Ignition upgrade?

[jod man]

I am a new IFSJ member and am in the process of fixing up my J-10. I have just rebuilt the motor and carb. I am wondering if anyone has done the Jacobs ignition upgrade or Direct Hits upgrade to a 258. I have not yet driven the truck with the new motor in it, should I wait until then and see just how much the .003 over gives me, or do these ignition upgrades work as well as the reviews say they do.

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'83 J-10
Sportside Honcho
258-4 speed
totally stock (for now)

[rawdave]

I have installed Jacobs in the AMC 360. It was well worth the money. I went from 12 mpg to 15 mpg mixed driving. And it idled perfectly. There is also a GM HEI conversion for the 258.

If you want some good I6 performance stuff, check out http://www.cliffordperformance.com they specialize in Inline 6 aftermarket performance products. I just ordered the Accel BilletProof distributor and Accel 300+ ignition box for my latest Grand Wagoneer AMC 360. I will post the results when i have it installed.

[joe]

Jod, I'm not a big fan of the over priced Jacobs/MSD etc systems. Some folks swear by'em and quite a few saw no big performance or mpg increase at all except maybe a smoother idle. A few hundred dollars for a smoother idle isn't much bang for the buck to me.
The GM HEI swap was mentioned below. I would check into that before dropping $300-$400 on an ignition system I personally haven't done the swap(haven't found a 258 yet) but have seen the results and it's a really nice system. Have a look at the link and see what you think. www.nacs.net/~djperk/Jeep/tech/hei.html (http://www.nacs.net/~djperk/Jeep/tech/hei.html)
-joe

[jod man]

Thanks Joe,

Anytime I can upgrade for less than 100$ makes me happy. I have a really stupid question, what does HEI stand for?

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'83 J-10
Sportside Honcho
258-4 speed
totally stock (for now)

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jod man:
Thanks Joe,

Anytime I can upgrade for less than 100$ makes me happy. I have a really stupid question, what does HEI stand for?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Jod lets not call it a "stupid" question cause I don't really know either http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif
I'm just guessing High Energy Ignition? That's the best I could come up with http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif
-joe

[lrrh]

And what a great upgrade this is. I did it to my buddys 81 Concord about 2 months ago. Runs superb now!

_LRRH_

[Manhattan]

I ran the MSD on my CJ's 360. It ran like a switch watch from 600 rpm to 7,000 rpm.

My '88 GW's newly rebuilt 360 uses stock ignition. It runs like a 12 year old AMC.

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a.k.a."Bushwood" '88 G-Wag' New 360, 3" Springs, 31" ATs, Custom Roof Rack, 2.5" Dynomax Exhaust... rest stock.

[jod man]

Anyone else done the HEI conversion? I think this is the way to go for me, thanks to Joe. The HEI does stand for High Energy Ignition, acording to my local mechanic.

------------------
'83 J-10
Sportside Honcho
258-4 speed
totally stock (for now)

[jod man]

thanks to everyone so far.

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'83 J-10
Sportside Honcho
258-4 speed
totally stock (for now)

[reddog]

If you have an electronic ignition (no points) already (sorry but I plead stupid when it comes to older 258s !) then I would do the TFI upgrade that a number of us have done on the 360. Its the same basic thing when done on a 258. You swap in a ford TFI (thick film integrated) coil and a "HEI" style rotor and cap, the cap needs the ford adapter.

I did it on my 87 Wag and I got the coil and adapter at the junk yard for under $10, the cap and rotor for $24 (Accel - brass contacts) and new plug wires $32. With this setup you can open up the spark plug gap to about .045. I picked up about 2 MPG and a little better acceleration. And this will fit into your budget.

Check this site out for the write up on the TFI upgrade. If you have the duraspark ignition (which I think you do) then your halfway there.

http://www.trailhed.com/duraspark%20upgrade.html

There is a place that sells a "kit" to do the same thing but I don't have his URL offhand - I'll take a look for it and post it if I find it.

I have had an MSD box in my boat and was happy with it. I have never heard anyone with a problem with the MSD other than cost. The Jacobs stuff is also costly and some people swear by it and some swear at it. To me it seems that Jacob's claims are a little too high to be realistic.

[This message has been edited by reddog (edited November 22, 2000).]

