stock vs. x-over vs. hi-steer?

[AlsChopShop]

could someone be kind enough to explain the differences between the stock, x-over and hi steering setups? i'm a visual person, so pictues would be helpful. i've tried searching but no luck.

i'm eventually going SOA and want to figure out my steering options (as well as cost) before jumping in feet first towards one or the other. what are all the pros-cons in the steering department after an SOA? i'm trying to keep costs down, but i still need a rig that i can trust. any other options i'm missing?

thanks!


Al

[Stuka]

High steer moves the drag link and tie rod up above the knuckles via high steer arms. This is the best setup for a spring over lift. Cross over steering leaves the tie rod in the stock location but the drag link connects to a high steer arm on the passenger side knuckle. Also works good with SOA lifts.

[Slick Willie]

-Full High Steer, like he said, is all above the springs.
-X-over steering leaves the tie rod under the springs, succeptable to rock bashing, but still a fine choice.
-Stock steering will not work. There are means of drop pitman arms and z bars and other crazy business, but for the trouble, at least do X-over. It will save you in the long run and won't have near as much problems.

I can't seem to find the pictures, but here's a helpful link.
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=50774&highlight=Dana+60

[AlsChopShop]

thanks guys!

i'm not going to be rock crawling so x-over should be fine. i assume the cost is cheaper on a x-over than a hi-steer? what kind of cost am i looking at for each one? that link had wild $ figures that scared me, $800-900 seems way out of my price range. it makes me question going SOA and maybe i should sell my SOA axles and go with a 4-6 inch spring lift that i can use a drop pitman arm. or would i run into the same problems there?

Al

[HeepofaJeep]

thanks guys!

i'm not going to be rock crawling so x-over should be fine. i assume the cost is cheaper on a x-over than a hi-steer? what kind of cost am i looking at for each one? that link had wild $ figures that scared me, $800-900 seems way out of my price range. it makes me question going SOA and maybe i should sell my SOA axles and go with a 4-6 inch spring lift that i can use a drop pitman arm. or would i run into the same problems there?

Al
Shouldn't cost more than $300 or so. I think you will need to find a stock flat-top knuckle, if the axles are stock `79; That should cost anywhere from $50-100. Machining the knuckle should be ~$75 around here, and the necessary steering arm should be ~$60. Let me know if you need the steering arm, I bought one for a project off Ebay that I never used [new]. Necessary hardware for the arm is usually $20. I would make use of a stock tie rod for the rod that goes between the steering box & knuckle [you might have to shorten it a bit, no big deal IMHO]

Some [pre-77?] axles have the stock passenger's side flat-top knuckle, so you might possibly have that if your axles are not the same year as the cherokee. If not, I would look at the junkyards, etc, or if you can't find anything, let me know.

HTH.

Edit: one more thing. High steer is not all that much more $$$, and well worth doing. BUT I would do the crossover first, and that will be fine indefinitely. When you get a chance though, you can do the high steer just by machining the driver's side knuckle [your driver side is definitely flat-top], or finding a chevy one that is already machined [I probably have one for ya, Chevy arms came machined from the factory], and then just buying the steering arm for $60. So, conceivably, you could have high steer for an extra $80.

[Slick Willie]

There was a long topic comparing the SOA and 6" spring lift, and it explained a lot. But since the website upgraded, I guess it disappeared :confused: Don't get discouraged from it until you know some facts.

X-over is cheaper than high steer mainly because of the fewer parts required. You only need one flat side nuckle/high steer arm instead of two and you can use the tie rod in its stock location and form that is already on the axle or find a stock one somewhere. If you're not going to hit rocks, why not?

6" spring lift won't give you quite as much lift as SOA, it could require a dpa, and steering is a little shady. Plus your springs will be much stiffer, if you're driving on the road. Using SOA and stock springs will have roughly the same ride comfort.

I think going with a SOA with X-over will be pretty close to the same $$ than 6" lift spring kit but with a much better ride. I'll let the guys that actually have experience tell you more/correct me if I'm wrong.

[HeepofaJeep]

One more thing... I know from experience (well, it was a friend's rig) that tree stumps can be just as murderous on tie-rods as rocks :D, but if you met the driver of that rig, you would understand ;)

[derf]

Our SJ's came from the factory with crossover steering. That's where the drag link crosses over from the driver side steering box to the passenger side knuckle.

Chevy trucks came without crossover steering. The drag link goes from the gear box to the driver side knuckle.

Without crossover steering, you get binding when your front axle articulates. When the driver's side of the axle droops, your wheels turn to the right and can't turn back left.

With the crossover steering, the very long drag link causes the angles between the axle and the steering gear box to be smaller, causing less bind and greater steering control.


High steer is just bolting on some arms that sit taller on the knuckle. And when you put on high steer, you don't necessarily have to put both the tie rod and the drag link on the higher arm. I've seen the drag link high and the tie rod in the stock position. I have also seen competition buggies with only the tie rod lifted to a high steer position and the drag link on the low arm on the knuckle. But they were custom tube frame chassis for competiton and they tend to sit lower because they have no worries about tire clearance. So the low position gave them the better steering control and the high tie rod was just there to get it out of the way of the rocks.


You can have crossover steering without high steer and you can have high steer without crossover.

The best for a lifted Wagoneeer/Cherokee/J truck application is to keep the stock crossover and add high steer for both the tie rod and drag link.

