NV4500 update

[BRUTUS]

As many of you read and responded to a while back... I was on the trail of the elusive NV and was all ready to pay $700 for it after talking the guy down from $800 (thread: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=49845&highlight=nv4500) . He ended up selling it from under me but I figured the karma police would reward me and get him. I WAS RIGHT!!!! I wish I would have known how right at the time...

I just called a guy who posted on denver craigslist about an NV4500 (without posting a price). I was really concerned with the condition it was in at the time because he didn't post anything about the condition. [sorry, I am having enough problem breathing more less typing right now]

He just told me that it was out of a friends tow truck (totaled with estimated 40K miles) that he was going to put in his Willys wagon. He has since had back surgery and can't complete the project. When I asked him how much he wanted... he told me $350 for the NV4500 or $500 with the D300 t-case!

I told him... will you take a deposit?

[Micah Ross]

Thats awesome. So are you getting the 300 also? I am not a huge fan of the 300 but that tranny will be awesome.

[BRUTUS]

No I don't have the extra cash for the 300. I already have my chevy 205 ($150) and 203 ($50) in my posession and I don't want to try to re-sell it.

[Micah Ross]

Thats cool. I wish I had the money to put a manual tranny into mine but I am stuck rebuilding the 727 in mine now and saving money for the swap at a later date.

[BRUTUS]

I love manual trannys! Especially with a hand throttle. BEST MOD I have ever done!

[Micah Ross]

Yeah my Tj had a manual and I think for the kind of offroading I do it would be best.

[rustywagoneers_com]

that is a killer deal...

officially jealous...

peace
Dave

[Brad W.]

you suck, you suck, you suck!

nice snag man, ain't Karma a helluva thing?

[BRUTUS]

you suck, you suck, you suck!

nice snag man, ain't Karma a helluva thing?

KARMA FRIGGIN ROCKS! My heartrate is still way up over this!

[seamus]

Sorry to hi jack but... does the nv4500 bolt together or do you need an adapter / shaft change.

Thanks

Seamus

[seamus]

Sorry to hi jack but... does the nv4500 bolt together or do you need an adapter / shaft change.
Bolt to the np 205 I meant to say.

[caionneach]

Sorry to hi jack but... does the nv4500 bolt together or do you need an adapter / shaft change.
Bolt to the np 205 I meant to say.

It depends on which version of NV4500 you have and which NP205.

I snagged a Ford Np205 thinking it was just what I needed to upgrade from my NP208 in my Cherokee. Wrong. The Ford NP205 has driver's side drop, which is what I need, but my NV4500 will have a 23 spline output shaft, and the Ford NP205 has a 32 spline female input. You can't switchout the input shaft in the xfer case for a smaller input apparently; the transmission output shaft has to be changed. Otherwise, Advance Adapters makes a kit that is not cheap ($600+) for the Dodge 29 spline NP205. Moral of story: make sure output shaft and input shaft either match or can be adapted economically.

[BRUTUS]

I am sure I will have to do something special to the NP203 input to make it work. I already know I have to buy the adapter and shaft for the 203-205 doubler. I will know more when I get the 4500 in my possession (God it feels good to say that).

So I took the guy my deposit of $60 and he actually wrote out a contract for the sale. $290 due at delivery of NV4500... Awesome... Just awesome!

[RicoBlaster]

Congrats!

[Brad W.]

What is it from? if he was sticking it on a dana 300, I'd guess it was a chevy trans? Any idea what year it is, or what year/make the tow truck was? the gear ratios changed at one point, but it's not something that makes a big deal, just a preference. If it is a later model, it will have higher gears, but that's not a big deal.

There are a few different tailshafts floating around for these, but the most simple thing would be to get the 203 gearbox from the application correct spline count, so you don't have to change the bull gear. let me know your tailshaft spline count when you get it picked up, I have an unwanted 203 gearbox in my storage unit *somewhere* that may or may not be right. I won't be doing a doubler, so I have no need. If I don't have enough gear, i'll get a 4:1 set...

