 35" tall, but that's not severe BS.
My track width is not that wide, really, it's not, I barely stick out past the NT fenders.
I run a welded rear, no steering stabilizer, just a J20 steering box.
No sway bar, trac bar, any bar (never had that stuff).
It's a bit loud with the bias ply's on the highway, but it is very secure off road.
I'm not a maverick by any stretch (get in, get out, try not to break anything) but it's really pretty stable up there.

That's a great looking rig, but it does not look too tall to me.
I used to drive a Burb for work, 4" lift, that was a bit creepy.

Are there other issues going on?
Frame, steering, etc...?

[billyrb]

After looking at that picture, there are two important things missing that will affect your stability and feeling of comfort.....steering stabilizer shock and swaybar quick disconnects. I'd be willing to make a nickel bet that adding those two items would do WONDERS for your rig & ride quality.....

[jhepp]

I think less lift would be the second best thing besides great shocks,correct air presure,and good tires.I notice you are running BFG muds and I have heard and experianced them being the best tire or worst tire for a vehicle,some are touchy to tires.Kinda off subject but later 4x4 Tahoes hate Mud tires in general have not met anyone happy w/ any brand

[Lazarus]

well, that sure is a purdy truck ya got there... I would say its all in trac width... wider wheels are for you!!!

and I will be the first to coment on that neat looking dual tank/ fill setup

[funwheeling]

Do you have pictures of your skid plates?

[swedester]

did you really think it would handle great with that setup?look at the rims,7" wide?with a 35" tall tire,that aint going to be stable,if that is a 12,5x35 tire,the recommended rim width,would be 8,5 to 10 inches,right?
I had 37x12,5 on 8" and that was to narrow rim for daily use,only reason I used a 2" narrower wheel than recommended,was the fact that I was a cheap bastard:) maybe you could borrow 4 rims and try first,before you lower it.

[TINMAN93]

The wheels in the pic are not the ones I'm using. They were used just to check the height clearence, and get the pics in the snow. I mounted the 35's on 8" rockcrawlers w/3" backspacing. I use 4 shocks up front and two rear, Procomp 9000's. Yes I have a sway bar disconnect and no there is no sway bar on the rear. The rear fenders have been Sawzalled to match the front angles, front and rear and then filled with 3/8" cold round. The D44's I have now are well built with Moser Axles, OX locker in rear, Quick lock up front and 4 wheel disk, I'm not ready to change them yet. The biggest concern has been where am I driving it the most. I wheel maybe 5 times a year at the parks nearby. The rest is DD or the local trails, nothing to wild. The real truth is I don't need the 9" of lift to wheel, and the drop is just 2". back to where the shocks, driveshafts and such were originally measured and built. The springs are Rough Countrys with a couple of added leafs here and their. I still think the look and ride will be fine with only 7" of lift. And getting in and out should be easier too, I'm not that young anymore. The bump stops are set just before the shocks crush. They do not limit travel, I've had the tires stuffed all the way in the wells, not shy in testing the flex. The main reason to lower is still the feel in the seat, my seat. I'm sure that the stability isn't going to be greatly alterd by the 2", but still my peace of mind will be. As time passes, and my wheeling progresses (ie: more scars on the body) I'm sure to do more cutting and lifting as needed. But for now, my mind and my wallet aren't ready. I sure do appreciate all the feedback. I've learned alot since using this site. As far as the pics go, I'll try to get some and post them. I think that covers this round. Again thanks for the info, and when I and my wallet are ready to do more, I'll be asking here first for guidence.
Thanks, Tinman

[Tad]

did you really think it would handle great with that setup?look at the rims,7" wide?with a 35" tall tire,that aint going to be stable,if that is a 12,5x35 tire,the recommended rim width,would be 8,5 to 10 inches,right?...
:lol:
Bunk :eek:
I drive bias ply H1's - 36x12.5's on 6.75" wide rims down the interstate on a regular basis.
Not a pretty sound, but it's not unstable, 2 fingers, 65-70 MPH :drivin:

[Brad W.]

It has jack sprat to do with wheel width of a 7" vs 8". that's what tire shops tell you to sell wheels. I call BS.

IMHO- it's a little tall for 35's, i think you will like the 2" drop. You didnt say how your lift was built, i'm assuming all springs? you running a body lift?

Just from my experience, the first thing to go should be a body lift. They are nothing but problems IMHO. If you arent running one, pull some leaves and get out the saw.

