FSJ Dana 44 - SOA (spring over axle) Steering Solutions

[Tad]

FSJ Dana 44 - SOA (spring over axle) Steering Solutions

I’m making this post because we seem to be asked the same question on a reasonably regular basis. It will be a sticky for a bit, then it will get archived.

The topic is pretty clear, Dana 44 - SOA Steering Solutions:
It’s that simple, but I am going to impose a few conditions which I feel are simple, efficient and will help members find needed information faster.

Pictures:
Pictures are mandatory.
I would think uploading them here and using them as attachments would be fine, off site hosting is fine also, please keep the image size reasonable (someplace about 500 pixels wide) and keep backup copies.

Format:
I’d like it to be clean and simple.
Example
Rig and Axle Type:
(wag, chero, JTruck, NT or WT if applicable, swapped axle, D44 or 10-Bolt, let’s leave the D60’s for another post)
Type:
(cross-over or full high-steering, bent drag link, etc.)
Vendor:
(list as much contact information as possible, name, phone, links, email, etc)
Parts Used:
(list only the parts needed for the steering here)
Price:
(try and break it down by pieces if you can please)
Procedure:
(try to list the order in which you did things along with any special tools required)
Other:
(this is where you should list other items you used or had to modify- brake lines, perches, drive shafts, cross members, shocks, how you dealt with leveling the rear, etc)

Comments:
Please feel free to add comments about drivability, ease of installation, etc.
Do not add comments about other folks rigs, parts, prices, etc. This post is meant to be informative, not declarative. Folks can use their own common sense to make their own decisions about those things.

Vendors:
I think it would be nice if vendors wanted to post their products or services here, please invite them if you can, but it must be kept to the topic, nothing else.

Suggestions/Misc:
For this post that is, I'm open to them, but I think it's pretty clear above.
Some folks are going to want to post "see my link here", try it, I'll look through it, there are some really great sites out there. I would lke it to be detailed enough so that members can make an informed decision.
Anything OT at all gets deleted.

Thanks,

EDIT:
Please note I am editing this as we progress to keep the content related to steering.

LINKS TO VENDORS:
http://www.bjsoffroad.com/CartGenie/prod-883.htm (WA)
http://www.bluetorchfab.com/ (Dothan, AL)
http://www.partsmike.com/ (Auburn, CA)
http://completeoffroad.com/ (??, IA)
http://www.wfoconcepts.com/index.html (Auburn, CA)
http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/ (Springfield, OR)
http://www.rockstomper.com/ (Firestone, CO)
http://bullgearinc.com/ (Locust, NC)
http://www.extremegearoffroad.com/ (Orangevale, CA)
http://home.foothilloffroad.com/home.jsp (Auburn, CA)
http://www.dedenbear.com/TXToffroad.htm (Pleasant Hill, CA)
http://www.jeeperz-creeperz.com/ (Wyandotte, MI)
http://www.spydercustoms.com/ (Sheridan, CO)
http://www.the-jeep-guy.com/ (Portland, OR)
http://www.tellico4x4.com/ (Killen, AL)
http://www.sams4x4store.com/ (Tulsa, OK)
http://www.kozoffroad.com/index.html (Midland, MI)
http://www.harshterrain.com/ (Colorado Springs, CO)
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/index.html (Tucson, AZ)
http://www.jnutter.com/ (Ramsey, MN)

Note 1:
That is just a list above, it's just there to save some search time.
Some of these vendors offer products made by others, I tried to narrow it down but I'm sure I missed a few. If you think I should add someone, please let me know.
Neither myself or IFSJA is offering any endorsment of products or specific vendors. You should contact the vendor and fully discuss what your intentions are.

Note 2:
These are dead links that have been removed from the above list. If you find a valid link for these companies, or anyone you think should be added, please let me know via PM.
http://www.redrock4x4.com/ (West Jordan, UT)
http://www.cranecommerce.com/catalog/index.php (Wheat Ridge, CO)

Thanks,
Tad

[Dmntxn77]

**This is a copy and paste from my post back in May 05, I will post more details as I dig them up**


I finally installed my high steer setup. I got my stuff from a guy that I found on ebay. He has a shop in Colorado, and will customize almost any setup that you want. After several converstions with him, I found out that he often makes arms and spacers for Parts Mike.

What I got for only $340 including shipping:
2 machined flat top knuckles
2 one inch spacers
1 3/4" regular arm with 1 TRE hole
1 3/4" long arm with 2 TRE holes
2 sets of studs, cones, and washers

** Edit to clear up a few questions that I have received **

1) No, that is not the proper nut installed on the TRE's. I reused my old TRE's when I did this mod, and when I removed them, I stripped out the nuts. At the time of the pic, I had not replaced them with the proper castle nut. Although, I did drive on and off-road the way it is in the pics, and checked for proper torque almost daily, and it never backed off. However, I DO NOT recomend doing yours this way, because it IS NOT the proper hardware.

2) Yes, my cone washers are properly torqued. I do not know why they stick up higher than others. The are installed properly, and I never found any play in my arms, nor did the nuts ever back-off the washer.

3) No, I do not think that my temporary fix on the tie-rod is dangerous. I cut out 3"s, then I sliced a section of .25 wall tube (IIRC) lengthwise. I then placed the tube halfs on each side of the tie rod and clamped it tight. Next, I laid a weld bead all the way down the seam on each side of the tube, bonding it to the tie-rod. I then wraped a bead all the way around each end of the tube. This tie-rod held up to numerous off-road trips, and several hundered miles on road, and it never developed any cracks or showed any signs of failure. It was never intended as a permant fix, but it held up so well that I put my custom tie-rod/draglink plans on long term hold...