[jod man]

Ok,
So I checked out the link on TFI, and they said they kick the HEI system away by 1 1/2 times the performance. Granted both systems almost certainly are going to be an improvement, but which one is better. Maybee that is something I will have to decide on my own, imagine that, not relying on someone else to make the call http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

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'83 J-10
Sportside Honcho
258-4 speed
totally stock (for now)

[DerJeep]

Reddog,

Did the distributor spacer and cap from the Ford 460 fit OK on the 360? Did you have to move the fuel line from the fuel pump to the filter? It looks a little tight.



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1979 Wagoneer LTD
360/400TH/QT/44s
Warn locking hubs
2x4 Conversion

[RudyC]

Reddog,
Was the base that fits the AMC 360 only on those two years of the 460? I pulled the base off a 460 from a ford van and it was too wide for the distributer. Maybe it was the wrong year 460? The write up specified 79 and a 85 460 f350.

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1979 WAGONEER, 360, TH400, Q- TRAC. 3" ADD A LEAFS, 31" MUD T/A'S (PEP BOYS CLONES).
" Go farther, it only breaks on the street"

[scotty]

i dont think duraspark is so bad. the big difference is that the HEI has the coil and module right inside the cap-all in one place,wether or not thats really an advantage.

do you need to recurve a chevy distributor?seems odd that the amc 258 has the same ig curve as a GM 250.

ill have to check out the link above.

alot of guys in the local club here run a motorcraft 2bbl and HEI,and most of their jeeps run real good,tho i think most of it is the lack of a carter bbd carb.

mine idles ok for an old worn out engine.i dont think a better ig would help it.the biggest reason i dont really want to switch is that i question the waterproofability of the HEI with its integrated coil,etc. ive had my duraspark dist completely nderwater and my engine still running ust fine.anyone done that with an HEI?



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scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO swap very soon
searching for offset QT rear and PTO winch

[reddog]

Rudy and DerJeep,

I didn't find many 460s around the local yards. The adapter I have came off a early 80s 351. I saw quite a few on both 302s and a few 351s. I believe a few of the 6 cylinders had them too. Note that there a 2 types, ones held on by the 2 clips (that hold the cap on the 360) and ones that are held on by 2 screws. Of course we need the "clip" style. After reading the write up on the conversion and doing some research online and at the local parts stores I found that looking for the 460 (eec-IV ??) parts specified in the write up was not working - no one knew what the eec-IV stuff was and there are not alot early 80s 1-ton 460 trucks around in the junk yards.
I found there are alot of the TFI coils in the yards on early to late 80s Fords and Mercurys, which also have the adapters for the cap although quite a few were missing the distributors (thus missing the adapters).
I am not sure but I believe the TFI coils are the same for a 6 or an 8 cylinder. I suggest that you pay attention to the car you get the coil from as I say a number of cars that looked like they were "flood" recoveries. I would not take any electronics (coil) from those, although the connector for the coil and the adapter would not be a problem. Make sure to get the connector for the coil.
On my 87 Wag there was no clearance problems with the larger cap. I don't know if your 79s are much different.

Jodman, I saw that the TFI conversion write-up said that it is 1 1/2 times hotter than a GM HEI but I think he may be a little biased. I really doubt that it is. I've read write ups on the GM HEI conversion and he was poo-pooing the Duraspark ignition, I think its just the old Ford/Chevy rivalry thing. I think the advantage to the TFI conversion is you don't need a new distributor - I also like it because its staying with Ford parts like the rest of the existing ignition. I think Scotty has a good point also - a little silicone sealer on the cap/adapter and some grease on the coil connector and the ignition is quite waterproof (resistant! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif ).

Also welcome Jod Man!! There is a great bunch of guys here - to say nothing of the great wealth of FSJ info!!

Rambling as usual...

Kerry


[This message has been edited by reddog (edited November 23, 2000).]

[jod man]

Thanks for all the info guys. I had the wrecker look for an HEI out of a GM six today. He did not call me back yet, hope he finds one, my buddy just scrapped one a few months ago, but a few months ago my jeep was sitting in the weeds at my farm with a broken skirt on #5 pistin.

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'83 J-10
Sportside Honcho
258-4 speed
totally stock (for now)

[Jeepnut]

jod man,

I have done the HEI conversion on my 258 ('90 YJ) and I am very pleased with it. More power, quick starts, idles smooth at 700rpm, revs freely to 4000rpm. It's easy and cheap. Another advatage is the simplicity - all you need to carry on the trail is a spare coil and a module - the HEI module Will fit in your wallet (almost).