[BRUTUS]

He said it was out of a newer cheby tow truck. He estimates that it had 40K miles on it when the tow truck was totaled. His friend gave it to him for his willys wagon. That is why he has D44 axles, rims/tires, D300 for sale. His plan was to put a modern drivetrain in a classic. I really don't mind which low gear it has... with a doubler setup it won't really matter that much. Plus the 5.61 later years has syncro'd 1st and reverse. I already have 2 - 203's to choose from but I will let you know if I need a different input spline count. I am almost thinking that the way to do it would be do the Klune V doubler unit instead of the 203 and just order it with whatever spline my 4500 comes with. Pretty easy that way.

[BRUTUS]

I just looked at my gearing calculator and the whole thing is much clearer to me now. The 203-205 unmodified I don't really gain any gearing diversity compared to the 203-205 lo-max. So the way I see it I can spend my money on a Klune V or a 205 lo-max + 203/205 adapter/clocking plate to get roughly the same gearing diversity.

If I break up the gearing at >10% (minimum distinguishable difference) difference I get the following:
NV4500 (6.34:1 low) - 203 - 205________________ 9 gears
NV4500 (5.61:1 low) - 203 - 205________________10 gears
NV4500 (6.34:1 low) - 203 - 205 (low max) ______ 13 gears
NV4500 (5.61:1 low) - 203 - 205 (low max) ______ 12 gears
NV4500 (6.34:1 low) - Klune V - 205 ____________ 15 gears
NV4500 (5.61:1 low) - Klune V - 205 ____________ 16 gears
NV4500 (6.34:1 low) - Klune V - 205 (low max) ___ 14 gears
NV4500 (5.61:1 low) - Klune V - 205 (low max) ___ 14 gears

I guess the only problem with this is that I am putting more reduction upstream of the 205. My guess is that the 205 will take it... either that or I get another one. I guess I really wouldn't mind if my 205 was the weak link! :D

[Brad W.]

you do have a round pattern 205, right? 32 spline input? I would NOT trust a figure-8 pattern, small bearing, 10/27 spline 205 to take the gearing. If you have a round-pattern, big bearing, 32 spline case, you should be fine. ditch your rear slip yoke if yours has it, get the OEM fixed 30-spline or upgrade to 32-spline aftermarkets.

I was going to suggest a klune, but I didn't want to give you sticker shock. They bring a premium, but for good reason. I'm still considering one for my rig, to be added later on after I cough up for an engine. Anyone got a spare EFI big-block?:p :D

[JeepsAndGuns]

If the NV4500 came from a 4wd chevy, then it will have a 32 spline output shaft.

Thats what I am useing, a chevy 32 spline NV4500. I am gonna bolt it to a ford NP205. The ford NP205 has a 31 spline input, so I am gonna swap in a chevy 32 spline input. I then just re-drilled 2 holes in the chevy tailhousing, and now the ford NP205 will bolt on, CLOCKED FLAT. Thats the only way I can do it without buying super high dollar adapters. I might have a kinda steep front driveshaft angle, but I am gonna be useing a high pinion front axle and a cv driveshaft, so it hopefully wont be too bad. Of corse there are about 100 other small things I also have to mod to make it all work, but this is the base of it.

[BRUTUS]

you do have a round pattern 205, right? 32 spline input? I would NOT trust a figure-8 pattern, small bearing, 10/27 spline 205 to take the gearing. If you have a round-pattern, big bearing, 32 spline case, you should be fine. ditch your rear slip yoke if yours has it, get the OEM fixed 30-spline or upgrade to 32-spline aftermarkets.

I was going to suggest a klune, but I didn't want to give you sticker shock. They bring a premium, but for good reason. I'm still considering one for my rig, to be added later on after I cough up for an engine. Anyone got a spare EFI big-block?:p :D

I am pretty sure I have the round pattern 205. I know it has the 10 spline female input and needs to be upgraded. Looks like this (without the slip yoke)
http://4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/drivetrain/131_0505_tran_05_s.jpg

Tell me about sticker shock... a Klune V has nothing on my NEW front axle:

http://www.jasonhabrock.com/jeep/lift/images/dana60released.jpg

I look at is as... why even do it if I am not doing it 150%... Yeah I know... I didn't get kingpins!