*** *** *** *** *** *** ***

Here is how it looks. You can see the wheel clearance issues that I had before with 3.75" backspacing. It did not rub, but it was really close.
Well, after looking at the pics, I guess you cant tell how close it was, or is, for that matter, you will just have to trust me smile.gif The lower arm on the knuckle is half way inside the wheel.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/dmntxn77/79%20Chief/72409362_ORIG.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/dmntxn77/79%20Chief/72409360_ORIG.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/dmntxn77/79%20Chief/72409357_ORIG.jpg

I kept my DPA and it gives me great DR to TR angle. My TR ended up being 3"s too long, so I had to cut and collar it to fit. Someday I plan to get a custom TR and DR, but havent decided yet. The same guy I bought the rest of the stuff from said he will only charge me about $150 including shipping for both arms.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/dmntxn77/79%20Chief/72409356_ORIG.jpg

A couple more things to add:

Yes, he will do the 10 degree correction for an addition $10 per arm, but I opted to go without because, (1) I am cheap, (2) I have never heard of anyone having problems without it. Some of my pics wont download, but you guys get the idea...

Yes, he has 1" arms. They are the same price as the 3/4" long/short arm combo. But, he does not have long 1" arms.

And... I know you all love my "Y" pipe fix ;) Can you say REDNECK :D

Here is the info for my parts guy:

Ask for Paul at:
Rocky Mountain Machine
(719)578-5805

[fulsizjeep]

Will the flat top knuckles fit on my axel without mods? I am considering using them in the repairs as well just in case I ever decide to go SOA with this rig.

[Tad]

...Will the flat top knuckles fit on my axel without mods? I am considering using them in the repairs as well just in case I ever decide to go SOA with this rig.
Yes, that's where the later FSJ SOA rigs get their flat tops from, (also GM 44's from about the same era).

[fulsizjeep]

I have access to a 82 J10 D44. If I find a set of HD44 hubs and calipers from a J20 donor or something, will these flat tops also fit that set up or do I need the knuckles that go with the HD44 hubs and calipers?

[Tad]

...I have access to a 82 J10 D44. If I find a set of HD44 hubs and calipers from a J20 donor or something, will these flat tops also fit that set up or do I need the knuckles that go with the HD44 hubs and calipers?
Yes they will fit just fine.
Save the flat tops for the wider 8-lug setup, build it on the side as time and $$ permit, slap it under there SOA with a 14-Bolt for the rear when you are ready.
:)

[rustywagoneers_com]

I will post up a few pics and comments regarding sky's 'low' arms on a GM 44 when i can be home for an evening. (that hasn't happened in a while) but i was avoiding posting without doing the whole deal...

so, now i am just so you know that there is interest, and that input is on the way.

peace
Dave

[Casey]

The axles under my Cherokee came from my 1974 J-10. From the factory with open knuckles and drum brakes up front. When I decided to use them I also decided to swap in the later FSJ disc brakes. Then came the decision to do the SOA.
After doing some research and with some help from Tad (and reading lots of threads by RJ44, Scotty and others) I gave Parts Mike a call. On his website he points out the difference in the flat top knuckles in regards to drum or disc brakes. This concerned me a bit so I purchased a set of disc brake flat top knuckles from jeepguyp that he had listed in the for sale section.
I looked at the pics on PMP's website and clearly the drum brake knuckle shown is not like the ones on my '74 J-10 front. I did however notice that the spindle bolts were clocked differently. The drum knuckle was off a bit from the disc knuckle. After some bolting together and fitting I decided to use the knuckles on my axle and make the discs work. Which they did. The caliper is rotated down closer to the centerline of the axle, but not too far to make bleeding a problem.
I sent the knuckles to California in a USPS flat rate box.
I waited about two weeks (Mike was at SEMA) and I paid PMP $550(including shipping).

http://www.partsmikeparts.com/index.htm

Here is what I got.
Mill, drill and tap of two knuckles
2 steering arms with correction
2 1" spacers (they go between the knuckle and arms to provide clearance over the leaf springs)
1 steering arm stud kit installed, w/6 studs, conical washers, and nuts (be sure to get the 1" longer studs for the spacers)
4 ball joints installed
1 spindle stud kit, w/12 studs installed
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/FSJ/highsteerpartspmp.jpg
After I bolted it on I still had to get the draglink dealt with. It was now too long. The only n/t draglink I had at the time was bent so I took mine to a local shop, Chris Durham Motorsports, he cut and rethreaded my stock draglink for $45.
The after...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/FSJ/highsteerdone.jpg
I am still in need of an upgrade in the form of a new heavy duty tierod/ draglink. My stock pieces are up and out of the way but not tough enough for an aired down 37" Swamper against a rock. I bent the last set up running a 34" LTB. :banghead:

All total I have $660 in my high steer, when I include the price of the knuckles I bought but did not use.

IMHO it was well worth the $$$ and effort to have that stuff tucked up there out of harms way.

I probably jinxed myself with that comment

[fulsizjeep]

Nice Casey. Thanks! I like this thread!

So now that I have a little attention here, I have never done ball joints on one of these. I have them set aside at NAPA for Friday pickup.

2 questions:
Do I need anything beside a vice and hammer to get them out?
Do they need to be pressed in or can I do this myself?

[chr1s]

Do they need to be pressed in or can I do this myself?

both!
http://12.29.16.230/mmimages/jeepdocs/dana44balljoints.pdf

posted on FSJN a ways back

[fulsizjeep]

both!
http://12.29.16.230/mmimages/jeepdocs/dana44balljoints.pdf

posted on FSJN a ways back

Thank You! :thumbsup:
I guess I haven't been over the FSJN for a while... :o

edit: WOW! That tool is pricey!!!! I am renting one from Autozone. They are good for something I reckon...

