to SOA or not to SOA? that is the question...

[AlsChopShop]

well i'm second guessing myself on running SOA. the chief came with extra 44s with the tad perches already set, but i'd still need everything else including flattop knuckles and shackle flip kit. i was planning on running 35s or 36s but then you run into the problem of the 44s holding up and then you end up replacing axles with a 60 and a 14bolt. so whats the point if you will always be upgrading? this is supposed to be my cheap beater off-road rig, and its not ending up so cheap. then bring in the COG problem, it just seems a bit to tipsy to be that high after SOA, and this chero already gets me 'puckered up' around the turns. i actually like the look of the 33s currently on the rig, when it was up on the lift at the shop with the suspension at full droop it looked killer. now that i've looked through all the 'readers rides' pictures i find myself liking the looks of the 4" lifted rigs, they have a great stance, and the few SOA chiefs i've seen look a bit too big for still being streetable. i figure i could run 35's after a 4" lift anyways, worst case i go with a 2" bodylift way down the road, but i really don't even see really needing it.

so what do i do? sell the 44s with tad perches and save a few bucks for a 4" kit from BJ's? sure the ride will be harsh, but i don't care... i've got a young back. i'm not rock crawling so i don't need the extra flex of the stock springs. but then i think, "4 inch springs, why not 6 inch springs?" but then we get into the high COG problem again.

i'm also debating dropping in a new motor, this 360 has sat for too long and isn't very reliable. the chevy shoulder angel tells me to drop in a tbi 350 but the financial shoulder angel tells me a tbi 305 would do a good enough job. after all, they are found for next to nothing and easier on gas. so i'll just wait until the 360 grenedes then go all out with a 305tbi swap, should be sweet. but i'm getting off track here, the first question is the lift. motor will come second.

well guys, what do i do?


Al

[4x4fEvEr]

go spring under if its more of a street ride. SOA's are way overrated. a 4" lift wont be that stiff and my 6" rides pretty good down the highway.

[79kp]

I don't know about that. I've been doing a lot of reasearh on this,also. I wheel with a couple o' blazeers w/6" lifts and 33's 10 bolt fronts 12 bolt rears. They do well, don't break, and look good. The other guy has a waaaaaay lifted scout that breaks his d44's everyother time out on 36" tires. He's going the d60 route. I also looked at the cost of a 4" lift kit versus an soa. The cost for me would be the same. You can save money on the soa by not going high steer, just get a dpa. Do the high steer later. Thats my plan. I think with 33's and an soa on stock springs my wt would still look good.

[4x4fEvEr]

I also looked at the cost of a 4" lift kit versus an soa. The cost for me would be the same. You can save money on the soa by not going high steer, just get a dpa. Do the high steer later. Thats my plan. I think with 33's and an soa on stock springs my wt would still look good.


a dpa does not correct the steering on a SOA very well. saving money by having crappy steering isnt a plus it would look good but whats the point if u cant hold it in the road.

[AlsChopShop]

go spring under if its more of a street ride. SOA's are way overrated. a 4" lift wont be that stiff and my 6" rides pretty good down the highway. see that's the thing, its not supposed to be my daily driver but currently it is until my 91 gets in and out of the body shop. i bought this jeep as a cheap wheeler, something i can beat up, but i do have every intention to be able to drive it an hour or two so i can get to the trails or the beach. sure i could trailer it, no big deal, the 91 can pull it. but then i'm looking at buying a trailer. no good. that's why i keep thinking SOA is too much for what i need. a 4" lift on 33's or 35's is still very street-able, no need to change gears (i've got 3.54s) especially once i pick up the low range unit. after all, i have the advantage of a widetrac, i don't really need as much lift as the wag and n/t guys to clear the bigger tires.