[Elliott]

If your 205 is a 10 spliner it's not a round pattern, as far as I know all the round pattern GM 205s were 32 spline.

[seamus]

I have a 205 from a early 1970,s international and was wondering what to do , and what to look for for a 4500 to make this work.

Seamus

[BRUTUS]

Well.. here are the pics... hot off the digital press:

http://www.jasonhabrock.com/jeep/images/tcase2.jpg

http://www.jasonhabrock.com/jeep/images/tcase3.jpg

http://www.jasonhabrock.com/jeep/images/tcase4.jpg

I was mistaken... it is a 10 spline male input.

[BRUTUS]

I have a 205 from a early 1970,s international and was wondering what to do , and what to look for for a 4500 to make this work.

Seamus

Get the 4500 first... adapt or get another 205 to match!

[BRUTUS]

If you have a round-pattern, big bearing, 32 spline case, you should be fine. ditch your rear slip yoke if yours has it, get the OEM fixed 30-spline or upgrade to 32-spline aftermarkets.

Brad... I assume that this is what you are referring to:

NP205 input conversion Kit:
Convert your male input NP205 to a TH400 version 32 spline short female input gear. Kit includes new input gear, input bearing and a seal and gasket kit. Requires machine work on the NP205 case to install. Gear, bearing, and seal and gasket kit also sold separately.
Price - $200.00

from http://www.offroaddesign.com/transfercaseparts.htm

[Elliott]

you will need a '85+ case that looks like this:
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Users/Elliott/OK205b.JPG

[BRUTUS]

Are you sure Elliott? I don't mind doing the machine work for the larger bearing. Northwest fab, offroad design and Klune all sell adapter kits for a figure 8 case. Then all I have to get is the 3/4" spacer that comes with the Klune to hook it up with 32 splines. I also realize that I will probably want to upgrade the rear output for 32 splines too.

http://northwestfab.com/images/Rebuilt205Billet.JPG

[Grimjaw]

I will be watching this thread carefully. I am planning a nv4500/203/205 to go behind the 6.2l diesel thats going in the j10. If money allows I would prefer to have 32 spline through out. I will be upgrading the 6.2l first, before hunting for a the trans. I am leaning towards keeping the engine and axles (D60/14bff) in the M1028 and doing all of those upgrades there. That way I will have a known good engine when the swap happens.

I have looked at the Lo-Max 205 also. It looks like pure beef, no weak link there.

[BRUTUS]

If I break up the gearing at >10% (minimum distinguishable difference) difference I get the following:
NV4500 (6.34:1 low) - 203 - 205________________ 9 gears
NV4500 (5.61:1 low) - 203 - 205________________10 gears
NV4500 (6.34:1 low) - 203 - 205 (low max) ______ 13 gears
NV4500 (5.61:1 low) - 203 - 205 (low max) ______ 12 gears
NV4500 (6.34:1 low) - Klune V - 205 ____________ 15 gears
NV4500 (5.61:1 low) - Klune V - 205 ____________ 16 gears
NV4500 (6.34:1 low) - Klune V - 205 (low max) ___ 14 gears
NV4500 (5.61:1 low) - Klune V - 205 (low max) ___ 14 gears


Grim, if you look at the chart above you are looking at 12 or 13 gears out of 20 possible being DISTINGUISHABLE from one another. I am assuming that the Klune V and lo max are ROUGHLY the same price (might be some discrepancy but...) so going with the Klune INSTEAD of the low max gives you either 15 or 16 out of 20 distinguishable gears for near the same price.

[Grimjaw]

Well I thought I would look at Klune-V prices. After reading that http://high-impact.net is the new 'Master Distributer' for Klune I checked their site. There is NO pricing info there. This always says to me 'Very High'.