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Users/BCW1284/sawzall1.jpg

[AlsChopShop]

You didnt say how your lift was built, i'm assuming all springs? you running a body lift? looking at the pic, he's SOA. + maybe 2" springs or 2" BL? :thumbsup:

Al

[TINMAN93]

Going down the highway at 70 is just fine, but the turns at 45 get a little pushy. There is no body lift, but the rear wheel openings have been opened up to match the front shape. It has a spoa up front with 3" ROUGH COUNTRY springs plus 4 extra leafs. The rear also has a 3" R.C. springs, a 2" block and the spring mounts moved down. I'm planning on removing 2 leafs from the front and moving them to the rear. Then moving the rear pack mounts up 4" to improve the spring angle. This will give it an overall drop of 2" in rear and 2.5" in front which will give it a little rake. Right now it's just a smigin high in front. Still, the main reason for the drop is the overall ride quality in all situations. I drive it on the street most of the time. When the time comes that I'm draging the bottom too much on the trails, I'll look at another change. It's one of my toys and therefor always a work in progress. It might not be the popular thing, but for now it's what it needs.

Tinman

[AlsChopShop]

4 extra leafs, per spring??

sounds like a good plan what you are going to do. let us know how it turns out.

Al

[Duke(Gwag)]

lifts are tricky. your fine with small lifts but after a certin height theres just too much that needs to be done to fit the new ride. my dad's S-10 has a 6'in lift and for the longest time that thing was a turd. it was crap. vibration in steering and in ride in general. So i did what every one does to make it work spend more money. New bushings, mounts, Shock Asorbers Longer brake lines, and bigger tires & rims. Now she rides smoth but it leaves a hole in the pocket. Side note wieght distrabution for hudge lifts sucks, need to find the right balance.

[Brad W.]

instead of moving the mounts 4", why dont you move them 2" and throw away those blocks. blocks are great fun until they crack and fall out in peices. BTDT, it's no fun at all. I'd sacrifice a little spring angle to avoid blocks.

[fulmetal]

I have had my SOA for almost 9 years now, I run dual Tie-rods for strength, stock springs that are known for there flex. And it goes places I have no business being.

ps:hope the link is not to large, sorry in advance if it is. learning this new format.

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=3230&stc=1&d=1168994246

[TINMAN93]

It was a ilittle icy here last weekend. But I managed to finnish just in time to loose power in the shop at work and get stuck in, not to mention the frozen, locked gates with 2" of ice on them, and around, and under. Any ways, what I ended up with was 5 leaf pack in front and 9 leaf pack in rear with the 2" block in rear for height and pinion angle correction. I have no fear with a 2" steel block from Rough Country. I agree that no block is best, but aluminum is a no-no. I finally got it out of the shop Monday. I had to run an extension cord to the door motor and use a generator to power the 14' x 12' heavy door. We didn't get power back till Wednesday. Any ways, first drive was great! The little rake sure made the view over the hood nice and the ride was perfect. Softer but not mushy. Turns are confidant and the overall feel was great. I think I finally got the right set-up. Here is the pic.



Tinman

[Steelhead]

That looks really good. I too ended up with a little rake, which I really like. Are those your 35's? Can you provide some more info or pics on your bumber guard/ winch mount? That thing looks awesome.

[TINMAN93]

It has the 32's on it for the street. The front bumper goes like this. The Winch mount is the universal from MM. I got it with the winch through 4wheelparts. I cut the corners off and filled them in to match the front and sides. It's welded on top of the 2" receiver I welded to the front frame cross bar and reinforced with legs from a 5th wheel trailer hitch. The bumper ends are bolted to 1.5" dom bars welded to the frame and winch support. They are also lifted about 6", just to the bottom of the headlights. I moved the turn signals behind the grill just above the fog lights. I'm going ot either install LED bulbs or change the lights. Not so visible all the time. The rear is an .188 plate in the center welded to .5" steel brackets which are bolted to matching brackets welded to the rear frame cross bar. Like the front the aluminum bumper ends are bolted to 1.5" dom tubing welded to the frame. I "tested" them on a couple of trees and they held up fine. Here are some pics.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q108/tinman93/E-REARBMPR7.jpg (http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q108/tinman93/E-FRNTBMPR1.jpg)http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q108/tinman93/E-FRNTBMPR8.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q108/tinman93/E-FRNTBMPR1.jpg

[shimniok]

I didn't have the patience to read the other posts. :D

Couple thoughts...

Maybe you can go wider. I run WT axles from an 80-83 Chero. I theorize a narrower rear Chero axle is better than wider J10/J20 axle from a stability standpoint on short wheelbase. *shrug*

Also, instead of stock rims you may benefit from 8" rims to bring the wheels out a little more.

As for CO trails, I run up to 8-rated stuff with 4" lift, 33's and lockers. So 35's and 6+" lift isn't strictly necessary tho it'd make it a little easier.

WT axles require more trimming for clearance. I think you need to trim if you want to go shorter with 33's or esp. 35's and certainly WT axles.

Mine is stable on trails and hwy--- even with the all-steel roof rack. I do notice any significant extra weight up top and try to run light off road. Point being you may not have to go too wide or too short to improve stability.

Michael