One Ton's and Tire Capability ??'s

[Slick Willie]

Background: I'm about to buy a Front HP D60 Kingpin this weekend with stock 30 spline outers, replacement 35 spline outers that I'm going to put in, and 4.10 gears. After using 401's sweet gear ratio calculator (that thing is awesome!), I've found that I can run 42's (after lift and such) and have the same ratio as my 34's and 3.31's now. For now, not later, disregard prices, assume open diff, and I'm just trying to aviod breakage. And my right foot isn't shy, but it can be if needed. :D

Questions (get ready): With 35 spline outers, how would 42's hold up? Should I upgrade U-joints in the axle? Can you go bigger U-joints in the axle or just better quality? Heck, what size U-joints are in HP D60's?

I've heard 38's on stock D60's are "ok" to "iffy". So I figure 42's on stock D60's are about like 37's on a D44. :cool: Would 35 spline outers make up for the difference in 38's and 42's? Or would it reqire U-joint upgrades also?

Before you start telling me I'm an idiot or that I need 2.5 tons for 42's, I'm probably just going to run 40's on this front D60. I just want to know about 42's because it's the same setup as what I have now, which I'm pretty happy with.

Ok...ready....go

[Elliott]

I have yet to actually wheel my 60 with the 40" ground hawgs I have, but I'm thinking you will be fine until you start adding things like a limited slip to full locker up front.

[Slick Willie]

Good point, I will be open in the front for a pretty good while. I'll think about locker options after I get it set up and at least one good wheeling trip.

I edited the original to mention this.

[Stuka]

While the gearing may be technically the same, you will have quite a bit less power. You have to remember the MASS of the tire. A 42" tire has WAY more mass. IMHO 4.10's are barely enough for 35's, much less 42's. Be sure to run beefy u-joints, as the higher the gearing, the more stress you apply to your u-joints and drive shafts. When you move up to a tires that big, there are other things besides the axles that need attention. What kind of trails will you be running? Do you need tires that big?

If you look at nick's (orange cherokee) rig, he has 42's. but he has about 11" of suspension lift with lots of trimming. On the other end of the sprectrum, 4x4fever has 9.5's with a 6" lift and trimming, and a D44HD front axle :P And if you watch his video, hes not nice to it. So you should be ok with a D60 front and 39.5-40" tires.

[Slick Willie]

You brought up the point I was forgetting. I knew there was something else to consider. Tire weight. I've heard it talked about in other posts. So now I remember why I wasn't going to go over 40's.

So you should be ok with a D60 front and 39.5-40" tires.

Which outers and U joints do you have in mind to make this conclusion with? Just wondering.

Alright...new questions. I'm already going to be inside the axle putting 35 spline outers in...give me some U joint tech. They're going to get an upgrade...I need some ideas.

[crazydog]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/60_front/index.html

[Slick Willie]

Shoulda known bilavista has everything I need to know....

[Desert Beast]

depends how you drive,

42's on a 60 for trail duty is fine.

guys i wheel w/ break 60 parts (inner/outer shafts, ujoints, ect.) w/ 42s. (most of them have k5 blazers). which is one reason i went w/ 2.5 tons.

a 60 can be built tough, but it costs mucho $$$.

look at how you drive, (types of trails) that should let you know if a 60 will hold up.

[4x4fEvEr]

While the gearing may be technically the same, you will have quite a bit less power. You have to remember the MASS of the tire. A 42" tire has WAY more mass. IMHO 4.10's are barely enough for 35's, much less 42's. Be sure to run beefy u-joints, as the higher the gearing, the more stress you apply to your u-joints and drive shafts. When you move up to a tires that big, there are other things besides the axles that need attention. What kind of trails will you be running? Do you need tires that big?

If you look at nick's (orange cherokee) rig, he has 42's. but he has about 11" of suspension lift with lots of trimming. On the other end of the sprectrum, 4x4fever has 9.5's with a 6" lift and trimming, and a D44HD front axle :P And if you watch his video, hes not nice to it. So you should be ok with a D60 front and 39.5-40" tires.

i baby my jeep in the yard pat him on the hood and tell him good boy, i just seem to believe i should go up everything thats on the trail so really its just my right foot thats not nice to my jeep. :drivin:

slick willie, if you are gonna be open with a 60 and 42's u should be fine, you cant exactly go do hardcore trails where breakage is more likely if you are open anyways. so run it and see what might break. maybe nothing, maybe everything?? at the very least once u do lock it up u should atleast pop a ujoint or two and then u might wanna step up to the aftermarket parts. and with 42's you are gonna want atleast 5.13's your drivetrain will thank you just ask my D20 rear output

[rockjeep44]

In my opinion, 60s are plenty strong for tires up to 44" with just a few minor upgrades. I started off running 38.5 x 16" Mickey Thompson Baja Claws on steel wheels. The wheel/tire combo weighed in at 135lbs each. My 60s held up great to that with the exception of one broken 30 spline outer. I promptly upgraded to 35 spline outers and never had another problem. Now I run 42x14" Iroks on aluminum Trail Ready rims. That wheel/tire combo weighs about 117lbs. No broken parts whatsoever.