I swapped my carb and distributer at the same time. I went with a pre-computer Carter carb from a '79 Concord. Rebiult it and did dist. swap for under $200.


nd

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Jeepnut
Mesa 4-Wheelers
Mesa, AZ (Rockcrawling Utopia)
'87 SJ, mostly stock, mostly wrecked "yes...wood does bend"
'90 YJ SOA D44x2 Detroitx2 4:56 4:1
'97 Z71, pulls everything, never complains.

[jod man]

Just got off the phone with my favorite wrecker. Didn't have a HEI from a six. Are these that hard to find, or are mid 80s GM sixes that scarse?

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'83 J-10
Sportside Honcho
258-4 speed
totally stock (for now)

[Slippery]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jod man:
Are these that hard to find, or are mid 80s GM sixes that scarse?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

'74-'84 pickups & '74-'79 Novas are the only applications I know of. Anyone????



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"No FSJ yet, but wait..."

[jod man]

Found one at another wrecker, but he wants $75. I got to talk him down some.

Does anyone know where the wires that come out of the old distributor are suppused to go. They are on some kind of plug. Is one a power and the other for the tach, or do they go to the duraspark module?

Jod Man

[This message has been edited by jod man (edited November 24, 2000).]

[RudyC]

OK i just came back from the picka part. Got the Dist. base for my 360 for $1.00. Could have got the whole thing but the rotor and cap were worn, woohoo it fits.. Accel has the brass or copper dist cap and rotor.

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1979 WAGONEER, 360, TH400, Q- TRAC. 3" ADD A LEAFS, 31" MUD T/A'S (PEP BOYS CLONES).
" Go farther, it only breaks on the street"

[jod man]

Rudyc,

Is that $1 or $100 that you paid.

Jod Man

[RudyC]

Jodman,
Yea just one dollar. But thats for the plastic base and the cap. Just wanted to see if it would fit.I'm trying the ignition upgrade like REDDOG did on his 360 The base is $10.00 at Kragen. Alot to pay if it dont fit. It all fit but i tossed the cap as it was too wasted to use but the base adaptor was perfect..
I just need to get a new cap and rotor and wires. I will also get me a junker TFI. I didnt have the right socket so I was unable to get one this time.
$75.00 for a distributor is not too bad. They run around $30.00 here from pick u parts. Will the one from the chevy sixer just bolt on without mods? if it does then do it. my 79 nova had the sixer with HEI and even tho the engine was sooo tired and worn it still purred and started right up, blue smokescreen and all.
I saw a few chevy sixes there but I didnt check if it was the HEI models.
There were two Amc cars there with 258 sixes but i was short on time.
FYI my dad had a postal jeep once and it had the 258. It ran like cr*p till i found a Offenhouser intake and a small holley 4bbl. Got it for him for Xmas and it was sweet. Right hand drive, how funky...

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1979 WAGONEER, 360, TH400, Q- TRAC. 3" ADD A LEAFS, 31" MUD T/A'S (PEP BOYS CLONES).
" Go farther, it only breaks on the street"

[This message has been edited by RudyC (edited November 25, 2000).]

[matthew]

Hi yall, I just did the TFI conversion tonight and she fired right up, have not had a chance to test drive yet. The real test will be in the morning, cooollldd start!! I do have one question, with the TFI coil do i need a resistor or anthing? I just pluged it right into the old coils wires minus that little canister that was pluged into the negitive terminal?
Matt


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84 GW
All Stock.

[Ralph]

If you have a 12 volt coil, you don't need a ballast resistor. Most aftermarket coils such as MSD will be 12 volt. A ballast resistor simply reduces voltage to the coil after cranking the engine, since most OEM coils are actually 6 or 9 volt.

[reddog]

There was some disussion about the TFI coil hookup before. I hooked mine up directly to the existing coil wires and it works fine - 12+ volts at the coil. The little "can" on the factory coil is to help quiet radio noise. Mine is off now but I plan to reattach it to the TFI.

[Ralph]

Sorry to contradict you, reddog, but the "little can" is a ballast resistor for the ignition coil, not an RFI resistor to benefit the stereo system.