If you find a dollar amount, post it I will be interested. I know the Lo-Max kit is about a $1000.

[BRUTUS]

I have already called my local distributor and he told me that the reason he doesn't have a price and prices aren't online is because there are so many configurations, input shaft, output shaft, adapters, couplers, direct shift - cable shift, 4:1 and 2.73:1 gears. My distributor told me that he can't get me a price until I tell him the output splines and the input splines.

I can't imagine them being more than $1000. Considering that an Atlas has more gears, more bearings, milled case etc and they are $2000+

[Grimjaw]

Not being willing to give a ballpark price says pricey to me. I can imagine all kinds of crazy things for the both of us.:D

[BRUTUS]

I pm'd Andrew about how much his cost... we will see if he chimes in... :huh:

My guess is $900. Grim... what's your guess?

[Grimjaw]

I pm'd Andrew about how much his cost... we will see if he chimes in... :huh:

My guess is $900. Grim... what's your guess?

Closer to $2k

[BRUTUS]

Wow... do you lose if you go over like the price is right?

[Grimjaw]

Wow... do you lose if you go over like the price is right?

Do I win one if I am the closest, without going over?

[BRUTUS]

Do I win one if I am the closest, without going over?

Of course!

[Elliott]

Maybe I misunderstood your goal, I thought the 205 was being connected directly to the NV4500. If you are doubling up the TC I'm not sure what all adaptors you would need, but be sure you can clock the 205 up 2"s or you may as well drive a GM;) ... for the belly draggin'

[Grimjaw]

be sure you can clock the 205 up 2"s or you may as well drive a GM;) ... for the belly draggin'

I know the NWF doubler kit can clock to any position. The trick is have enough room for all of the stuff under the truck without using a Body lift.

[BRUTUS]

If the Klune doesn't have clocking I am not afraid to throw the case on the mill here at work and drill the clocking holes myself. I know the Klune can be mounted in any orientation, not sure about clocking positions though. Definately something to look into.

[rockjeep44]

I pm'd Andrew about how much his cost... we will see if he chimes in... :huh:

My guess is $900. Grim... what's your guess?

Mine ran about $1700 and it was some of the best money I've ever spent. I got the 2.73 cable shift with a 31 spline input and 32 spline output. I also got a 1" spacer/adapter to mate it to the Atlas but the price of that was negligible. They are expensive but extremely well constructed and beefy.

[BRUTUS]

Well I am sold. I figure worst case with as young as I am, if I ever totaled my truck for whatever reason, I could always put the drivetrain under another truck or buggy. This drivetrain upgrade is still down the road a ways so I have time to convert the 205 to 32 spline female input and probably 1350 joints.

Anyone know if the Chevy 205 front output flange is for a 1310 CV like the D20? It looks to me like it is a 1350 CV flange but haven't measured.

[BRUTUS]

Here is how I would compare them ending up with similar setups mounted to the NV4500 IE disregarding front and rear output shaft spline counts:

Klune pricing: ($1700 + $200 for the 205 input conversion + $100 spacer/adapter = $2000 total)

Klune-205 pros:
New klune planetary
New klune housing
Bolt on installation
More gearing diversity (15-16 gears)
does have clocking abiliity (http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/images/KV%20Front%20Case%20Wide%20Pair%20ID%20800x600.jpg )

Klune-205 cons:
Cost
less beef after reduction :rolleyes: I still feel funny saying that NP205 is "LESS BEEF"
higher crawl ratio (5.34:1) relatively speaking

*********************************************

203-205 lo-max pricing ($1095 lo-max + $50 NP203 + $300 doubler kit 203-205 = $1445)
My NP203 will not work with the NV4500 because it is not 32 spline female input from a TH400 (I have a 10spline female input NP203 I was going to use with my SM465 10 spline male output). I would have to find another NP203 rangebox to do this. So there is more cost involved, NWF has 32 spline NP203 rangeboxes for $349 (before shipping). Sure you could find one cheaper in the junkyard though.

