Pro-Jection, next step

[Narnian]

My buddy with the timing light couldn't come over to help me last night, so checking the timing has been postponed.

I re-routed the vacuum hoses as per WagThe78's instructions. Previously, the spark advance port on the throttle body was connected to the spark advance on the distributor and the manifold vacuum on the throttle body was plugged.

I connected the spark advance on the throttle body to the CTO on the thermostat housing. I connected the thermostat CTO to spark advance. I connected the third connector on the spark advance to the manifold vacuum port on the throttle body.

This made some huge changes on low end power. Now that I've made these changes I am confident most of my low end problem had to do with the spark advance not advancing quickly enough, because now the engine spins up to speed more appropriately. But I still get backfiring and poor performance when I give it full throttle from a dead stop. Are there any other vacuum routings I should check? Should I stop fooling with everything until my buddy can help me check the timing?

A few other notes:

1) I seem to have lost some of the response from the power brakes. Am I robbing vacuum or is it my imagination?
2) The motor seems to idle a little faster and a little rougher, and turning the idle control knob on the pro-jection seems to make very little difference on idle speed.
3) I am getting some backfire at higher RPM, but only when under load (like going up a hill). I may have been getting this before as well but I didn't notice it due to all the backfire at low speed.

I am not going to do anything that takes more than 20 minutes until at least Saturday. It's too cold and I have too much scheduled in the evenings. But I'm listening to the expert comments!

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360 w/Holley Fuel Injection, Edelbrock manifold, NP219, 3.31, 33's, no fuzzy dice (yet)
AND an 86 Corvette & 87 GMC Jimmy (Jimmy soon to be for sale)

[Veepster]

could your backfire under load be a pop instead? if it is you could be lean upstairs....it will show up more under load.....increase the fuel in the top end and see if the noise goes away.......lean is a very bad thing.......

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Peace.............BartG

the Green Flash!
360 2v, TH400 QT with low
4" skyjacker Rancho 9000's
33x12.50 BFG KO's 8" American Racing Baja Rims
Thorley headers, 3" exhaust, Dyno Max
Infiniti power leather seats
50%Luxury Car, 50%Tractor
http://www.teamgodspeed.com

[JeepFreak]

Although I don't have the experience with the Holley set-up your running, the problems you are having seem to be a combination of retarded timing and lack of fuel. I am assuming the backfiring is thru the manifold. This is all most always lack of fuel. The timing can affect this too. My experience would tell me to bump up the timing(since full vacuum helped) and bump up the fuel(richin the mixture).

Sorry Veep, didn't see you had already posted. http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

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JeepFreak



[This message has been edited by JeepFreak (edited December 06, 2000).]

[Wagthe78]

Happy to see progress Narnian.

From your latest post and the other two replies, I'm leaning towards the lean thang myself.

On my system, which is set up as correctly as you can for a vehicle with no injection history, my idle adjustment is all-telling.

You said that idle is faster and rougher. Faster could mean lean and so to could rougher.

On the system when it is close to proper mixture the idle adjuster will lean out the rig so it almost coughs and dies dead! I mean barely running at all it's so lean.

Likewise, adjusting idle to richen regains perfect running and will actually overrichen the idle and make the rig's idle fumble around a little, like a fat pig!

So I'm thinkin' that something still ain't right here, because mine works this way and there's no question about tuning that idle rich or lean. It sounds like you don't have any adjustment in that idle set knob. I haven't looked at this lately, but I think if you run it without the air cleaner, so you can watch the injectors, you should be able to see a lot more gas spray with the idle screw turned rich vs. turned lean. Maybe this will confirm whether or not it's still partly an injection problem.

Good luck this weekend!

[reddog]

If WAG's idea about your idle issue doesn't help You might check your CTO (or something else) for a vacuum leak. Those symptoms sound like a vacuum leak.