[AlsChopShop]

You can have crossover steering without high steer and you can have high steer without crossover.
ok it was all sounding better, but now i'm lost! someone has to have pictures that can clear everything up?:eek:

Al

[HeepofaJeep]

ok it was all sounding better, but now i'm lost! someone has to have pictures that can clear everything up?:eek:

Al
High steer & Crossover:
http://www.spydercustoms.com/parts/steering/imga0011.jpg

Flat top knuckle:
http://www.spydercustoms.com/parts/steering/imga0130_med2.jpg

Crossover but not high steer:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Steering/Steering_Research/nonhysteercrossover.jpg

You would be hard pressed to find a vehicle with high steering & not crossover :rolleyes:.

[AlsChopShop]

last pic no worky. ;)

Al

[derf]

High steer & Crossover:
You would be hard pressed to find a vehicle with high steering & not crossover :rolleyes:.

Probably less than 1% of the vehicles out there. But I've seen a few K5 blazers run just the high steer block on one side and keep the stock arm and steering box.

[oldyellowwagoneer]

Probably less than 1% of the vehicles out there. But I've seen a few K5 blazers run just the high steer block on one side and keep the stock arm and steering box.
if they run the stock drag link and arm on the drivers side and a hi-steer arm on the passenger side where would you hook the tie rod? that won't work.

Al, when you come for the low range unit I'll show you my hi steer setup and also about the cheapest way to get your truck soa in time for mud season ( which is almost year round here.) Dennis

[derf]

if they run the stock drag link and arm on the drivers side and a hi-steer arm on the passenger side where would you hook the tie rod? that won't work.

You run the tie rod on the front where it normally goes. The chevy is set up with an arm that bolts to the top of the flat top knuckle and has a very short drag link that attaches to that arm. You can put the spacer block to raise the drag link arm without touching the tie rod.

I know, it's dumb to do that. But I've seen it done that way.

[ncjeepers]

A pic is worth 1000 words... good thing, cause I'm keeping my mouth shut this time.
http://www.geocities.com/ncjeepers/pup_steer.jpg

[Tad]

Looks good Tony, question:
What lift springs are you running where you needed the lift block?
I'm on stock chero springs (in the J2000) with PMP stuff, that jam nut is close but I think it will clear (we'll see if that also applys to the '70 wag this weekend).

[Slick Willie]

Y'all are confusing me a little, but this is Crossover (X-over) steering in my book. Please correct me if that's slightly off.

http://www.longhornoffroad.com/pages/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1983&g2_serialNumber=2

[Tad]

Will,
He just has the original tie rod in place down lower.
I have done that also, it helps keep everything aligned while we adjust up top.
Tony is setting up for full High Steering.

[derf]

Y'all are confusing me a little, but this is Crossover (X-over) steering in my book. Please correct me if that's slightly off.

http://www.longhornoffroad.com/pages/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1983&g2_serialNumber=2

That's crossover with half high-steer. The drag link is high steer, the tie rod is low steer.

For a full high steer setup, you'd have to move the tie rod up to the level of the drag link.

Cross over steering just means that the drag link crosses over from the driver side frame rail to the passenger side (at or near the knuckle).

[AlsChopShop]

A pic is worth 1000 words... good thing, cause I'm keeping my mouth shut this time.
http://www.geocities.com/ncjeepers/pup_steer.jpg

excellent picture! so i think i get it now... clearly the old part is stock and the new parts make it high steer. right? so where does crossover come from? that one still confuses me. :confused: it is crossover when the tie-rod is still in its stock position but the drag link goes right to the top of the knuckle, yes?

i think i was making it all to complicated in my head to start! :eek::D


Al

[Casey]

Looks good Tony, question:
What lift springs are you running where you needed the lift block?
I'm on stock chero springs (in the J2000) with PMP stuff, that jam nut is close but I think it will clear (we'll see if that also applys to the '70 wag this weekend).
Tad, I was a bit confused as well. I read several post by people that used the PMP arms without spacers so I ordered them. Then Tony called and said they needed spacers. So did mine. I had to get them and the longer studs. No biggie da and the SOA and shackle flip from TT's worked so well it's scary. I ever get this thing to be dependable it's going to be awesome.

Tony used stock Wagoneer springs and I am running stock Cherokee springs.

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Users/casey/twodogseci.jpg

[ncjeepers]

Tad,
As Rick mentioned, I used stock 80'ish Wag springs and PMP arms.
I tried it without the spacer, but the TRE would contact the spring at full droop.
I can't help but wonder what's different about yours.

[Slick Willie]

That's crossover with half high-steer. The drag link is high steer, the tie rod is low steer.

For a full high steer setup, you'd have to move the tie rod up to the level of the drag link.

Cross over steering just means that the drag link crosses over from the driver side frame rail to the passenger side (at or near the knuckle).

That's what I thoght. High steer is just putting the tie rod above the springs (up high, thus the name). But this is the only thing that got me confused.

And when you put on high steer, you don't necessarily have to put both the tie rod and the drag link on the higher arm. I've seen the drag link high and the tie rod in the stock position.


Full High Steer is tie rod on top of the springs, not in the stock location. Unless you're talking about [non-full] high steer. Sounds like it's just a name game.

So other than rock/stump bashing, what's bad about the tie rod being in the lower location? Anything?

[derf]

So other than rock/stump bashing, what's bad about the tie rod being in the lower location? Anything?

That's about it. You relocate the tie rod just to get it out of the way so it doesn't get hit and bent.

The drag link, on the other hand, should be as close to parallel with the tie rod as possible for the best steering geometry. So relocating that up high is to correct actual steering issues.