203-205 lo-max pros:
more beef after reduction
cost (barely from my standpoint)
lower crawl ratio (6:1) relatively speaking
Also has clocking ability

203-205 lo-max cons:
not a simple bolt on... rebuild of 205
less gearing diversity (12-13 gears)
$$ waste if you ever plan on going slower

The way I see it... it is worth it to me to have the bolt on Klune for the difference in cost. Considering I just saved between $400-$1000 on the NV4500!

[Elliott]

As far as I know, and I have several NP203 bits around I've measured, you don't need to to buy another range box... just the input and NWFab should have those also if you can't locate one cheap. I just scrounged around until I found one I could buy for $45.;)

[Grimjaw]

$$ waste if you ever plan on going slower




Which Klune-V are you looking at either the 4.0 or the 2.73? If its the 4.0, do you think you will ever use a 204:1 crawl ratio?

[rockjeep44]

I have a 356:1 crawl and I swear there have been times when I really needed it. Having that level of control over your rig is really amazing and lets you do some things you would never have thought of doing before.

[BRUTUS]

Which Klune-V are you looking at either the 4.0 or the 2.73? If its the 4.0, do you think you will ever use a 204:1 crawl ratio?

I wouldn't consider the 4:1... Klune recommends it for light rigs only... IE non-FSJ's. Overall, I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Especially since I am getting new driveshafts made anyways.

Elliott, I can still get ahold of my NP203's (buddy put them in the back of his no-xfercase suburban before it was taken to a new home). At this point I don't mind spending the extra $200-300 to have the Klune rather than the 203.

The more I think about it, I am trying to think of an easy way to disguise the top of the NV because I don't have a body lift with a shifter boot. I wonder if I will just have to get some material and make one?

[Grimjaw]

I was just doing a little research and saw a Dana300 4:1 LoMax kit and doubler adapter at NWF site. This may give you a better range of gears for a reasonable price. You would have 2:1, 4:1, and 8:1.

[BRUTUS]

I was just doing a little research and saw a Dana300 4:1 LoMax kit and doubler adapter at NWF site. This may give you a better range of gears for a reasonable price. You would have 2:1, 4:1, and 8:1.

Well... I would have to get a D300 then. The D300 that was being sold next to my NV4500 is already sold to a guy in Copper Mountain Colorado. I was suprised to find that it was 31 or 32 spline female input.

I may be wrong but doesn't the D300 4:1 kit require extensive case mods to fit? Also, isn't the downfall of the D300 that it has straight cut gears as apposed to the helical cut gears of the NP205?

UPDATE: My NV4500 is home safe now. I will take pics tonight next to the SM465... All I can say is BEEF!

[Grimjaw]

UPDATE: My NV4500 is home safe now. I will take pics tonight next to the SM465... All I can say is BEEF!

Congratz!

[caionneach]

Does anyone know if a Ford 205 can be modifed to accept a Dodge 23 spline output?

If so, that would be the best upgrade short of an Atlas for my NP208.

[Elliott]

If the Dodge 23 spline input was large bearing it would be a simple swap, but I think it's small bearing and since the Ford 205 is a large bearing case it ain't gonna work if I'm right about 23 spliner being small bearing.
So, then you gots to wonder if you can get a 31 spline 727 tailshaft... that is also doubtful. This is one more reason I like working with manual transmissions, you could just swap in a Ford NP435/205 and go;)

[caionneach]

Looks like a divorced mount Ford 205 is the only way I'm going to get that particular tcase installed. I take it those are hard to find. :banghead:

So, I'll be saving for an Atlas after my engine is done.

Kenneth

[JeepsAndGuns]

I am gonna be bolting a ford NP205 to my NV4500. But my NV4500 is a chevy version and it has a 32 spline output, so all I need to do is buy a 32 spline input for the 205, and do a couple other small mods and I can bolt it onto the NV4500. (but theres a little more to it than that) But if your dead set on a ford 205, then a chevy NV4500 might be a little easyer to adapt to. If you want some more specific info on what I am doing let me know.
But have you tried calling advance adapters and talking to them. They might actually make a adapter that would be mutch cheaper than a atlas.