------------------
87 GW - Stock
TFI upgrade
360,727,NP229

[Narnian]

Last night and this morning, the idle seems to be back to normal. I still don't have the tach hooked up to measure precisely, but it does seem to be idling at the correct speed now, without me making any more changes. Still a little rough though. I'm LEANING towards too LEAN http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif (couldn't resist, sorry). It is possible that the fast idle solenoid was just stuck yesterday morning.

I will turn up the main (fuel) some more and try and double check those hoses for leaks until I can get that timing checked.

The PO left marks on the ECU for all the dials, and I've got the main well past where he marked it. My suspicion is I have a timing problem. However, I haven't been able to check the fuel pressure under load, so it may be that Ralph and I goofed up by swapping in an autozone fuel pump and the pressure is just not there when I accelerate.

Anyway, I'll leave it be till Saturday and manage with the gas turned way up. I think I need to eliminate timing as a problem before I do too much more messing around.

BTW, why is too lean a problem? What damage can you do?


[This message has been edited by Narnian (edited December 07, 2000).]

[Veepster]

lean causes extremely high temperatures in the combustion chambers, which can burn a hole in a piston.....if you have ever seen a interview with a race driver after a race and he says "I burnt a piston"......what he is saying is " the darn crew chief ran the motor too lean and fried the motor!"....

fuel pressure.......I have been reading up on the TBI stuff and have realized it does NOT run the same fuel pressure as port injection.....I would not do any more tuning until you get the correct spec for fuel pressure from the manufacturer....if you tune it with the incorrect fuel pressure and then reset the fuel pressure the tune will have to redone....good luck!

------------------
Peace.............BartG

the Green Flash!
360 2v, TH400 QT with low
4" skyjacker Rancho 9000's
33x12.50 BFG KO's 8" American Racing Baja Rims
Thorley headers, 3" exhaust, Dyno Max
Infiniti power leather seats
50%Luxury Car, 50%Tractor
http://www.teamgodspeed.com

[Narnian]

Holley gave me a wide range on the fuel pressure. They told me that 13 was the starting point, and that I might have to bump it up to 15, and if that didn't do it to go to 18. There is supposed to be a hex nut under a cover on the injector I can turn which will adjust this.

If I was running too lean and getting ready to "burn a hole" would my engine temperature show it, or would the damage happen without notification?

Holley told me I might need to set the injector up as if it were a big block to raise the fuel pressure. The PO said he had it set as small block.

Could I have destroyed the spark plugs from all the backfiring while tuning so far? Should I be pulling them out for inspection?

[This message has been edited by Narnian (edited December 07, 2000).]

[Veepster]

your coolant temp would not show it....a head temp guage would show it or an exhaust gas temp would show it.....lean will pop from the exhaust under load....or you can see it if you 'read' the spark plugs...

I have been experimenting with induction systems for a long time and I NEVER experiment without an O2 sensor....for about $40 and a voltmeter you can monitor your A/F ratio as you drive.....

I would suggest turning the 'knob' to make it really lean and then drive it (for a short distance) so you know what REALLY lean feels like...then turn the 'knob' so it is really rich..then you will have some reference.

If the system was not used on a AMC 360 with the exact same configuration completely disregard any previous tuning marks left by the PO.....cubic inches is not the only thing that will effect the fuel curve....head design and cam are the first to come to mind...and from what I have heard the AMC 360 head flows way better than a ford or a chevy SB


it would take quite a bit of driving to burn a hole, but any sustained driving while lean is very detrimental! to all internal parts.....basically it increases the combustion chamber temperature to an unsustainable level for the parts involved...

[Wagthe78]

That's a good idea Veepster. I run the black box set up for the Projection, but why don't you let Narnian in on how to hook up an O2 and wire it to a voltmeter and then what he'd be looking for on the reading to know. Is an O2 meter spec'd for rich/lean point? ($40 is better than $150+ from Summit for the box)

As far as the idle, if it's idling strong and not missing and cutting out, you prolly got at least enough fuel at idle now.

