Help....my Jeeps on fire!!!!-now with pics!!!!

[2nd Day]

Well i didnt see any acutal flames, but somethins not right when you try to jump it and things start burnin ans smokin. As some of you may know i recently replaced the alternator and was having what i believe are some dead battery issues. Well as a last ditch effort before a new battery, i tried jumpin it.

The current problem now is that one of the wires comin off of the seloniod started burnin from the inside out. I know there was a lot of backyard mechanicing done by PO's (not offense meant to to backyard mechanics smile.gif )and it was ruinning great till the day i drove it home (thats when the alternator quit). so here i stand with a 360 half covered in fire estinguisher powder, no clue what to do to fix it (although im thinkin replacing all the wiring under the hood)

Thanks for any advice yaw.... :confused:

**EDIT**

heres the pics....i took them in the dark, but you can see wuite a bit...anyone see any obvious problems?

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/wire1.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/wire2.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/wire3.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/wire4.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/wire5.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/wire6.jpg


sorry if they look the same, i was going for different angles...thanks for all the great input all...ill check out painless too...

*EDIT*

Looks like only about two wires were hooked up correctly when I got the Jeep. This was diagnosed by Porkchop today! Next step figure out the correct way to route it all and hook the alternator up the correct way...thanks to all that have posted here....this family rocks!

[ March 15, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: 2nd Day ]

[Gwamp]

Sounds like it would be a good idea to replace all of the wireing under the hood. Or at least all the the wiring connected with your starting system. You should be able to pick up a complete wiring harness in the wanted section for fairly cheap. I do know that when several of my solonids have died, they have partially melted. Looks like yours went a step further and started somthing blazing.

[andy d]

replace the burnt wire(s) also make sure the grounds are intact and clean. how long were you cranking the starter? it sounds to me like the solenoid shorted but there may be something else wrong too.

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

DO!! WHAT I KEEP TELLING BY DAUGHTERS BOYFRIEND, KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF!!..HE CHANGED THE TRANS FLUID IN HIS VAN,AND LOST 4 BOLTS OUT OF THE FILTER!!...AND I JUST LOOKED OUT BEFORE,AND HE HAD A 1" OPEN AND BOXED-END WRENCH IN HIS HAND :confused: HE MUST BE REPLACING THE SPARK PLUGS :D :D

[ March 02, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: GEMOBX/77/401 ]

[2nd Day]

WHAT I KEEP TELLING BY DAUGHTERS BOYFRIEND, KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF!! but it wont fix itself...i already tried to let it sit and tried osmossis too...nothins workin!!!!

[Bombadier]

I fried a fusible link coming off of the solenoid after trying to jump BlueVelvet.
It smoked pretty bad, looked like the whole wiring harness was about to go.
just a thought.....

[2nd Day]

hmmm, my whole things is in pretty bad shape...numerous electrical taped places, spliced togther etc etc..

....how hard is a wiring harness to replace?

[JERRY88GW]

That wire your referring to is probably a fusible link. They are supposed to 'burn inside-out' when they encounter to much electrical resistance.

They first thing I would do is replace the fusible link, it's probably a 18 gauge. Then check your ground(s).

I had a similar problem with my 'wag', turned out that my ground cable had a huge hole in it and the wires were corroded.

When your wag isn't ground probably the first thing that happens is those fusible links go.

[2nd Day]

pics to come....sounds like that may be the problem...

[BIGYELLOW78J10]

Did you charge the battery before you tried to start it? Unhappy things happen in a charging/ignition system with a dead battery, even when the donor battery is still attached

Good luck,

Daniel

[key]

Hey 2nd Day
There is a nice white GW out on highway 70 E. Its out by the second fling on the left hand side of the highway - I'll get the name of the lot and post it in the morning on my way back into Goldsboro.
Maybe its time to trade !

[2nd Day]

lol....thanks Key, i saw the one your talkin about today. any idea what they want for it? i dont know if theyd want ol bohunks....but theres this pesky 98 sentra sittin in my driveway....