[Tad]

Pictures:
Front
http://members.cox.net/ttsfabworks/SOAPost/01front.JPG
Right Knuckle and Spacer
http://members.cox.net/ttsfabworks/SOAPost/02leftarmandspacer.JPG
Left Knuckle
http://members.cox.net/ttsfabworks/SOAPost/03rightarmnospacer.JPG
4" Drop Pitman Arm
http://members.cox.net/ttsfabworks/SOAPost/04dpa.JPG
Stock Length Studs
http://members.cox.net/ttsfabworks/SOAPost/05stocklenghtstuds.JPG
Reamer for Drop Pitman Arm
http://members.cox.net/ttsfabworks/SOAPost/06reamer4DPA.JPG

Rig and Axle Type:
1970 Wagoneer, HD44 from late '70's J20

Type:
Full High Steering - No Assist

Vendor(s):
Part Mike Parts - DPA was a parts trade, possibly from BJ's OffRoad
http://www.partsmikeparts.com
http://www.bjsoffroad.com

Parts Used:
Parts Mike:
PM1001K - SUPER ARM KIT WITH CORRECTION (2 ARMS with mounting hardware).
Parts Mike:
Custom tie rod and draglink with 7/8-18 TREs, nuts and 1.125" x .188" wall DOM tube.
BJ's OffRoad:
4" Drop Pitman Arm
BJ's OffRoad;
Stainless Brake Lines, 8-10"

Price:
Super arms and Hardware = $259.00
Tie Rod Ends, Tie Rod and Drag link = $259.00
Drop Pitman Arm = $75.00
Brake Lines = $110.00
Flat Top Mill, drill and Tap = $60 (machinist in PHX, no longer exists)
Total = $753.00 (some shipping charges also but not much)

Procedure:
Knuckles were done first, studs installed, arms installed, then cones and nuts torqued to spec (110 ft/lbs). Axle reinstalled, then tie rod installed and adjusted to match toe in of the original tie rod.

Other:
The reamer pictured above was used to taper the DPA to match the larger tie rod ends, if you do this, be patient and go slow, it will chatter.
This entire axle was gone through with the exception of the gears, so there were many other items purchased (bearings, seals, axle joints, rotors, spindle studs, Warn hubs, etc.)
Brakes did work marginally with the original booster and master cylinder, I upgraded to a disc brake MC from a mid 80's Chevy van (had to trim the rod), they are fine, I did not swap out the booster or proportioning valve, hydroboost is on my to-do list.
I did require a 1/4" spacer between the left arm and the knuckle, the issue was that the tie rod jam nut would just hit the spring, I was able to retain the stock length studs.

Comments:
When I started collection parts (3+ years ago) there were not many vendors or options then, search carefully. Prices are lower now and there are many other vendors to choose from.

Suggestions/Misc:
If you do this SOA/Axle Swap on an older FSJ (drum brake, D27 or D30 rig) I suggest you read this 1970 Wagoneer - It's Time (http://www.fsjnetwork.com/fsjn/viewtopic.php?t=1979) it will get you prepped for potential issues.

[Kenall]

Tad
Why does it always look like the steer arms put the tie rod closer to the dif tubes than the OE holes in the knuckles?:confused:

[Dmntxn77]

Tad
Why does it always look like the steer arms put the tie rod closer to the dif tubes than the OE holes in the knuckles?:confused:

It is just the angle of the pic... The new arms are angled in so they will clear the wheels, and the factory arms are straight. So, unless a photo is taken directly above or below the arms, the camera plays tricks...

[Heep80]

I will stand by watching this topic. since i have been accepted to nursing school.. and have to sell my toyota.. might start tricking out my j truck even more now.

[Heep80]

i will watch this topic now, since i have to sell my toyota and have been accepted to the nursing program.. what better way to trick out my J truck.

[Casey]

It is just the angle of the pic... The new arms are angled in so they will clear the wheels, and the factory arms are straight. So, unless a photo is taken directly above or below the arms, the camera plays tricks...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/fsjjunk008.jpg

[Dmntxn77]

Well, I guess I stand corrected... I guess some arm ARE shorter.. Mine were not. Personally, I would not want shorter arms, it seems as though they would put more stress on the steering box due to the loss of mechanical advantage.

[malodin]

if you would like me to move this to a seperat topic i will

Hi guys, i love the information but have a few questions.

1. ive got a 1977 hdd44 from a chevy k20. I do not know the names of the parts very well so bare with me. its got a crescent shaped thing that bolts to the steering nuckle that the steering box ties to via a rod about 1 foot maybe 1.5ft. and only one side of the axle is flat top (the one with the crescent shaped thing)

what i need to know is how to efficiently and cheaply install it into my jeep. i want to swap the whole axle that way i am soa. however i cannot afford the cost of those high steer arms and all that. is there a way that i can use a combination of the stuff i got on my fsj and the chevy to make it work right?

any help would be appreciated as im dead in the water and cannot afford the high steer setup.
alex

p.s. on the plus side i got the 14ff in with only minimal stretching of the leaf springs it looks good under there.

soon it will be 401/th400/d300 14ff and hd44 front

[Crazy_Jeepman]

No you will not be able to use that "crescent shaped thing" (Steering arm) Chevy steering box being on the outside of the frame is able to utilize that by running a drag link straight back to that, but FSJ's with the steering box inside the frame can't. Best think you can do is remove the steering arm. Then have the pass knuckle machined for 1 steering arm and then have a drag link made to run from your pitman arm to the new steering arm, Leave the Chevy center link in the original steering arm position, this would be called Cross Over Steering. When you feel you want to go to full high steer you just buy another steering arm and it will bolt up to the already studded drivers side knuckle, then all you would need is a custom center link and have your drag link shortened.