I've been beating on my 60s for about 5-6 years now and the only thing I've ever changed was to upgrade to 35 spline outers in the front. I stuffed the rear with 35 spline Moser axles in the beginning. Another thing to mention is with the exception of my rear Moser axles, the front is stuffed with all stock Spicer parts and they still haven't blown. When they do I'll simply upgrade to some stronger aftermarket shafts and it will be bulletproof. 60s are incredibly strong, don't underestimate them.

[Slick Willie]

Thanks for the input guys. That's what I was looking for was some examples. I know what driving style I have and what trails I will hit, but i don't have any "test data" for front D60's, stock or upgraded. I was wondering what they have worked for. Billavista says there isn't much difference in stock/old spicers and new/upgraded spicers, but of course that depends on the condition of the older ones. I figure since I'll already be putting in 35 spline outers, and at ~$20 a piece, I mine as well put in newer spicers just to save time later. When I get into it, I'll check the condition of the ~27 year old joints in there. But I bet they'll get replaced since it's such a small expense for an insignificant chunk of time to replace them (verses if I break one on the trail).

I do baby my jeep though. But I cuss it a lot too. Depends on how she's running. :D

I know I won't be able to run like this as much with large tires, but here's an idea of my mentality: When in doubt, Gas it!

Pedal on the floor... https://webspace.utexas.edu/jwr55/LHOR/4-22-06%20Weekend%20035.MOV?uniq=-ik89j8

[rockjeep44]

If you upgrade the u-joints don't waste money on CTMs or Longfields or anything like that. Get the new Spicer solid cross 5-806x joint. They are non-greasable and beefy as hell. I know people that have busted shafts and the joint survived. As a matter of fact I am overhauling my front end right now and putting these in there. Ran me $45/each.

[4x4fEvEr]

If you upgrade the u-joints don't waste money on CTMs or Longfields or anything like that. Get the new Spicer solid cross 5-806x joint. They are non-greasable and beefy as hell. I know people that have busted shafts and the joint survived. As a matter of fact I am overhauling my front end right now and putting these in there. Ran me $45/each.


off and on the subject does that spicer solid cross have a D44 version? and y didnt i know about that product before i got my superjoints!?

[rockjeep44]

5-760x, cold forged, solid cross. Not sure how much better it is over the standard 297x joints because I don't know anyone running them.

[Slick Willie]

Alright, I picked up the front D60 yesterday and it has a 1310 yoke. Everyone talks about upgrading axle yokes (a lot to 1410), which I've researched and want to do, but what about the transfer case end? Does anyone upgrade the transfer case yokes? Billavista likes High Angle Driveline's CV 1350 1 Ton drive shaft setup. I was wondering because I don't see any options at the places I looked for 1410 series at the transfer case yoke. 1350 is the biggest they have. And it doesn't seem right to put 1410's on the axle, but have 1350's at the transfer case. Sure CV's would help, but I'm talking about Cardan style. I have a 208.

Long story short, anyone have some info or experience with beefing up their driveline from t-case to axle? I know 1410 joints would be ideal for the axle ends, but I don't know what would be the best for the t-case end. I need info to decide if 1410's are overkill for the axle yokes unless I get _____ for the t-case ends.

Thanks in advance

[Stuka]

You sure its a 1310 and not a 1330? Ford used the 1330 fairly often on front D60's.

For 1410's, you have to dig a bit deeper. And you can get 1410's for the Jeep 208. Generally you want the same size joint on both ends of the drive shaft. Not point in having a 1410 on one side and a 1350 on the other.

[Slick Willie]

Thanks Stuka

Well, it was at an offroad shop (a rather large one) and he had it all taken apart. So part of the deal was that I would buy a complete axle, assembled or not, but complete. So he was a yoke short of a complete axle, so he took one off of another D60. I don't know if it was a Ford, but it probably wasn't. I just measured it, and it's definately a 1310. It's just over 3 3/16". Still 29 spline, but 1310.

Yeah, I didn't see a point in mismatching u joint sizes. So you can get 1410's for the 208. What spline count is on the 208 yokes? Would it be the same as the 229 front and rear? Where I am right now, I could check out the yokes on my 229. I'd have to wait to look at my 208.

[blt2krl]

One reason people run mis matched yoke sizes is for transmission pan clearence. Another reason is angle of operation. You may need more angle at the differental than at the T-case. The one thing to keep in mind is the 1410 yoke will provide more angle of operation but not a huge gain in strength over the 1350. I have 1410 yokes at the t-case, a 1410 on the front dana 60 and a 1350 on the 14 bolt. I have a brand new 1410 for the 14bolt that I got for free but have yet had a reason to put it on.

[rockjeep44]

You can get 1410 yokes for the NP208, I know because I ran them. The case is 32 spline. If I remember correctly I got 32 spline yokes for a NP205 and they fit the NP208 but it required a seal change. All in all not a big deal. I run 1410 yokes every where on the buggy now. They are the strongest, have the best usable angle, etc. If you are upgrading there is no reason not to go 1410 unless you just don't have the $$$.