[key]

No idea !

[kyjman]

I'd get a manual and check all the wiring under the hood to be sure its right.

[JeepBountyHunter]

Hey it's easy to replace the whole thing...a universal kit from painless would work on the engine side...they make one for the CJ's that is virtually Identical...just keep some of your connectors........or they have a universal kit..I called them once, and they are very supportive with helping you...I haven't done it myself..but have plans to yet........good luck..

[2nd Day]

Hey it's easy to replace the whole thing...a universal kit from painless would work on the engine side...they make one for the CJ's that is virtually Identical...just keep some of your connectors........or they have a universal kit..I called them once, and they are very supportive with helping you...I haven't done it myself..but have plans to yet........good luck.. sounds like a plan maybe....do u have a website or phone number?

[Hump]

Uhhh...sounds to me like you need to hook your jumper cables + to + and - to - instead of + to -!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[2nd Day]

yea....so they were hooked up right, but thanks smile.gif

[Max Power]

Hola,

You could get yourself one of those little mini starters with the soloniod right on the starter. You can get rid of your stock solonoid and some associated wiring too. Theres a little writeup on my site.

[Serious Johnson]

In my half-vast experience, the thing most likely to cause resistance heat load is inadequate path to ground. Of course, with a buggered harness as you describe, it's likely that the PO spliced a piece in somewhere that's not up to the task. Hot cables off the solenoid suggest that either the starter is drawing big loads due to worn/stuck brushes or it ain't getting good ground somewhere between the armature and the chassis.

When I encounter goofy electrical stuff (aka, anything wonky that I don't understand), the first thing I do is add another ground wire and observe. You should see all my grounds -- they look like a thick spider web! If we could just find a way to shove the factory smoke back in we'd seldom have to replace any of the 'lectric junk.

I'd be very interested to know how really "painless" those Painless harnesses are. I'm stripping my luxo-Wag like a race car, and just putting back the stuff that makes it go mo-better in the outback. Thing is, this will include EFI, onboard welder & air, plus dual batteries and solar charging for those long walkabout abandonments.

Just shows to go ya, closer to Ma Nature ain't necessarily simpler.

:-

[2nd Day]

anyone got info for this painless place?

[Retro93]

Try this addy: http://painlesswiring.com/ smile.gif Oh...and be ready to send massive piles of cash if you order from them. :D

[2nd Day]

btt...added pics....

[Mavawreck]

Mr. Robert Kelly, where did u get that starter an how much was that bad boy? my solenoid is sticking and I need a new solenoid/starter. How difficult is it to install?

[letank]

seems like the ammeter wire..... you either have a grounded ammeter on the line somwhere.....

of course depending on how much cooking.... you may have to replace more than the ammeter wire to and from ammeter to the alternator and battery post....

the parking light /dash may have thinned

i always thought that post 76 had fusible links

Michel
74 wag

[Wesdog]

2nd Day, the burned wire in the photo appears to be connected to the battery side of the starter relay. I would guess that wire is/was touching/shorted to the chassis somehow and probably discharged your battery. When you connected jumper cables to your battery that wire was a short circuit across the battery on the other end of those cables. Very high current flowed and you saw the results. Trace that wire and see where is goes. Is there a spot that look burned on a metal surface that wire was laying against?.

[Jeep Craze]

Hey also, If I am looking at this correctly your selonoid is hooked up backwards. My buddy w/ his CJ did the same thing and it would drain the battery (don't know why) and it fried the same exact wire on his, then when I switched it back, he didn't have anymore problems.The selenoid should be flipped around(upsidedown). The ignition wire(light blue in most cases) shoudl be on the side of the battery cable(hot all the time). don't know if that is all you problem or not but it could shurely be part of it. Craig

[2nd Day]

Hey also, If I am looking at this correctly your selonoid is hooked up backwards man i bet that alternator i replaced was good too....any other people confirm this?

