PDA

View Full Version : Engine Pinging Solved!!!


Bob Barry
08-12-2002, 05:19 PM
I cured the debilitating engine knock that contributed to my decision to not travel to Ouray.

The pinging began after I replaced the distributor, but it had some before, especially starting up from a stop after a long highway run.

It would occur whenever I used more than 1/2-throttle, and come on worse as the revs rose. Even with the adjustable timing, backing it down to 0ºBTDC wouldn't completely eliminate it.

The EGR valve was working, and the thermostatic switches that limit its operation were letting it work when it needed to.

The fact that the ping was somewhat tied to engine speed pointed me toward the mechanical advance. I pulled the vacuum advance unit and the magnetic pickup plate, and discovered what was causing my pinging.

The Duraspark distributor, like most units, uses centrifugal weights and two springs to control the mechanical advance. The way it is set up, however, is to use a light spring that is stretched tight and a heavy spring that has some slack in it: the light spring controls the advance until the slack in the heavy spring is taken up, after which the centrifugal weights are working against the heavy spring.

Well, the A1-Cardone distributor I got from Advance Auto had a LOT of slack in that heavy spring, so the light spring was letting a LOT of advance come in before the heavy one slowed things down. The heavy spring was a silver-colored unit, but was lighter than the brown-colored spring usually found in 360 distributors. This was feeding too much advance into the distributor, causing the ping.

I replaced the silver spring with the brown spring from the original distributor, and took out some of the slack by bending the tang one end wrapped around out a little more.

I also figured out how to adjust the vacuum advance. It is adjusted through the vacuum-nipple using a 1/8" allen-wrench, which engages a hex collar just inside the fitting. Turning it clockwise actually *loosens* the spring inside it, which makes the vacuum advance come on sooner. I bottomed it out all the way clockwise, then backed it off two turns counter-clockwise (you can back it off much more, but beyond two turns the spring becomes so stiff that the diaphragm will never move under engine vacuum). I tested it out, and adjusted it to 1.5 turns out, which is still rather conservative, but I want a margin of comfort in the timing curve.

Results: With the adjustments I mentioned above and the initial timing set to 12ºBTDC, I couldn't get it to ping, even lugging the engine and accelerating hard up a long hill in 95ºF weather with the A/C on.

I could probably quicken the advance curve a bit more by putting more slack in the heavy spring or by loosening up the vacuum advance diaphragm spring a bit more, but first I want to make it up Mt. Washington without any pinging.

[ August 16, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Bob Barry ]

beater
08-12-2002, 05:27 PM
way to go

BIG BAD JON
08-12-2002, 05:48 PM
Dude, glad to hear it!

joe
08-12-2002, 11:24 PM
That's great info Bob. You should submit that to Adam (webmaster@ifsja.org) for the tech section of the site. That info's a keeper.
I would have never thought to check the springs on a fresh store bought rebuilt dizzy. I wrongly would have thought those would be brand new and correct. :(

infincool
08-12-2002, 11:42 PM
Good deal. Enjoy Mt Washington. I'll be up there Aug 21-24 enjoying 3 days of hiking the Appalachian Trail including up and over Mt Washington. Oh Yeah and the jeep in your Avatar looks SOOOOO Rugged. Nice Rig.

Jeepzilla
08-13-2002, 01:23 AM
I continue to be amazed at your diagnostic ability! It is a tribute to your experience and patience just to be able to see the "wrong" springs and then know how to compensate for them!

I see your train of thought: pinging means inappropriately advanced spark, plain and simple. What advances spark? Check all systems that advance spark. Home in on distributor, how does distributor advance spark? Check all components that advance spark. BOTH components functioning inappropriately, not broken. Adjust both, problem solved.

I wonder is this kind of thing is the genesis of many of our rants about "junk parts store stuff" or "broken out of the box" stories. Could it be that the Advance part was set up for a generic application, say, a Chevy 350? The parts store computer will tell the no-knowledge counterperson what will "fit", but it up to us to know the limitations therein. My compliments to you, sir!

[ August 13, 2002, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Jeepzilla ]

porkchop
08-13-2002, 03:04 AM
You just solved my problem! I have been have this problem for a while and I was not sure where it was coming from. I am going to mess with it when I get back from Ouray. I may still take the wag though. As always thanks for the knowledge, Man I am sorry you could not go to Ouray :( .

Bob Barry
08-16-2002, 03:45 PM
Well, I'm back from my trip, and I have this to report:

* I did have to turn the vacuum advance back out another 3/8 of a turn, so I'm almost at two turns out. I'm still getting a tad of pinging under light-throttle acceleration, which goes away if I get on it more, so I might just back it out to two turns and see how that works.