you can see cost is a huge factor here. i can get the 4" lift kit for some $600 or so, and with the parts i still need for SOA i'm well in over $600. to complete the setup i need the shackle flip from tt's, the passenger side flat top knuckle, all the machining involved, plus the new drag link needed for crossover. and i haven't even considered the fact that it will definitely need new rubber going that high. with the 4" lift i can get by no problems with the current 33's.

bottom line here is i just don't know. the SOA sounded so sweet and easy but now that i look deeper into it, i'm leaning at a 4". i need opinions.

whaddyathink? :confused:

Al

[Slick Willie]

Let's talk fenders here. Do you have any? Do you want to keep them? ;) I have a W/T front, no lift with chopped fenders, runnning 34's, and it comes about 3 inches from rubbing on the leaf springs at full turn. So there's plenty of room. Heck Scotty ran 38's with no lift! If all you're going to do is 35's, just put them on, and cut some fenders. It's pretty cheap with cutting discs running about $3.19 a piece! If you're not going to go over ~35's, I wouldn't spring over. But I have the attitude of lowest COG involving a wide stance and the biggest tires you can fit for the lift. ~35's for stock, ~40's with SOA. All with cut fenders of course. But you're going to have to get bigger axles for over ~35's. Well, you don't have to, but you know...

Let's see your opinion on your fenders and go from there.

[AlsChopShop]

good point willie. i'm planning on keeping the w/t fenders on because oregon is pretty ticket happy about tread being outside of the wheel wells without fenders. plus, i like the look of the flares and want to keep the rig fairly stock looking, not all cut up.

so you are saying just slap 35's under my current stock suspension and maybe trim up some, then call it a day? sure i could, but i want some hieght too for the better approach angles. the 33x12.5s fit in the fender wells perfectly, the only rub i get is on full compression (bouncing while crossing ruts) and it just barely touches the top of the fender wells. 35's would smack pretty good without any lift and i don't want that.

i definitely hear you on the low COG thing, thats the main reason i'm turned away from SOA. i figure 4" and 35's won't bring up the COG too high, and i've heard the stiffer springs will actually make it handle a bit better than stock.

Al

[Slick Willie]

Alright, now that I know you want to keep the fenders, I can see 33's currently fitting well. To get to 35's, 4" would be necessary, if avoiding the all so unpopular body lift. You may think of 36's though. That would give you a little more umph for the lift. Also, cutting the fenders doesn't mean ugly or un-stock. You can cut them out a good bit, reinstall some fender flares, have room for larger tires, and still keep the stock look. Just a thought.

Without chopping the rear, or a tall lift, or large tires, the departure angle is going to always suck. A low COG Wagoneer will have a bad departure angle. That's just a fact of life. It's either bigger tires, bigger lift, or bobbing, or combinations. With 35's, just put a lot of armor under and around it. Rocker gaurds, skid plates, hard bumpers that don't stick out too far, etc.

If you're not going over 35's, and you're not cutting your fenders :rolleyes: , go with the 4". 8" from a SOA would be too much for our uses.

[Bob Barry]

good point willie. i'm planning on keeping the w/t fenders on because oregon is pretty ticket happy about tread being outside of the wheel wells without fenders. plus, i like the look of the flares and want to keep the rig fairly stock looking, not all cut up.

so you are saying just slap 35's under my current stock suspension and maybe trim up some, then call it a day? sure i could, but i want some hieght too for the better approach angles. the 33x12.5s fit in the fender wells perfectly, the only rub i get is on full compression (bouncing while crossing ruts) and it just barely touches the top of the fender wells. 35's would smack pretty good without any lift and i don't want that.

i definitely hear you on the low COG thing, thats the main reason i'm turned away from SOA. i figure 4" and 35's won't bring up the COG too high, and i've heard the stiffer springs will actually make it handle a bit better than stock.

I think if you're going 37" or larger, you're really making it into a different truck. I like the 35"/4"/trimming option for moderate wheeling.