[malodin]

lol, crazy, that just confused me a little more, any chance you have some pictures of the different links your talking about? i think what your saying is, the dpa connects to the passenger side "flat top"(which is on my jeep but not my chevy 44) and then use the stock chevy arm going from both fronts of the nuckles? what is needed to mill the top of the arm? ive got a machine lathe and a 3way axis mill at work(if i knew what to do i could do it at work).

[Crazy_Jeepman]

LOL I knew I was going to confuse that all up! LOL :o

Here is a pic of what I am talking about on the front of a Chevy

http://www.shakerbuilt.com/parts.html

[malodin]

would i be able to use the jeeps stock rod(cross over part) or would i have to get a new rod as well to go from the dpa to the nuckle

[Crazy_Jeepman]

would i be able to use the jeeps stock rod(cross over part) or would i have to get a new rod as well to go from the dpa to the nuckle

Nope you would need a custom drag link (From Pitman Arm to new steering arm location) However you will be able to use the Chevy stock center link (wheel to wheel link)

[malodin]

ok that makes sense, so no matter what im gonna have to speen at least 150 to get it going, any threads or any info you have on making a drag link? i.e. what i would need to do it? ive got all the tools i think to create the draglink mill the flat top nuckles etc.

also whats up with the 10degree correction thing?

[lifenajeep]

Man, I just built two systems the other day for this exact set-up. I am shipping one out on Tuesday but I will get some shots of the other before and after it gets installed. I am using 1.5"x.250 DOM with 7/8" hiems rated at 50000lbs. The kits are going on a CJ and a YJ that have converted to FSJ NT D44s but are still using the stock spring mounts on the axle. There will be a draglink length difference but that's about it. These are not a high steer set-up but do increase the strength of the steering considerabley. Pictures, I know. soon come

[malodin]

lifenajeep, that would be cool i would love to see some pictures.

[AlsChopShop]

can we get some breakdowns on crossover steering solutions?

i'm back in the SOA game and i don't have that kind of cash for full hi-steer, i'll settle for x-over.

what are the cost break downs on just going crossover? just trying to get a parts list going as i start scrounging for cheap parts.

Al

[Twozerofour]

Is it possible to run a soa, with out a cross over or high steer. or are there clearnce issues with the leaves and steering links. I am aware of bump steer issues ect. with ghetto steering set ups. 81waggy.

[malodin]

twozerofour, i believe it is possible only to say move it out of the garage and around the corner, but definately not safe or plausible to drive on the road, as the angles the arms would be at would be so great that either you would have no turning radius or it would be extrememely squirly and quick steering(dont quote me on that though as i have not done my soa yet)

[AlsChopShop]

Is it possible to run a soa, with out a cross over or high steer. or are there clearnce issues with the leaves and steering links. I am aware of bump steer issues ect. with ghetto steering set ups. 81waggy. from what i've read, even with a 6" DPA the drag link will hit the spring on right turns.

Al

[Dmntxn77]

You will hit the spring. However, I did run mine for quite a while with only a 4" DPA. It still hit the spring, but it worked. I did not even have that bad bumpsteer. I would just save up for the high steer if I were you though

[rockingon24_7]

my 74 j-10 is sitting on axles from a 88 dodge ram (dana 44s) with a crossover steering that cost me under $50
STEERING ARM---first i took a 1x2 bar stock and notched it (you can see in the picture) then I drilled the 3 bolt holes the size of the tap hole then I clamped the arm to the knuckle and drilled the holes on through. Unclamped the arm tapped out the holes in the knuckle by hand (I think it was a 9/16-18 tap) then i drilled out the holes bigger in the arm to 9/16 so the bolts would fit through. Next i made the 1inch spacer out of another piece of stock and notched/drilled it to match.
DRAGLINK---the drag link is a modified stock draglink from my j-10. From the adjuster to the steering box is stock. I got another drag from the junkyard and cut the threads off and had it machined to have the threads go in the oppisite direction(so it could screw into the adjuster where the end used to go)Then but welded a tractor 3pt hitch hiem joint to it and then sleeved that and bolted it in place.
I THINK thats all I did and it seems to work fine but maybe I got lucky. There has not been any slack in the joints nor bolts that backed off.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t194/rockingon24_7/jeep/IMG_2077.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t194/rockingon24_7/IMG_2075.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t194/rockingon24_7/IMG_2076.jpg

[LaJ10]

I thought I saw somewhere a diagram of what needs to be milled drilled and taped on a pass. side knuckle somewhere but cant find it anywhere now has anyone else seen it?

[malodin]

http://web.acsalaska.net/~cvandor/wilhelm/flattop.html

try this page, hes very open and answers questions. best page ive found so far.

[LaJ10]

That got me where iwas trying to go.Thanks

[malodin]

id like to keep this going, see some more pictures of peoples steering setup, im in the process of milling/drilling/tapping my nuckles(and yes i will be able to do it on a regular basis for people here in a few months) and then i will be making some highsteer arms and would like to know more info.

[Jim Blair]

Rig and Axle Type: '84 J10 with Ford D44 front
Type and Vendor: High steer arms from Ott Industries in British Columbia, Canada (originally I used Off Road Design arms, but they allowed the tierods to hit the leafs)
Parts Used: Stock tierods and ceneterlink from the Ford and draglink from the J10
Price: Bought in '02 and not sure how much anymore
Procedure: If you run a Chev or Dodge axle from the '70s, toss the boomerang from the LH knuckle (and duck!) then have the other knuckle planed and drilled mirror image (if it's flat top) The arms bolt directly to the knuckles and the Ford centerlink bolted to the arms. The J10 draglink bolted to the centerlink with the stock Jeep RH tierod.