RFI resistors are generally unnecessary in carbureted vehicles without engine management computers. As well, if you have a multi-amp stereo system radio noise can often be solved by properly grounding all components to a single grounding point. The only vehicle I ever needed to use an RFI resistor on was a '74 Corvette in which I installed 3 amps, and I think most of the difficulty there was the fact that the fiberglass body simply didn't distribute the chassis' electrical grounding very well.

[DerJeep]

If reddog is referring to the cylindrical object attached to the coil bracket, that has one lead connecting to the + side of the coil, he is correct. This is the "Radio Interference Condenser" as depicted in the 1979 TSM SSI System Schematic.

My lead broke at the condenser and ended up dangling near a ground source. My engine would seem to quit and then upon hitting a bump, fire up and blow all the unburned gas out the tailpipe with a bang. Also AM and CB reception stunk until I replaced it.

[reddog]

No problem Ralph. This can is listed as a "noise suppressor" on the 84 wiring schematic. It is wired from the positive coil lead to ground through the case. The ballast resistor would have the current for the coil flow through it into the coil.

Does the duraspark ignition have a ballast in the wiring harness? If they do then how come my 87 shows 12 volts at the coil all the time, not just while cranking the engine?? It looks like there is one shown in the 84 schematic I have. It shows as a zig-zag line. I believe that a zig-zag line is a resistor in the world of wiring isn't it?? My father was an electrical engineer and I have trouble reading a schematic - guess those genes skip every other generation.

I wondered if my 87 Wag had a ballast resistor in the coil circuit when I did the TFI thing but it shows 12 volts (+) at the coil all the time. Although someone wired a ballast resistor into the choke heater circuit. Anybody else have that?? I know it doesn't get too cold here in So. Cal. but even with the resistor in the choke circuit the choke comes off within about 30 seconds after a cold start up, and I even turned the choke "up" when I rebuilt the carb.

Rambling as Usual...

Kerry

[This message has been edited by reddog (edited November 26, 2000).]

[lanierboy]

On my 87, the wire to the coil is a resistive wire so, if you use the same wire to feed your tfi coil, it will be a resistive load. Unlike a ballast resistor, the resistive wire spreads the resistance (and heat) over the entire length of the wire. I understand that you should maintain this resistance when doing the TFI upgrade. I originally didn't connect the noise supression capacitor (little cylinder thing) but when I connected it later, I had a noticeable reduction in noise on the AM stations. Noise resonates from the ignition and the alternator. Other possible causes are poor grounding at the radio and a non-grounded hood. Putting noise suppression on a source like the iginition coil often help reduce the RFI source.

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1987 GW "Christine"
AMC360 / NP229 / TF727
Holley Projection 2bbl
TFI Ignition upgrade
Skyjacker 4" lift

[Ralph]

What I really like about this forum is that you can always learn from the others. I looked at my coil, and it specifies "for use with external ballast resistor." Hmm...

[jod man]

Can anyone tell me where the old wires going to the old didtributor are supposed to go. They are on some kind of harness I think (do not have truck here at home). It says in the write up that I need an ignition hot for the HEI. Is this one of these wires and the other a tack wire? I feel real stupid asking this when I do not even have my truck here. Thanks guys er people (have to be pollitically correct y'now)

I just looked at a few more sites, got the info I needed. Thanks


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'83 J-10
Sportside Honcho
258-4 speed
totally stock (for now)

[This message has been edited by jod man (edited November 26, 2000).]

[coolram]

Thought I'd add my .02 to this.I changed out my coil right after I bought my GW.Used an Accel Super Stock coil(p#8140).She still had the original AMC coil on her,not bad for 13 years and just under 100,000 miles,this made a difference all by itself.Anyhow did some research after reading all the posts on this.Looked at using MSD cap-adapt(p#8414 Summit $25.50).Did a little more searching and found the cap adaptor at Autozone(Wells p#F958 $5.99,uses clips to retain it to distributor body like we need),distributor cap&rotor(Conrad p#F2103G $15.99,same quality and brass contacts as MSD),MSD 8.5 wires-Iv'e had excellent service form these wire sets on several different vehicles(p#31349 Summit $72.95,for a 460,waiting on these to come in),and Bosch platinum plugs,used these since they first come out(p#4237 or WR9LP)will gap at .040 to start.Just thought I'd post some additional part numbers for anyone looking to do this very easy upgrade. smile.gif