* The engine stumbles off the line, in fact, very badly when the engine's anything but warm, but under other conditions as well. It might be my accelerator pump or my choke, but I'm also wondering whether I took out too much slack from that heavy spring. Maybe AMC V-8's need a lot of initial timing boost to get their axles going.

* It is a beautiful thing to have the truck kick-down into second at 55mph when climbing a 13% grade, and power over the crest of the hill, with a solid "thunk" into third gear and no pinging whatsoever on 87 Octane gasoline... smile.gif

Jeepzilla: The springs might be suitable for a Ford application; that is one of the compromises with a "universal" parts-store bought component. Of course, there's no guarantee that the distributors sold through the Mopar dealers wouldn't also have an inappropriate "universal" advance curve. This is one instance where NOS parts really do have a leg up on generic rebuilds.

Boy, though; I really wish I had a distributor recurve machine, to get it how I want it once and for all, rather than tinkering with those tangs and springs on a trial-and-error basis.

infincool
08-17-2002, 12:50 AM
bob I bought the advance springs PN#925D 1955-70 Ford Dist springs. I read this in teh TFI upgrade papers. I haven't put them in yet as the article says t you hafta remove the Dizzy to do it. Is this true? anyone else done this particular piece of the Mod? It says on the package for race vehicles only never to be used on highways. Will it be suitable for road use? I don't go off road often with this truck ( OK I never have actually)

Bob Barry
08-17-2002, 02:09 AM
That is correct; you don't have to remove the distributor to replace the springs. Once you pop the cap off, you will see the rotor, the trigger wheel, the magnetic pickup, and a round plate that would have been called a breaker-plate in a points-distributor (I don't know what it would be called in an electronic distributor).

You first have to remove the trigger wheel. You could use a small puller, or gently pry on opposite ends with two screwdrivers (I use a brake-adjuster on the engine-side because it is bent just right). There is a small roll-pin that slides between grooves on the shaft and the wheel; don't lose it!

Then you remove the vacuum advance by removing the little e-clip attaching its arm to the breaker-plate (don't lose it!), and the two 1/4"-headed screws attaching it to the distributor body.

Then you can remove the philips-head screw next to where the wires enter the distributor housing (it actually grounds the black wire as well), rotate the magnetic pickup, and remove the second philips-head screw holding the plate on.

You may have to back out the 1/4"-headed screw holding the clip that locates the distributor cap, in order to lift the plate out.

Once the plate is out, you'll see the two advance springs and the weights. I used a dental-pick style tool to lift the end of the spring off the inner post, then turn the spring to come off the outer tang.

Installation is the reverse of disassembly. smile.gif

In all honesty, I think the factory advance curve is as aggressive as someone would want for running 87-octane gas. You could go for more advance, if you run 93 octane stuff, but I'm finding the factory curve just about optimized for regular (after all, Jeep did invest a bunch of money in development work to do what we're screwing around with when we change the springs, weights, advance, etc...).

Careful34
08-17-2002, 03:38 AM
Wow! Good find! Thanks for the info. I second that this should go in the tech section.

Sycho15
08-17-2002, 04:48 AM
"One thing you should do with the dist before you put it in is mess with the advance curve a bit. I take em apart and put a little weld in the smaller of the two slots that can be used to limit the advance. I like a lot of initial timing to make the car nice and crisp, so I limit the mechanical advance to 22-24 degrees, and this allows an initial setting of 12-14 degrees for a total around 35 degrees.

The two slots typically in that distributor are 16 and 21 degrees. These are distibutor degrees and must be doubled to get crank (timing) degrees, because the distributor turns at 1/2 crank speed. Use the 16 degree slot and put a little weld to limit this to about 11 (22 crankshaft). Can be measured with a protractor, a little patience, and a vise. Probably some finish filing will be necessary. Then just use two of the factory light springs.

The other way to do this is just use the Mr Gasket Ford advance curve springs. These are a little longer, which leaves them loose, and this eats up some of the advance. This becomes a pain in the hole if you turn the distributor upside down and the springs fall off, requiring taking the distributor apart again. Hence the weld up trick.

The other neat thing about that distributor is the vacuum advance is adjustable. This is achieved with an allan wrench through the hose nipple. The correct wrench will just fit through the opening.

Good luck,
Ken Parkman"

This was from the EZ-Board hosted AMC forum (http://pub8.ezboard.com/bamcforum) . A lot of these guys have race-cars with no vacuum advance used, so take their timing measurements with a grain of salt.