The expense of going SOA with a D44 (brackets, welding, high-steer, knuckle-machining, plus regearing if you're going 36" or larger) gets you halfway to the cost of upgrading to a D60, which you'd want anyway for seriously wheeling a 37" or larger tire, since it's a bolt-on in the SOA setup with only need of a bolt-on steering-arm.

[LaJ10]

I like my J10 with 35's 4" in the front and 5" in the back.Never mad it rub

[BigRedChief]

I went through the same lines of reasoning...

SOA allows bigger tires, but then you'll want bigger axles and the CG is higher. There's also more fabrication and welding involved. More special parts (if you're doing high steer). I needed new springs anyway, so I was looking at going one step further and linking and doing coilovers or something. Even at the level of SOA I'd be seriously considering a roll cage as well. If you're going to build a cage and do that amount of fab, why not go all the way and just build a buggy...

I could see the costs and downtime fast approacing rediculous amounts so I opted for the 4" lift and 33's. I'm very happy with the combo. It's super stable, rides better than my stock springs (they were some kind of wierd custom setup), wheels pretty darn good and isn't too high to live with (no ladders or stools needed to get over the tailgate). The downtime was minimal. Really, I haven't gotten into a situation yet where I've wanted any bigger tires or more lift. I haven't even used e-drive officially yet.

[AlsChopShop]

you have any pics of your rig BigRedChief?

now i'm really leaning towards just selling the axles and running a 4". like you guys are saying, its really all i need.

Al

[BigRedChief]

Yep, still got these hosted...

http://members.cox.net/akelley9/FSJ/FlorenceToSuperior/BRC01.jpg

http://members.cox.net/akelley9/FSJ/FlorenceToSuperior/WheelinFSJ.jpg

[AlsChopShop]

do you happen to have a side view pic on flat ground? i wanna see the stance from the side. thanks!

Al

[BigRedChief]

The original picture was kind of dark and the only program I have to gamma correct is pretty old and crappy, but here ya go!

http://members.cox.net/akelley9/FSJ/chero_side.jpg

[will e]

But how about a short video:

This was up in Sedona. The first part is a pretty decent little bump in the road, you can see he clears it no problem. Second is a bumpy part of the trail too.:fsj:


WILL E does okay with 31" tires and a 4" lift (and usually about 400 pounds of crap in the back). If I had to do it over again I would go WT (Bigger tires with the same lift) or SOA/Flip the WAG (which I will probably do one day, that or sawzall it):sawzall:

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Users/Wille/BRC.wmv

[vstargirl]

This is a good thread, I have been wondering if SOA is the answer also.

will e, that is some pretty country...........where is that? If I had to Guess I would say Utah or Arizona?
Oh and NIIIIIICE JEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BigRedChief]

Thanks!! That'd be Sedona! That was one of the trips where the e-drive switch was purely psycological! i.e. e-drive didn't work at all, but I didn't know it yet.

Are there more vids or pictures Will e? That was pretty cool! :) I've got a few that I'm not sure you have. We'll have to get together and do a trade sometime! I thought you were working on (maybe just thinking about) going SOA too... I know the sheetmetal on wags is lower, but it seems like there's something else on them that makes them seem lower still. Maybe it's just a tire thing.

Not exactly a side by side comparison, but...
http://members.cox.net/akelley9/FSJ/Sedonajeepin.jpg

[Danbert]

sweet thread. I have been pondering this myself. I like th 4" with 33's. Now I just have to figure out the cheapest (that I can convince the wife is a good deal) and easiest way for it to be done.
Time to scour the forums for ideas.

[AlsChopShop]

i'm glad my situation is helping a few others!

danbert, remember that my rig (and bigredchiefs) is a widetrack so we can get bigger tires under a smaller lift than you will with your wagoneer. you would have to double check for sure but i believe you will need a 6" to clear 33's on your rig unless you want to cut your rear fenders.