[Wesdog]

2nd day, I looked at your photos again and it looks like that burned wire may have been touching the exhaust manifold. That would do it! A nice hot spot to melt the wire's insulation and short the battery out.

On the connections to the starter relay: Good eyes Craig! The relay is upside down and what results is a reversal of the battery/starter cable connections to the relay posts if the user doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't connect it correctly. There are 2 small terminals on the relay in addition to the 2 large posts (except on later model GWs that have an additional small terminal on the backside of the relay for a park/neutral switch connection). One of the small terminals is used to engage the starter relay. The other small terminal is internally connected to the starter cable post of the relay and is designed to provide full battery voltage to the coil/ignition system to assist in starting the engine but only when the starter relay is engaged and the starter is cranking the engine. If the relay is installed incorrectly like shown in the photo, that results in reversing the battery/starter cable connections on the relay and applies constant battery voltage to the 'coil/ignition' terminal and if it is connected to the coil/ignition system it will slowly discharge the battery by backfeeding the battery voltage to the ignition system. This is in addition to constantly applying full battery voltage to the coil during normal engine operations by bypassing the coil ballast resistor or resistor wire. This may cause an ignition system failure due to the higher current flow through the primary coil circuit and ignition control unit. The resistor is designed to lower/limit that primary current except during engine start. I think the small coil terminal is labeled 'I' and the other one is labeled 'S'. It's been a while since I looked at one of these closely.

[ March 04, 2003, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: Wesdog ]

[2nd Day]

anyone have pics of what one should look like or a diagram?

[Hump]

You can buy a Haynes or Chilton manual at your local parts store for $15 to $20. It will have all the diagrams you need. If you want to spend more money you can buy a Technical Service Manual for you year Jeep off of ebay, but you've already commented before about how you don't have the money.

How did you know how to hook it all up in the first place? My tip of the day, do a little research on what you are working on before just hooking it all up and crying when it goes to heck.

I saw where some guys offered you wiring harnesses off their Jeeps for a fair price, and even the price of shipping, and you have declined. Yet you are still asking about the painless wiring? Page 75 in the newest Summit catalog, you're looking at $300 for a "universal 12/18 circuit harness that you have to run all the wires for yourself. After seeing you the results of your wiring skills, you're better off buying a complete original harness that will be plug and play.

And, if the "grow up" topic in the general discussion was directed at me, then I think you might want to re-evaluate your religious signature, because you're not helping the cause with your attitudes. If you don't like what I have to say, then don't read it.

[2nd Day]

hump, thanks for the advice...the other post wasnt directed at you. i did not wire any part of the current problem that i am asking about.not rying to "cry" just learn.

[ March 04, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: 2nd Day ]

[Hump]

Hey man, sorry about the harshness...just been a little testy lately. My bad.

[2nd Day]

no prob...thanks for the good advice.... smile.gif

[Max Power]

hey bob the builder, I got the starter off ebay from a AMC/AMX guy, this isn't the same guy, but heres a link for ebay, not sure if it would fit in your '89. Just 2 bolts and some fairly minor wiring changes, I like it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2405488106&category=33576

[kyjman]

Yep you got flamed good this time.....check the wiring you did when you replaced the alt....nust've got um wrong.

[JJK4666]

I can't tell for sure but in the pic of the alternator, the brownish wire going to it looks awfully thick. I've never seen that gauge going to an alternator. Shouldn't that red one next to it go there? I don't know but it's worth checking out. If your year is anything like mine, there is no way that is a fusible link that burned. Not with an end that large. That looks like 4 gauge or so. Where does the other end go?

[2nd Day]

i am not sure which one you are referring to, but the top one is the big black grounding wire and the smaller one is the red wire that connects to the lower bolt. i havent had a chance to trace them yet....hopefully this weekend...thanks all for all the help!

[JJK4666]

Thats what I thought. You have them reversed. The red wire goes on the post with the red grommet. The black goes directly to the body of the alternator. This is probably where your trouble started.