I have http://ottindustries.com arms on my drilled J20 flat tops (on a Ford D44 open knuckle front axle from a '76 F350 highboy crewcab so I have LH drop front axle and it bolted directly in) with all (otherwise) stock steering components. The Swaybar plates became my shock mounts and with new Ubolts, the nuts face upwards, so no dragging (doing the same to my '73 J4000 with a '76 J20 front axle swapped in when I get time)
I put new centering studs in, but I could have just rounded off the old one's nut and shortened the threads to fit in the centering holes.
The brakelines are extended ones for a '77 Blazer K20 and brakes (knuckles and calipers) are from a '76 J20.

My truck recently (with 4.0L under the hood)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/black%20jack/blackjack.jpg

OTT arms
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/black%20jack/DSC01132.jpg

Spring bolts inverted
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/black%20jack/F350D44.jpg

Side view of OTT arms showing clearance from springs
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/black%20jack/highsteer1.jpg

[malodin]

Jim, thanks thats helfpull as well, im working on building my own arms out of 1 3/4"x1 3/4 solid (something steel i imagine) and doing a step up similar to the ott design.

[malodin]

here it is, my first milled drilled tapped knuckles ready to bolt onto my friends rig, pretty soon i will be making my own arms as well(these are koz offroad arms)

http://www.filehive.com/files/0508/0508072129.jpg (http://www.filehive.com/files/0508/0508072129.jpg)

http://www.filehive.com/files/0508/0508071931.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0508/0508071931a.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0508/0508071932.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0508/0508071851a.jpg
this last pic shows the difference between the factory gm 26.5 cone washer and koz offroad cone washer(which is just a tacoma screw product, or used to be it is now discontinued)

personally i dont see the need for the bigger conewasher the way these are bolted down and all, unless maybe someone is running 44's with hydraulic ram steering etc.... this first set of knuckles is going on a f250 with 39 irocks so we will see how they do.

once i get my reamer(either gm taper 26.5 or the tac screw conical washer taper) i will be making steering arms.

[Kimbrough]

Anybody attaching the draglink to the passenger-side steering arm next to the tie-rod? Anything wrong with that setup?

[malodin]

dont know yet, i think the only major thing would be length might be a little short(suppose it mainly depends upon your lift vs highsteer arms

[salamander]

ok i relise that a highster system would be best. However on scouts and samuris in the old days we used Z link. Wich dose have down sides bump stere you half to build it. I have run this it dose work for a while and alow you to use your rig while you save up for high stere. Just a thought.



yes this is old school
yes it was the only way back in the day
yes there are better ways now
but it works

PS my POS will have one to get it going till i collect all my high stere parts





http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/images/suzuki/z-link_small.jpg

[Tad]

Anybody attaching the draglink to the passenger-side steering arm next to the tie-rod? Anything wrong with that setup?

Not me personally but there are a few pic's like that in the BillaVista steering research pages over on Pirate.
As long as nothing binds and turning effort/radius remain about the same i'm thinking it's not a big deal.

[Doug3651]

I've been doing a lot of research on the SOA lift and I think I have all the items covered, but then I came across this exerpt from the CFSJA.org lift kit artical.


Then, to correct caster, which enables you to steer properly and causes the
wheels to recenter after turns, the steering knuckles must be cut off and
re-welded at the proper angle. This isn't something for a shadetree mechanic
to try. Only a very skilled individual who won't weaken the axles and will
set up the driveline angle properly can pull this off. I'd expect to pay at
least $1000 for this job. You might also need to look at high clearance
steering kits to avoid hanging up your tie rods on every rock. This isn't a
DIY as a mistake can, of course, be deadly. You'll need a mechanical engineer
for the design and a machinist for the implementation to do this right.
That's why it'd be better to buy a kit. There, you've been warned.

This is the first I have heard of this?? Can I get a bit of input on this from you SOA guru's?

Thanks!

[Tad]

...Can I get a bit of input on this from you SOA guru's?

Thanks!
Yes, you can.
It's wrong as far as it applies to our FSJ's as long as you mount the SOA perches in the same orientation to the original perches.

I'm not tooting my stuff here, but unless you rotate the pinion up, you did not change anything. Nothing, Nada, No Place, No How.

With all due respect, I have asked several times to have that portion of the CFSJA writeup edited for accuracy, that portion is just BS.
I doubt the author has ever performed an SOA himself or drives a SOA FSJ rig.

I drive one (a SOA FSJ rig) almost daily, I drive one on the interstate at 65-75 mph, some times for 200 miles at a shot.

(yes, I know who the author is, he's a mod here and a good friend of friends of mine, but I still think it's a bunch of second hand compiled bull ****).

[Kimbrough]

This is the first I have heard of this?? Can I get a bit of input on this from you SOA guru's?

Thanks!
They don't call it the Off-Road FSJ Tech forum for nothing.

[Doug3651]

Thanks Tad!

I was gettin a bit worried about doin my SOA. You have revitalized my motivation!!!

[Kimbrough]

I have a stupid question: Is the drag link supposed to mounted in front of the tie rod? If I try to mount on the rear hole, it crosses the tie rod. Sooo; DRAG LINK connects to forward hole on pass-side - TIE ROD connects to the rearward hole on pass-side. TIE ROD connects to where on driver's-side? Forward or rear hole???

[j20brett]

tierod connects to rear hole, draglink to front.