Also: a reminder that I run mine SB and 13PSI and have more than enough fuel delivery at all speeds.

------------------
'78 wagon with 360,Holley TBI, 4-speed
"Built to Spin"
("to spin" as in "rotate motor",not as in "abuse Danas")

Open up the throttle and support an Arab!
Or better maybe
Plant a tree for every day we drive our rig! (maybe every hour)
Or still better, maybe
Build a still and make go-juice from those table
scraps that our moms made us forever feel bad about
throwing out!

[Narnian]

The PO had this on an 88 GW with a 360. They did still use the AMC 360 like my 81 right?
I have the O2 sensor, but I can't find the wire to hook it up to the computer and everyone said to not put the O2 sensor on till I was done tuning.

It would be cool to know how to hook up the voltmeter to the sensor and make some sense out of it.

I fiddled with the knobs a wee bit last night. I think I've eliminated the backfire. It definately performs better overall. I still have bog on full throttle. I have to wait on the timing light for that.

I don't think I'm seeing ANY mileage improvement. I'll give it time.

And uhm, what's SB again?

[Veepster]

I posted this a while back...

you can use a multimeter with an O2 and save the expense of a guage..

an O2 after reaching 600 degrees creates a voltage from 0 millivolts to 1000 millivolts(one volt)....500 millivolts equates to an air fuel ratio of 14.7 to 1.....this is the theoretical perfect ratio for idle and cruising...and then full throttle under load you want about 12.5 to 1 air fuel ratio which equates to about 700 or 800 millivolts

if you look at those guages most of them have 10 LED lights.....100 mv turns on the first one....200 mv turns on the second and so forth

so you can save the bucks and use a multi meter....I have been successfully using this method for years....if you still want to use a guage check sdsefi.com they sell a REALLY small one and they are also the company I bought a EFI system from for my buggy

note: I simplified this quite a bit so if you have any questions or comments...share them

to add......the less expensive O2 sensors are referred to as one wire.....that would be your positive and then a good ground to the negative on the voltmeter....these need a while to heat up to the necessary 600 degrees....the 2 and 3 wire O2's jsut have a preheat feature.....other than thaty all the O2's are the same...

------------------
Peace.............BartG

the Green Flash!
360 2v, TH400 QT with low
4" skyjacker Rancho 9000's
33x12.50 BFG KO's 8" American Racing Baja Rims
Thorley headers, 3" exhaust, Dyno Max
Infiniti power leather seats
50%Luxury Car, 50%Tractor
http://www.teamgodspeed.com

[Ralph]

Michael Hannigan, the guy who had real wood siding on his Grand Wag, wrote me to say he had to use a higher grade fuel pump because his Wagoneer's fuel pickup was at the back of the tank, and he had a starvation condition. I'll ask him to check this forum and give his own advice.

[Narnian]

That is way cool Veepster. I'm going to have to print that little tidbit off and try it sometime. It makes perfect sense.


Ralph, my only real worry over the fuel pump we got is that the guys at autozone may have given me the wrong one. The guys at autozone "thought" that that it had enough pressure, but I think they were just making guesses at it. I am curious to hear what your buddy ended up putting in.

[Wagthe78]

That SB was just a reference to that switch for Small block or large block setting.

Great info on the O2, I think I'll grab a splice on that hotwire, so I can read those millivolts too, instead of just guessing at my red led that I guess is centered at the 500 mv.

Rocket science it is!

[Woodee]

Hi Narnian, my eBay friend Ralph pointed me to this forum (Gracias Ralph!) and your symptoms sound familiar. I installed Pro-Jection on my Wag and I had similar problems until I upgraded the fuel pump to a Mallory unit. I understand that the fuel pump you have is not a Holley model? Most aftermarket units rarely go beyond 12 psi and you need 15+. I've done a couple other Pro-jection systems and along the way I've somehow acquired an extra Pro-jection pump. It's new and you are welcome to it for the price of postage. Also, I have the Pro-jection video from Holley which is pretty helpful.