[2nd Day]

thanks! i am going to check all the grounds and redo the alternator wires and replace the one that burned of course and hook up the selonoid wires corectly..thanks all for the help..!!!

[ March 05, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: 2nd Day ]

[kyjman]

Theres no telling how much other damage you've done to the eletrical system. I had the battery hot wire ground out on a manifold and had troubles for the rest of the time I had that car. Reversed power does funny things. Have fun and just think if you sell it then you'll be another DSPO. lol

[2nd Day]

well from what i have learned on this post alone and comparing to my Haynes Manual I have come to two conclusions:

1. I did not have any fusible links to start with (comparing with the pic from my Hanyes Manual)
2. I hooked up the alternator wire wrong-which caused the wire to burn.
3.The selonoid is hooked up backwards which was draining the battery.
4. I may of cost myself a lot of money cause I didnt ask enough questions on www.ifsja.org (http://www.ifsja.org)

Am i missing anything?

[kyjman]

Maybe you were asking the wrong kind of questions?
Looking at how many post you have in just a few months it looks like all you did was ask questions, so....they must have been the wrong questions. lol

[JERRY88GW]

Don't wory about it man.

If you're anything like me, you have to learn things the hard way.

[JJK4666]

Hey, how do you think people know things on here. We've made the same mistakes. I'm just glad that this resource is here to help correct mine and possibly prevent a few. I would check your ammeter behind the dash if you have it. I've read on this site that it takes a hard hit in this kind of situation and can cause ongoing probs.

[ironhead]

hey Brandon,
Just buy a used harness that someone offered you (get the front and the rear if you can). I'd give you one if I had any decent ones left, but I smoked the harness on my '72 (it has issues smile.gif ). Leave your old harness in place - work from the front and replace one wire at a time making corrections to your old wiring pattern as you go. When all the wires are completed on the front, move to the rear harness and do the same. Careful with the switches and dash wiring. Read up on grounding the ammeter - ground it to eliminate that hazard and you should be good to go (within reason of course). Pick up a new set of battery cables also. It seems like a large task (it is)but patience and perseverance will get you thru. Ask if you get stuck before you turn the key. Don't get in a hurry. Good luck
IH

[Wesdog]

2nd day. You may be lucky and may not have any significant damage to your electrical system other than the actual wires the high current flowed through when you tried to jump start your vehicle with a dead short across the battery connections. Your alternator may be fine also as it seems to me you only flowed current through the case to the block and back to the battery negative terminal. Time will tell! The high current that melted the wire shown in the photo also flowed through the other cables connected to your battery. I would recommend you replace those as they may be damaged and have developed a higher internal resistance than normal due to the overstress from high sustained current flow. These are the cables that:
1: Connects between the battery positive terminal and the starter relay battery post.
2. Connects between the battery negative terminal and your engine block.
3. Connects between the engine block and the frame.(This the one that melted I think and was connected between the starter relay battery post and the alternator case which is the same as the engine block electrically).

Please be careful and make sure you understand the connections you are making and why. Leave the connection to the battery negative terminal disconnected until last when you are certain everything else is correct. As you found out there is a lot of energy stored in a battery and it can release a lot of energy/heat real fast.

Make sure your battery is fully charged before attempting to start your vehicle again. Don't expect your alternator to recharge your dead battery. If the battery is no good, replace it.

You probably want to blow/wipe/wash off as much of the powder from the fire extinguisher as possible as I think it is corrosive. Blow it off first with a shop vac and don't inhale it! Keep it out of your alternator.
Good luck, Wes

[ March 05, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Wesdog ]

[xc_xtc]

posted March 03, 2003 06:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
seems like the ammeter wire..... you either have a grounded ammeter on the line somwhere.....

of course depending on how much cooking.... you may have to replace more than the ammeter wire to and from ammeter to the alternator and battery post....

the parking light /dash may have thinned

i always thought that post 76 had fusible links

---------------------------------------------

Could you explain this a little better? would this cause a draw on the batt.?