[Stuka]

Tad's post here over on FSJN has the info on the seals. He has a dodge NP208, but it may use the same seals as the FSJ version:

http://fsjnetwork.com/fsjn/viewtopic.php?t=1833

[Slick Willie]

Thanks guys, that's what I needed. I'll rotate the rear axle upward to decrease the angle so I can probably get away with 1350's. The 1410 is only 17% increase in shot duration rating and 16% increase in continuous rating, but it's a 46% increase in max angle from the 1350's. But I figure that even with a HP front, it's still going to be a short driveshaft, and flex will make the angle worse, so 1410's are reasonable on the front. So now that I know 1410 yokes for the 208 exist, I can keep on planning.

Any suggestions where I can get all these yokes from? I'd prefer with U-bolts. Links would be nice too. :D

Edit: just saw your post Stuka. So it's as easy as acquiring Dodge 208 1410 yokes and replacing the seals? Rockjeep, this is what you did except with the 205? Sounds like any 32 spline 1410 yoke will work with the right seal.

[rockjeep44]

Sounds like any 32 spline 1410 yoke will work with the right seal.

egzackry

[KYJ10]

I have also run 1410's on a 208. Now I run them on my 205. Don't remember where I got my 14ff 1410, but I think it was either tom woods or high angle driveline. You can get the 208 and dana 60 at almost any place that stocks spicer axle parts. Like republic diesel. Or powertrain. They were all around $50 except for the 14ff, it was around twice that. Im not sure, cause just dont remember, but I think the 14ff came setup for ubolts. The 208,205 and dana 60 were strap type, but you can take them and just slightly drill out the threads, and presto, ubolt capable. As long as you just take out the threads, it will not hurt it in any way. All of the above mentioned yokes are spicer, and the ubolt kit part number is 3-94-18x That ubolt kit will fit all the spicer 1410 yokes. For some reason spicer stopped making the ubolt type yoke, but still carries the ubolt kit for it! Here is a spicer yoke number off my box, I think it is a 205 yoke, but again, not sure. 3-4-10951-1 Dennis And btw, I just took the new yokes, and the old oil seals from the axles and tcases, to a bearing shop, had them measure the OD of the old seal, and the OD of the new yokes, and match an oil seal to fit. Cheap and easy. Hope that all makes sense?

[Slick Willie]

Thanks for the info man. So I searched Google for a while, and I found your post on Pirate about where you found the yokes. :D

So where is this Power Train of America? And where did you get these Ubolt kits with part number 3-94-18x ?

[KYJ10]

Power train of america is located in louisville KY. They are a heavy axle and driveline shop. Not sure if they are national. Republic diesel stocks the ubolt kit. Prolly any parts place can get that spicer ubolt kit?

[Slick Willie]

So just some more thoughts on the subject, I'd like to know your preferences and reasons for running 1350 CV's at the transfer case verses 1410's. I know you can buy a whole driveshaft with 1350 CV's at one end with either 1350's or 1410's at the other end as a package deal, so it's kinda convenient, but it's expensive.

I'm going to run 1410 on the front 60, leave the 1350 on the 14bolt with it angled toward the t-case, now I have to chose the t-case ends. So CV or 1410's?

[rockjeep44]

1410s. CVs are for poop

[Slick Willie]

So I have:

-Paul runs 1410's on his 208 and likes it.
-KYJ10 used to run 1410's on his 208, now runs them on his 205, didn't mention any problems.
-Merc69 runs 1350 CV's at his t-case with flanges and really likes it.
-rockjeep44 used to run 1410's on a 208 and says CV's are poop.

It sounds like it's just a matter of price. I'll just talk to Austin Drive Train and compare prices on each setup.

Thanks guys.

[Bob Barry]

So just some more thoughts on the subject, I'd like to know your preferences and reasons for running 1350 CV's at the transfer case verses 1410's. I know you can buy a whole driveshaft with 1350 CV's at one end with either 1350's or 1410's at the other end as a package deal, so it's kinda convenient, but it's expensive.

I'm going to run 1410 on the front 60, leave the 1350 on the 14bolt with it angled toward the t-case, now I have to chose the t-case ends. So CV or 1410's?

Since I was starting from scratch, I went with 1410's all around, and the 1-ton CV on the transfer-case front output. Cost about 40% more, but I'm only going to have to do it once.

Also glad I went with .120" wall tubing for the rear shaft, as a rock scraped a candy-cane pattern into the paint on my last outing, but the shaft took it like a champ.

[shimniok]

Since I was starting from scratch, I went with 1410's all around, and the 1-ton CV on the transfer-case front output. Cost about 40% more, but I'm only going to have to do it once.

Also glad I went with .120" wall tubing for the rear shaft, as a rock scraped a candy-cane pattern into the paint on my last outing, but the shaft took it like a champ.

Sorry if I'm hijacking... how thick can you go with the rear driveshaft before it starts to affect hwy driving? Curious for when I get sick of trying to find replacement junkyard shafts...

Michael

[rockjeep44]

1/4" wall

BTW, good to see you on the board. Been awhile.