roll cage tubing?

[shredby4]

:confused: I know this has been beat to death...But one more time. What size and type is GOOD. DOM with 2 inch .120 wall thickness good enough? I'm talking about a cage, not just a bar. It will be tied to the frame.

Forget the super expensive alloy stuff. This isn't a question of which is better...It's what do I NEED. :rolleyes: And what can I afford....

[rustywagoneers_com]

lotta good stock cars made out of 1-3/4" x .095 HREW...

them alaska boys make incredible stuff out of 1-1/2" SCH 40 pipe... (about 1.94 od by .134 wall, technically it is ASTM A53 material...)

if you have access to 2 inch x .120 DOM at a price you like, it is plenty good as far as material strength goes...


peace
Dave

[derf]

Pipe is for poop.

You really want .120 wall thickness tubing for a cage. A lot of people use 1.75" DOM tubing instead of 2".

[rustywagoneers_com]

http://www.alaska4x4network.com/showthread.php?t=4639

peace
Dave

[orangecherokee]

i'd go 1 3/4" .120 wall DOM. it fits the rig nice and is plenty strong. some of the smaller rigs run 1 1/2".

[shredby4]

Ahhhh.... I see.....

I was looking at some tech section on the Advance Auto site. (Google found it) It had some rules for certain race cars and general guidlines. Recommended 1 1/2 .120 wall thickness for cages in cars over 2500 lbs. But a Cherokee is a good bit over 2500...So I thought 2 inch sounded better. :D 1 3/4 DOM is a bit cheaper than 2 inch...So that sounds even better.

Sorry, Rusty (love your site...btw, hows that Q-Trac low range setup coming along?) but I just can't bring myself to risk using pipe. Plus the shop I went to would never even consider it... Legal reasons maybe? ;) Since I have little fab skills it'll be done at a shop...

Thanks, ya'll....

ps.... Hopefully this means the top will be off and a cage in this summer! Doubtful it'll be ready for the ECI though. :(

[rustywagoneers_com]

nothing new on the qbox thing lately, and i am not recommending you use pipe, just making it clear that you have options, this not being the pipe thread (get the pun) it isn't worth hassling over.. i feel the same about design almost regardless of material... do everything you can to avoid intrusion of broken compnents into the passenger area, that is the big thing.

peace
Dave

[Desert Beast]

i think a more important question would be to ask what’s a good design for a cage. design is a much larger factor than material (to a point).

you can use 2" .5 and still have the thing bring teh suck in a roll.

but to answer your question a well designed cage out of 1.75" .120 wall can be fine.

[shredby4]

Dave,
Pipe thread, huh? I get ya. ;) I didn't want to get that whole DOM, HREW, schedule 40, debate crap going again either. Just wanted a quick "yep, that'll do" or "that's overkill," ya know? This shop seems to know how to build a cage correctly... But when I go back and talk to 'em, if I even doubt them for a second, I'll take it somewhere else. Plenty of race shops around here. Somebody will know how to do it right. ;)

[shredby4]

i think a more important question would be to ask what’s a good design for a cage. design is a much larger factor than material (to a point).

you can use 2" .5 and still have the thing bring teh suck in a roll.

but to answer your question a well designed cage out of 1.75" .120 wall can be fine.

Yep... I agree. There are a few NASCAR certified shops nearby. I'm hoping one can and will design and build it.

[derf]

Sorry, Rusty (love your site...btw, hows that Q-Trac low range setup coming along?) but I just can't bring myself to risk using pipe. Plus the shop I went to would never even consider it... Legal reasons maybe? ;)

There's a reason every race sanctioning body bans pipe and mandates specific types of tubing.

[H Callaway]

"There's a reason every race sanctioning body bans pipe and mandates specific types of tubing."derf (http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/member.php?u=1309) http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/images/images_ifsja_2-5/statusicon/user_online.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_427440", true);
Bleedin' Gasoline
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/images/images_ifsja_2-5/stars/star5.gifhttp://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/images/images_ifsja_2-5/stars/star5.gifhttp://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/images/images_ifsja_2-5/stars/star5.gifhttp://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/images/images_ifsja_2-5/stars/star5.gifhttp://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/images/images_ifsja_2-5/stars/star5.gif
DOM is welded tube with uniform wall thickness. The Flash from the weld is removed. Then it is Cold Reduced (Drawn over a mandrel) and the seam becomes almost "seamless". It is prefered over Cold Drawn Seamless because it has uniform wall thickness. Each tube is tested for soundness of the weld. Any structural part of a Nascar or Dragster (unless it is chromemolly) is going to be DOM to pass any kind of wall thickness requirement.
ERW is welded tube with the flash removed; however, it is not uniform in wall thickness and is not tested for soundness of the weld. It is produced as round, square and retangular tube. It is the lowest cost of all the Mechanical Tubing. Having said all that, the most important part of any kind of cage is the design. A simple loop that is welded or even bolted into the sheetmetal floor is worth about 0. Add some down tubes and it gets better. Tie all of it into frame rails and it picks up about 90 percent in strength. Start adding multiple down tubes, cross braces and the number of points where a roll cage comes in contact with a solid part of the vehicule and your survial rate at higher impacts gets better and better. All this time you have to be thinking about your restraints and seats (design and installation) to keep pace with the design of the cage.