[2nd Day]

i think i am going to play it safe and overdue it just to be on the safe side and get a new wiring harness and redo it all. thanks again for all the advice...this will be my crash course in electrical work smile.gif

one thing at a time for sure

[Wesdog]

2nd Day. I have to say that based on the info and photos you have provided and the good observations by JJK4666 and Craig, the items that need immediate attention seem to have been identified. I have an electrical background and have swapped harnesses and re-wired my vehicles. I have also made mistakes and damaged my vehicles harness in the past. My personal opinion is that you would be better off fixing the items identified and determining if that corrects the current problem getting the vehicle running. I don't think a harness swap is warranted at this point based on the info available. It's pretty obvious where the battery current went that damaged your harness and I think it was limited to the areas I previously mentioned. I have to say that I haven't been impressed with your electrical skills to this point, no insult intended, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. Changing out the engine and under-dash harnesses requires some electrical skill and real attention to detail. You need to know how to use a meter and read/understand wiring diagrams to be successful. It most likely won't be a simple 'plug & play' installation. Go ahead and collect up parts for a possible harness swap in case you need to do a swap. But carefully fix the limited items I previously listed 1st, connect your alternator and starter relay correctly and see if that solves the problem. You will need to do those things anyway. If the vehicle electrical system was working properly prior to the recent problems I suspect it will again after the mentioned repairs are made unless more mistakes are made. I am sincerly trying to help you, provide good advice and minimize the pain.
If your mind is made up, go ahead and do a change out of the harnesses for your vehicle. I wish you the best of luck either way. Let us know how it turns out. Wes

[ March 06, 2003, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Wesdog ]

[Green Giant]

And have your fire extinguisher recharged and handy. Don't leave home without it. ;)

[2nd Day]

wesdog, yea i just dont want to do any further damage, but your right....the more i dig with my limited knoweldge, the more of a chance there is to fry something else.how about if i fix the burnt wire and switch the alternator wires around and reverse the wires on the stater selonoid? that should work right?

[Wesdog]

2nd Day, your plan sounds reasonable but take a good look at the connections to the items mentioned and try to determine what all the connections are and what they do. Disconnect your battery and get it fully charged and checked. Inspect the battery cable connections to the starter solenoid and engine block. If you can get someone knowledgable to help you please do so. This ain't rocket science but the alternator, battery and starter connections need to be correct or bad things happen. If you have a manual study it. Your signature says you have a 78 Chief. That means in stock configuration you have an amp meter on the dash I believe which is normally in series between the alternator and the battery. The photos indicate the alternator output may have been intended to be connected in a non-stock manner bypassing the amp meter charging circuit.

There is a rather large 10 gauge Yellow wire near the starter relay. That is the battery charging circuit wire that comes directly from the amp meter and normally is connected to the same starter relay post as the battery positive cable. That wire feeds battery voltage to the underdash harness and must be connected correctly. I don't think it is from the photos. Where does that Yellow wire currently go to?

There is also a large 10 gauge RED wire that comes out of the same harness bundle and that wire is normally connected to the alternator positive terminal. If a high output alternator has been installed then what you do is connect that 10 gauge RED wire to the same starter relay post as the battery positive cable and the 10 gauge Yellow wire. Then run a new 10 gauge RED wire from the Alternator positive output terminal to that same starter relay post. You should end up with 4 connections on that starter relay battery post - AND NONE OF THEM SHOULD CONNECT TO THE BLOCK, FRAME OR ALTERNATOR BODY! What this does is effectively bypass the amp meter battery charging circuit. To be safer it is desireable to use a fusible link or some other protection between the yellow wire, red wires and the starter relay post.
Note: you don't have to connect the yellow wire to the starter relay post if you are bypassing the amp meter but it has battery voltage on it and is dangerous to just leave disconnected. It can be used for other purposes but I am trying to keep it simple for now.