[JeepFreak]

Woodee, I'm guessing that your the same guy that has the Wagoneer with the real wood on it? If so could you post some more pictures of your rig? It looks really cool and would like to get a closer look at it.

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JeepFreak

[Dutch]

Where did you end up mounting the new fuel pump? I remember crawling underneath and it seemed like there wasn't a convenient place anywhere. Does it go inside the fuel tank and do you have to replace the fuel sending unit as well?

Dutch

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360 Bored and Smoked
Edlebrock Carb, Cam, Covers and Manifold (They have a line item on my pay-stub).
K&N, MSD, Taylor, American Racing,
Goodrich, blah, blah, blah...Way to many stickers (for my wifes taste)

[Wagthe78]

I put my holley fuel pump just ahead of the rear driver's side wheel on the outside of the framerail. The prefilter fits there too.

It doesn't get too dirty, it's below fuel level of tank, and it's easy access with wheel removed.

Someone got a better place close to the tank?

P.S. Woodee, if Narnian doesn't bite on that pro-jection pump, I could use it as a spare (nice to have in the box out in the desert) That price seems a little steep, though. would you come down any http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Wagthe78 (edited December 09, 2000).]

[Ralph]

I mounted Narnian's fuel pump inside the frame directly in front of the fuel tank. The frame changes from a rail to a box at that point, and it just seemed like a perfect place to meet the requirements that the pump be both well protected and mounted below fuel level.

P.S. Woodee has the GW with real wood panels on the outside, polished wheels, tailgate modifications whereby the regulator was removed to accomodate regular electric window lifts and subwoofer boxes. Check out his Jeep-related items for auction on eBay, including a sweet Edelbrock SP2Pmanifold (non-EGR, dual plane, 0-4000 RPM range) at http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=520547589

P.P.S. I got dibs on the speakers!

[This message has been edited by Ralph (edited December 09, 2000).]

[Narnian]

Wow, Woody, for that price I'm definately buying.

Is the Mallory the better pump? If it is, where do I get one?

Never mind, I found them at Jegs.

I should probably try installing the Holley fuel pump before I mess with anything else.

For those of you who were part of this conversation earlier, I found a fuel guage at Jegs that has a remote sensor, so you can mount it in your dash. Believe it or not, it's made by none other than Holley. It's not cheap though - $72. I think I'll try putting in the Holley fuel pump and if I still have trouble, THEN I'll buy the guage. With the work that Ralph did it should not be too difficult to swap the pumps. I'm mostly concerned about spilling gas everywhere. What keeps that fuel from dribbling out of the tank?

[This message has been edited by Narnian (edited December 11, 2000).]

[andy d]

Narnian, to prevent fuel spillage try this. clamp line shut witha pair a vise grips. be gentle. a small c clamp works too

[trssho]

Ralph,
Can you get Woodie to post some photos of his Jeep so we can all get some ideas. Would really appreciate it.
Thanks, Andy

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1989 GW Tan w/106K miles
1989 GW Blk Cherry 69k miles

[lanierboy]

I installed the Projection 2bbl and am using the fuel pump that came with it. When I'm sitting at idle, especially when the engine is a little cold or if my lights are on, the voltage drops down to the red. I can literally hear my pump speed fluctuate with the voltage meter. This leads to my question. Is this normal or is my alternator just not generating as much juice as it should at idle. Should I upgrade my alternator? I guess I can cheat and just up my curb idle speed a little. I currently have it set at around 600 or 700.

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1987 GW "Christine"
AMC360 / NP229 / TF727
Holley Projection 2bbl
TFI Ignition upgrade
Skyjacker 4" Spring lift
GoodYear Workhorse 31/10.5
http://members.home.net/lanierboy/

[Narnian]

I believe you are supposed to idle at 650. Speeding it up may cause other headaches.

I'm not sure what your voltage problem is, but I think that needs your attention first.