Edit: there should be only one hole on drivers side. But if you do have 2, then the rear hole.

[Jeep4myBoys]

Alrighty - this thread is very good - really makes me more confident in being able to do this myself. I was thinking BJs 6" for the ease of installation, but I believe the extra flex from the SOA would be better.

Doesn't look like there's one complete write-up, but all of the information is here. Since I don't have time to pick everything up piece by piece or fabricate parts myself (I just went from working solo to taking over a company with 12 employees :rolleyes: ) I would prefer buying in kits.

So, of course I'm thinking Tads SOA kit and learning to weld (I'll practice lots first, but any concern with a noob welding on an axle?)

For the high steer, I was thinking this kit (http://www.partsmike.com/old/knuckle_kit.htm) from Parts Mike. Would that work in our application? I would probably use the super arm kit.

Parts Mike also has a TRE kit (http://www.partsmike.com/old/tre_kit.htm), would the tie rod still need to be shortened though?

I know this ends up being more expensive, but right now I just don't have the time to do more myself, and I would rather spend the time I have working on the jeep.

Also - since this would end up being much more expensive than the 6" lift, is the extra flex really worth it?

Thanks guys, this thread is very informative!

[j20brett]

I was considering using the same kit form partsmike at first, but i just couldnt see putting that much money since i would be eventually swapping in a d60.

All you need is the pass. side flat top knuckle and one super arm. So this saves you ~$500. Its not highsteer but you dont have to have highsteer. But the tierod end kit would be nice to have.

[Tad]

Timothy,
If you do x-over you will keep your tie rod (you could have a new one made but if yours is in good shape it's not really necessary) intact/same location and just need a slightly longer drag link to connect to the passenger side high-steer arm (get one of the many taller/super arms or get one with the spacer) on a flat top knuckle that has been milled/tapped/with the proper studs/cone washers and nuts, along with a 4" drop pitman arm.
I'm pretty sure both Parts Mike, Bull Gear and more than 1/2 those vendors listed on the first page will fab one up speedy like or sell you the whole package.

[Jeep4myBoys]

I've looked, but I don't see a good overview of the crossover steering. From what I'm gathering, you basically use a driver's high steer with the drag link under the springs? I'm not sure I get it, and I haven't seen one in person.

Anyone have a good,summary of what the crossover steering setup is?

[j20brett]

You dont need the drivers side if you are just doing crossover steering. Only the passenger side flat top knuckle.

here is a pic...top is stock steering. bottom is crossover
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m146/brett6819/steering.jpg
Edit here is a better pic and a page with a good writeup.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Steering/Steering_Research/steeringresearch.htm
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m146/brett6819/nonhysteercrossover.jpg

[Jeep4myBoys]

Thanks, that makes sense.

[Tad]

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/tadsal/ttsfabworks/10MFissel.jpg

I have a better pic of the completed assembly someplace.

[malodin]

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/tadsal/ttsfabworks/10MFissel.jpg

I have a better pic of the completed assembly someplace.

does your spacer on that picture have a taper to it?

[Tad]

does your spacer on that picture have a taper to it?
It does have a taper, but that is not my spacer, arm or knuckle.
That's from a SOA welding road trip up to PHX I did back in March for a member here, SteelPonyCowboy.
IIRC he got the knuckle, spacer and arm from Kozz.

Here's a better pic of cross-over steering from JoshD in PHX.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/tadsal/ttsfabworks/Steering/CrossOver1.jpg

Here's full high-steering.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/tadsal/ttsfabworks/Steering/HiSteering.jpg

[malodin]

cool, i get the material this weekend to cut my own arms now, i am using 2 3/4 wide by a minimum of 1 3/4 thick by 9 1/2" long piece for one arm(then there is no need for spacers) similar to http://www.ottindustries.com/Steering_arms_dana44.html
these ones he he he:)

[Jeep4myBoys]

Here's a better pic of cross-over steering from JoshD in PHX.


Well, I guess I get to see one close up then . . . I bought Josh D's GW and I'm picking it up on Sat :D (I'm thinking of doing the SOA on my 82 Chero, not the GW!)

[Tad]

Well, I guess I get to see one close up then . . . I bought Josh D's GW and I'm picking it up on Sat :D (I'm thinking of doing the SOA on my 82 Chero, not the GW!)
You will have to look at his Wrangler, that's where that setup lies.
NT, WT, does not matter, the concept is the same for all our rigs.

[malodin]

here is my home built steering solution:)

http://www.filehive.com/files/0626/0626072056.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0626/0626071846b.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0626/0626072054.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0626/0626071846a.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0626/0626071846.jpg


think they will hold up?

[uplandhawaii]

Did you cut that out of a solid block? I don't know if I would trust the lock washer and nut set up, but everythig looks solid. Thats one hunk of steel there.

[malodin]

thats not a lock washer it is a factory gm cone washer, yes it was built out of 2"x3" solid(not sure type steel)

[uplandhawaii]

My mistake, one of the pics looked like a lock washer. Is this a set you made? I recall you mentioned you have a mill right?

[malodin]

upland, i can see how it looks like a lock washer, they stick out about the same thickness as one(i coppied the factory gm cone washer depth)(within thousandsths)

yes the mill/drill/tap and the arms are all my own making...

[j20brett]

very nice work there. I dont think you will bend those :cool:

[malodin]

soon, very soon i will have my own mill and metal cutting band saw and will be able to pop the arms off and mill/drill/tap the knuckles.

if anyone needs them mill/drill/tap i can do it now, just takes me a while as i am doing them at work on my off time. next month i should have a set or two pre done and that way you can send me yours and i will swap them out.

pm me for price if you would like.