The negative battery cable is normally connected to a stud on the frame under the starter relay I believe. I usually connect the battery negative cable directly to the engine block using one of the AC bracket bolts as a mounting point. I then run a separate negative cable from the block to the frame stud. This is because the heaviest battery current load is the starter and the return current path from the starter is through the engine block. If you connect the battery negative cable directly to the engine block you provide a better starter circuit connection and also provide a good alternator return connection to the battery. In my opinion you do not need to connect a return/negative cable from the body of the alternator to the frame or battery. You saw what happens if you mess up that connection. If you understand all of this and can get it all connected, take a photo and show us before you smoke test it again. Good luck! Wes

[ March 06, 2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Wesdog ]

[2nd Day]

wes, thanks once again....well the family is gettin sick (me included) but hopefully ill be able to get out there this weekend and mess around a lil bit. i am askin around here to see if theres someone that can help me so i dont screw it up again. great idea about the pics before i start it again too...you are correct in the amp meter in the dash, its in the middle before and after this happened and works good when the Jeep is runnnin. That does makes sense too, thanks!

[JJK4666]

2nd, I would have to agree with Wesdog. Changing out a harness is a PITA for a well qualified mechanic.( Just call one and tell him you would like this done and check his reaction.) I don't think you have anything to lose by putting things together correctly and trying that first. You probably can't do any more damage that way. Just take your time and find all wires that are damaged and make sure to check your connections to ground. If you do not have an ohm meter get one and learn how to use it. You can't do either job properly without one. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[andy d]

for short money you can buy or make a 12volt test light and a continuity tester.ive seen these for like 3$ apiece in their cheapest versions best would be a volt/ohmmeter though. a cheap crimper and an assortment of terminal can be had for under 15$ too. use a light electrical tape and an indelible marker to tag wires with so as to leave a trail of breadcrumbs. patience is a good thing. luck plays a major part too. i'm off to locate a 20 milliamp drain , that's killing my wag's battery in 3 hrs. im gonna look at the scene of some first aid i did about 3yrs ago and forgot about. ive been wrenching for over 40 yrs and bitter experience has taught me to be sceptical of my own work.

[JJK4666]

Andy, the only time I use a cheap crimper is when I am working on my mother in-law's car. To me this is one of my most important tools. I like the Channel Lock with crimper and dike on the same tool.

[andy d]

me too, but money may be a factor to some of us. a crimper of any sort will be fine as long as you tug the crimps as you make them. i use a 15yr old craftsman that is a clone to the klein i use at work. but i have a cheapy i keep in my emergency car kit that works just dandy.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Change out a harness, do away with all and hidden shorts in the wiring. The underhood harness is nothing to swap out, not complicated in the least. No sense in band-aids on a mortally wounded Jeep. Otherwise let it burn to the ground and put yourself out of misery over this. :rolleyes: Last Jeep that caught on fire I parted out. Might be the best way to go! :D :D

[2nd Day]

Lol before i go the unheard cruel act of parting it out, i am going to replace what i messed up and the battery cause it had been charged once....sat for a while and now it wont hold a charge at all. a voltmeter will be in teh works very soon also, i have the crimpers with dikes on them too. more to come....tommorow i am going to go and take a look at it and do some cleanup. i may have a good link a used wiring harness from a 78 so ill proably pick that up just in case. unfortunaltley money and time are a factor. i hate to part it out cause before i messed it up it ran stronger than any other vehicle i have ever owned and the Jeep makes number 7. thanks again to all for the advice...more to come!

[Crazy_Jeepman]

You might want to double check the Alt too. Maybe its a Reverse Rotation Alt. and is sucking all the electricity out of the harness creating all these major BOO BOO's :D :D :D

[2nd Day]

right, well didnt get out to it this weekend after all. maybe next weekend at the soonest...thanks again for the help though..if nothin else im learnin...