[TexasJ10]

I'm with JeepsAndGuns. Get a 32 spline output for your NV4500 and a 32 spline input for the 205. I think the later model chevy nv4500's have an output that can be shortend an inch to work with the dodge tailhousing which is already clocked the same as the jeep with driver side drop. The early Chevy versions had a damper installed on the output and I'm not sure they can be shortened. I'm givng some thought to just getting a dodge 241 and slip yoke eliminator and calling it done for my j20 project.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Well, heres some more info. The dodge tailhousing has the same bolt pattern and clocking as the ford NP205. BUT, AFAIK, no one makes a input for the NP205 that will fit one of the two output styles that dodge uses (23 and 29 spline) The chevy tailhousing is longer than the dodge tailhousing (dodge is roughly 6 1/2, and chevy is roughly 8 1/8) The chevy output has about 2 3/8 of useable splines. So if you trim off the diffrence, then your gonna have less than a inch of splines on the output. You could probably make a spacer plate to go between the tailhousing and the 205 so you wouldnt have to trim the output so mutch. BUT, the thicker the spacer, the more stress your gonna put on the tailhousing and the bolts, and remember, this tailhousing is aluminum, not cast iron like the 205 was originaly bolted to. plus other things to think about, at stock clocking, the 205 is gonna hang down, and catching it on a rock is not gonna be friendly to the tailhousing. Not to mention, the front output is gonna want to take up the same area as the crossmember, so you will need to build a custom one that will also hang down, so it will clear the front yoke and driveshaft. Ground clearance will not be the best.

Now from fooling around with with all the parts I have, I found out a couple things. The chevy tailhousing can not be re drilled to match the ford 205, casting ribs prevent that. But after messing around with it I found that the bolt pattern is not to diffrent between the two. at stock np205 clocking, none of the holes line up. But when I started to rotate the talhousing, I found that when the front output is even with the rear (t-case clocked flat) that 4 of the 6 holes line up perfectly, and the two that dont, are only off by just a hair, and with a drill I fixed that easy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/JeepsAndGuns/nv4500011.jpg
Heres a pic showing basicly where it will end up when bolted together.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/JeepsAndGuns/NP205001.jpg

The notch for the shift rail falls in a great location, no casting ribs or bolt holes. The bearing retainer for the 205 is a little thicker than the inlet on the tailhousing, so that will need to be deepend by a machiene shop, but thats about where I am at right now. Its gonna be a while before I actually get to install all this. But I should have good ground clearance, be able to make ( or even mod the stock) crossmember that doesnt hang down low. But floor clearance might be a issue, and although I dont want to, I may have no choice but to install a body lift to clear it all. Shift linkage might be fun to mock up too, but I have plenty of time to do it.

[Elliott]

You can always use cable shifters instead of screwing with linkage alingment.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Yea I thought about that when I read that post not too long ago. Once its all mocked up and ready to go in, I will see how hard it will be to set up (make) some shifters, and if its gonna be too mutch of a headache or not enough room, then I guess I will just have to spend the money and get the cable shifters.

Also, something I left out, You will also want to build a frame mount for the extra side support mount the 205 uses. It helps support the weight and take some of the stress off the tailhousing.

[Brad W.]

didn't some of the early gen1 CTD dodges have the NP-205?? might wanna look into it, that would be the 29 spline dodge stuff you need.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Yea I think so. But I am pretty sure they were used with the getrag (sp?) trans, and when they started useing the NV4500, they started useing the NP chain drive cases. I dont know what spline outputs that trans would have. My dad used to have a eary 90's dodge diesel, his was a auto, but I remember looking at it once, and the trans had a round np bolt pattern, but the NP205 still used the figure 8 pattern, and there was a pretty thick adapter between the two. My guess would be the 205 still used a male input and there was a adapter sleeve in the adapter housing. But all thats just a guess, I never seen one taken apart.