[j20krawler]

i know you guys are most likely tired of posting about this over and over agian, but... (here comes the question that is most likely posted already) what exactly do i need to purchase for full high steer steering... all these shortened terms for components is kindof confusing for people that have never messed with steering (other than installing a DPA). i have a 4" DPA already but i dont know what i NEED to complete a high steer kit... Please and thank you! :)

[malodin]

so far here is what i have purchased and had on hand.

2 flat top knuckles milled drilled tapped.
2 high steer arms(like the pictures)(made those)
2 4" long stud kits as i did not want to counter bore the arms(lack of proper size counter bore)

then its a matter of figuring out what steering parts you will need.

this is up to you either run heim joints or TIE ROD ENDS(TRE). bassically the connection goes from the DPA down to the passenger side arm outer hole(i think) then you tie both high steer arms together with a rod(hence tie rod) and your set.

i will be running either my stock fsj widetrack tie rod(though i think its bent) or the chevy tie rod i got with the front axle.

[j20krawler]

iam confused about the knuckles... and the arms...and the stud kits, lemme try and use the thing between my ears real quick.... so the knuckles are the things that connect to the axle that let your tires turn.. and the arms are the rods that connect fromt the DPA to the knuckles, and the studs are the machined pieces of metal that raise the whole steering set-up to be over the leaf springs correct???

[uplandhawaii]

Yes the knuckles do as you say. No the arms go on top of the knuckles, the tierod and draglink connect to them and the pitman arm. The studs are used to attatch the arms to the knuckles.

[Tad]

i am confused about the knuckles... and the arms...and the stud kits
It's ok, a boatload of this is confusing until you have it all sitting in front of you.
Let's use Casey's pic from page 1 (with some labels added).

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/tadsal/ttsfabworks/knuckleparts.jpg

Then match it up to it's location here...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/rcasey/FSJ/highsteerdone.jpg

or here...
http://members.cox.net/ttsfabworks/SOAPost/02leftarmandspacer.JPG
http://members.cox.net/ttsfabworks/SOAPost/05stocklenghtstuds.JPG

[malodin]

j20krawler, alot of it is all figure out as you go once you get your knuckles milled and a set of steering arms(those are about the only standard stuff you can grab off the shelf)(even the arms there is so much variety in though)

basically what you have to do is get the knuckles milled/drilled/tapped first thing, install them on your axle, then figure the amount of room between your leafs(if your spring over axle) or if your spring under you would then only need a set of flat steering arms(easy to make) then work out the kinks from there.

[shimniok]

Yes, you can.
It's wrong as far as it applies to our FSJ's as long as you mount the SOA perches in the same orientation to the original perches.

I'm not tooting my stuff here, but unless you rotate the pinion up, you did not change anything. Nothing, Nada, No Place, No How.

With all due respect, I have asked several times to have that portion of the CFSJA writeup edited for accuracy, that portion is just BS.
I doubt the author has ever performed an SOA himself or drives a SOA FSJ rig.

I drive one (a SOA FSJ rig) almost daily, I drive one on the interstate at 65-75 mph, some times for 200 miles at a shot.

(yes, I know who the author is, he's a mod here and a good friend of friends of mine, but I still think it's a bunch of second hand compiled bull ****).

Thanks, I appreciate your feedback (some of it). And yes, it is compiled from various sources. What other choice is there short of personally installing every possible lift combination myself?

Anyway, could you be more specific as to what is bull**** in the article? I'd rather it be accurate but general comments don't help. Maybe I could make it available on ifsja for review/commentary.

The reason the knuckle thing is in there is based on articles I've read in various 4x rags. I could see where the caster angle probably doesn't change if your perches are right, as you've said.

Feel free to email or IM me rather than cluttering up this thread. (I guess I should've pm'ed you. Oops... ) I'll go start a thread now...

Thanks,
Michael

[j20krawler]

the only problem i have now is that.... i dont think i have the correct knuckles, mine look different than the ones in these pictures, i will post a pick of them, my truck is a 79 j20 it has the dana 44 up-front but is it diffrent in that year... ill be sure to update with pics in a sec, (oh and one more thing THANKS FOR THE AWESOME HELP AND QUICK RESPONCE!!!)

got the pics... it looks like mine is different, but is that because you have to get the top completely machined flat??
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/j20krawler/KNUCLE1.jpg

[malodin]

j20 you dont have flat top knuckles as they stopped them in late 79 or early 80(somewhere around there) in which case you will have to find a set in a junk yard or your local c/l you can get these from full size chevy and jeeps(most easily found)

http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/flatop_knucles.html

read up on that then figure out what you need, if you need a set of flat top knuckles pm me im sure i have a set i can mill/drill/tap at a decent price.

[j20krawler]

yea i will get back to you on that, im just getting ready to do the suspension after i take care of other stuff... floor panels, carborator, transfercase chain, gears, interior.... no big deal :banghead:

if only i could figure out how to print me some real money, then i would just put in some aftermarket d60's with full hydrolic steering and a linked suspension... ill tell you guys how to do it when i get the magic money maker machine i saw on Ebay!