Al

[will e]

Yeah, Al's right. 31" with 4" lift is as much as you want to go on a WAGGY but a WIDE TRACK Cherokee can go with 33".

For what it is worth, I get most places in the 4" lifted waggy. Just takes a little more planning. Also, sliders really do help. But I do have to stack rocks every now and then too...

[AlsChopShop]

well that settles it, i'm not going SOA. spring lift for sure. the axle set with tad perches are now up for sale. what do axles go for these days, is $300 a decent price? i'd like them gone sooner rather than later, but i don't want to be taken either.

now i'm still up in arms weather to do the 4" or the 6" bj's lift. 4" looks sweet but so does the 6" and i don't want to kick myself later for the extra 2 inches. i would think the 6" would flex a bit less than the 4", but i don't think i'd regret that extra ground clearance. hmmm....

Al

[Danbert]

That is good to know. I dont want to cut metal. I dont want to go too high as it is a family runner as well. I dont want to have to put steps or anything like that on. I may have to consider 31's instead. Or just enough lift front and back to level the truck and clear the tires. Like most on here, I am very limited on budget and will probably end up going with blocks in the back which might limit me anyways in tire size.
Sorry to jack the thread, I will do some searching for options and if need be, i will start a new one for lifting the Wag.

Thank you all.

[BigRedChief]

A lot of your clearance really comes from your tires. That's why a lot of people have the general philosophy to only use as much lift as it takes to clear the tires you want to run. You can comfortably fit and run 33's with a 4" lift and comfortably fit 35's with a 6" lift. The biggest downside to 35's is you'll want to re-gear for that much tire change. My speedo is exactly on with my "33's" that really only measure out to 32" when on the vehicle.

Edit to add: And the jeep pulls the 33's around just fine when it is running right.

[JPSwapMohn]

Wish I had the flares of a WT. I dont blame you for wanting to keep them. I think they set off the rig. Here is my GW with 4" and 32's. It is mainly a DD, with room for the dogs and the family when heading to the hills.. :fsj:

527

528

[AlsChopShop]

Wish I had the flares of a WT. I dont blame you for wanting to keep them. I think they set off the rig. Here is my GW with 4" and 32's. It is mainly a DD, with room for the dogs and the family when heading to the hills.. :fsj:

527

528 that wag looks good! :thumbsup:

when looking for a wheeling rig i held out on a few wagoneer offers (and a few n/t cheros) because i really thought the fender space would make a world of difference when going with bigger tires. i'm glad i did. i don't have a family to tow around though so i guess that has something to do with it too. i still wouldn't mind a loaded GW for a highway cruiser, but i just can't justify keeping my truck at that point. and i'd never sell my truck. :)

Al

[Subconscious]

So to fit 33's on a Grand Wagoneer, you'd need 4" of lift and some fender trimming? Anyone tried adding those Bushwacker fender flares (that's a lot of $$$!) ?

[BigRedChief]

Not that everybody really takes this part into consideration, but I've been going through the conversion to TBI and realizing another reason I wouldn't want my jeep any higher. Even at 6'2" reaching to the center of the engine is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't want to have to tote a stool around with me to each side I need to get to and/or sit up on a fender or the front end to work on things.

[AlsChopShop]

good point, but at 6'6" and with my monkey arms i think i'll be ok!

actually i was caught sitting on the rad support the other day to get to the carb, and this is at stock hieght! :eek:


on the other hand, think how much easier it will be to change the oil and other stuff from underneath! :D

Al

[Slick Willie]

So to fit 33's on a Grand Wagoneer, you'd need 4" of lift and some fender trimming? Anyone tried adding those Bushwacker fender flares (that's a lot of $$$!) ?

Um, I sure hope not. Well, I guess a lot of you want to look close to stock. Either way, you need less lift/fender trimming for w/t vehicles than n/t.

[Stuka]

I had 33's on my cherokee with 4" of lift and 1.25" of trimming. Well, the back was more like 5" of lift.