[malodin]

here is some pictures of my almost finished setup, i am using the stock fsj drag link and tierod(there is enough adjustment in the sleeve to make up for the chevy axle being 3" wider, as my high steer arms are pointed in a little bit as it is.


http://www.filehive.com/files/0814/0814071201b.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0814/0814071201a.jpg
this next pic is the best shot, look how flat that is, now my budy carl pointed out that under the weight of the body and everything it may end up going up, so i may end up needing a non drop pitman arm.
http://www.filehive.com/files/0814/0814071201.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0814/0814071159.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0814/0814071157b.jpg
http://www.filehive.com/files/0814/0814071157a.jpg

[LYNCHMOB]

I'm getting ready to put a cummins turbo diesel drivetrain in my '82 Cherokee. I'm going to put the D60 axles in my cherokee and at the same time I wanted to do a SOA conversion. Will I need the high steer kit for the D60, and does it take the same knuckle? I'm guessing that it's not the same knuckle as the 44, so what problems will I run into with this conversion? Where can I get the parts, or should I leave it a spring under axle?
Thanks for your help,
Ryan

[malodin]

d60 is different knuckles, they are easier to make high steer arms for than the d44 knuckles.

[Slick Willie]

High steer arms are plentiful for D60's. Many people on this board have D60's, including me, so you can find many steering solution writeups if you take a look around. High steer or crossover are your stock solutions.

[Tad]

I'm getting ready to put a cummins turbo diesel drivetrain in my '82 Cherokee. I'm going to put the D60 axles in my cherokee and at the same time I wanted to do a SOA conversion. Will I need the high steer kit for the D60, and does it take the same knuckle? I'm guessing that it's not the same knuckle as the 44, so what problems will I run into with this conversion? Where can I get the parts, or should I leave it a spring under axle?
Thanks for your help,
Ryan
You have a front D60 that is SUA?
I guess that happened on some rigs, not sure?
What rig did the D60's come from?

[LYNCHMOB]

You have a front D60 that is SUA?
I guess that happened on some rigs, not sure?
What rig did the D60's come from?

No, the D60's are coming out of a '98 dodge diesel 4x4. It has a coil over front suspension and my '82 cherokee has a D44 SUA, so I will have to convert the D60 to SOA or SUA. My cherokee 75% DD and 25% trail rig. I hope to do these mods and raise that trail rig percentage up some, but I want it to be safe for me and my family on the highway. Any input is welcome.
Ryan

[Tad]

Gotcha, I'm just not much up on D60's.
I want it to be safe for me and my family on the highway
Either SOA or SUA can be safe on or off road when setup properly.
This thread dealt primarily with D44 steering, which I find quite safe SOA on the highway, I'm sure a D60 can have the same if not better handling characteristics.
As long as mods are done correctly and with proper planning there's no reason not to have both worlds.

[LYNCHMOB]

While we are on steering solutions, has anyone ever used a rack and pinion setup on there full size jeep? I don't know much about them, but my buddy asked if I had thought about it. Obviously I hadn't.
Thanks,
Ryan

[Mahamotorworks]

I am planning to go SOA on my 77 Wagoneer. I know that I will probaly need to do a High Steer adjustment on it. I just dont know what kit to buy. If I go with just the Arms then I will have to buy new tie rod ends/arms. In the end it will be close to the same price as the kit from BJ's off road that has the tie rod ends and includes a nuckle that has the high steer built it to it. I guess I just need to look everything over. I have the knowledge needed to do this type fo mod.

Is there any one out there that wished that they had just bought the kit instead of trying to peice everything together? Or vise-versa?


Thanks

MAHA

[imiceman44]

While we are on steering solutions, has anyone ever used a rack and pinion setup on there full size jeep? I don't know much about them, but my buddy asked if I had thought about it. Obviously I hadn't.
Thanks,
Ryan

I actually am still trying to figure out how I can make that work.
if you mount it on the axle to get perfect steering, you will need to figure out a collapsable flexible shaft to connect to the steering column so you can still flex it and steer.
with some borgesson ujoints and some kind of slip joint double D or square.
I can figure a setup if I know I can find the parts to do it.

[Tad]

Is there any one out there that wished that they had just bought the kit instead of trying to peice everything together?
Not that I regret going full high-steer but I may take the wag back to cross-over so I can move the front axle forward without tie rod/drag link issues (see post in Off-Road section by Bob Barry).

[malodin]

For me it was far cheaper to go the parts sourcing route, i am into my hi-steer, 30$ for the steel i made the hi steer arms out of. nothing to mill/drill/tap them. i am running the stock cherokee wide track arm's going from the steering box to the knuckles, the one that goes steering box, passenger side tie rod and one big tie rod, even with my hd44 chevy swap i still have enough adjustment in the stock w/t tie rod to adjust my tie rod with plenty. then i just have to take my DPA out and install my stock PA and it will be perfect. oh and 30$ or so for the 4" long stud kit

[Mahamotorworks]

Dose any one have a template for the Pass Side Steering Arm with the 2 holes on the front and spacers? I know some one that can cut them out here I just need to have a correct to scale template.

I am going to run cross over steering with the option to go full high steer.

Tad, Where did you get the shock mounts you are using? I would like more information about them. The one that look like they are welded to the top of the axle tube.

Thanks

MAHA

[malodin]

there is no "diagram" for the actuall arms, all you have to do is take the diagram for the knuckle drilling postition(I think its posted here if not its elsewhere on the net) take that, use the same locating point(center of ball joint hole) and whatever piece of steel you are going to use make it identical from the ball joint hole to the drilled/tapped location and then make it come out the same distance or so as the originall tie rod location(should be around 9" total from back back of material out. If your having someone do it i would strongly recommend not doing 2 seperate pieces of material one for a spacer and one for the arm itself(more stuff to go wrong) instead of one mating surface you have 2. if this guy can make you arms he can do it out of a solid chunk of metal(what ever size you need to clear your leafs) mine was 2x3" square solid steel, i used a metal cutting bandsaw to cut out the shape then milled out the rest.


pm if your interested in having me make some, it wont have the hammer marks, that had to do with my mill/drill/tap screw up on that knuckle.

[Tad]

Time to put this in the archives.
Sorry I have been slacking.