For a Jeep I would suggest 1.75 DOM with a .093 wall and have a local racecar fab shop bend and weld it. I bet $500 would get a fairly solid cage and up to a $1000 spent would be a Cadilac.

[Dmntxn77]

Ahhhh.... I see.....

I was looking at some tech section on the Advance Auto site. (Google found it) It had some rules for certain race cars and general guidlines. Recommended 1 1/2 .120 wall thickness for cages in cars over 2500 lbs. But a Cherokee is a good bit over 2500...So I thought 2 inch sounded better. :D 1 3/4 DOM is a bit cheaper than 2 inch...So that sounds even better.

Yeah, your FSJ weighs WAY over 2500, but keep in mind that when a race car uses its cage, it is most likely going REAL fast. If you ever use yours, you will probably be goin unter 10mph....

Unless you are Andrew of couse... :D

[bchesley]

500 bucks wont get you much. I have built cages and tube cars and know how much time is involved. You factor in the cost of 4-5 sticks of tube to build a good cage with proper triangulation you are at the 500 mark just for tube! I would be prepared to spend 1500-2000 for something that I would trust my life with. The labor for a qualified fabricator should run 60-70 per hour of design and fab work also. A professionaly built cage is expensive. I have a buddy who is a fabricator for Gulf Coast Crawlers in Houston and he just built a cage with integrated seat mounts and tied into the frame for a fullsize blazer and it was $2500! I would ask to see some cages that who ever you use has built and inspect them. There are a lot of people who think because they can weld and bend some tube they can build a cage. If you have ever violently rolled a vehicle ( I did a double end over end in my buggy) your idea of a cage will change!

Brad

[scotty]

the cages in both my trail rigs are HREW(i think) from the local metal recycler. much cheaper paying scrap rate per ton than buying shiny brand new tubing. it sucks having to wire wheel all the rust off,but when you have more time than you have $$ you do what you gotta do ;) ive prolly built both my cages for half what it would have cost me to build one using new tubing.

i used 2" and prolly have went a bit overboard with extra bracing. if you can build a balsa wood stand to support alot of weight by engineering the braces right,an overbult HREW or pipe cage should hold up to a rollover.

[H Callaway]

I guess if you want to lay out the end use, I am sure I can get pretty close to what a fab shop would charge. My company is Callaway Metals and before that I only sold tubing and pipe for five years. I am in Va and my speciality was race car fabrication shops. I guess when I was thinking of a $500 job, I had in mind a J-10 with 2 hoops, 3 top braces and 2 side bars. I guess if I was rock crawling I would want the level of protection you describe. As far as the kind of people I use, you would be hard pressed to find any better. My welding skills are limited, but I know welds and certainly can tell you if the welder can do the job. I will put your buddy who is a fabricator for Gulf Coast Crawlers in Houston up against my brother in law who is the head fabricator for Newman/Hass. Approximate
Cost Per Car:
So you can compare your $2500 chassis against his at $395,000.
I guess you have to compare apples to apples if you want to make a real point.
http://www.newman-haas.com/images/line_blue.gif
$395,000 USD per chassis. This is off Newman/Hass web site.

[v10sport]

I am using 1.75 x .120 HREW tubing on mine. Seen plenty of rigs with a good designed cage anf 1.75 hrew take hard flops without issue.

[bchesley]

Chassis is different than a cage. Chassis has suspension, steering, and alot of other items that need to be designed into the vehicle. A cage is a cage, nothing else. The really good thing about a cage is that you can add to it when you have more money. You could get your A and be pillars done with a some rear bars and spreaders for starters. Then add some cross bracing with triangulation. Below is the half chassis that I built. I cheated and used the front half of the existing frame so that I did not have to design a steering and front engine mount system. Unfortunately this truck is with its new owner. Was a really fun buggy.

http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2051.jpg

[H Callaway]

500 bucks wont get you much. I have built cages and tube cars and know how much time is involved. You factor in the cost of 4-5 sticks of tube to build a good cage with proper triangulation you are at the 500 mark just for tube! I would be prepared to spend 1500-2000 for something that I would trust my life with. The labor for a qualified fabricator should run 60-70 per hour of design and fab work also. A professionaly built cage is expensive. I have a buddy who is a fabricator for Gulf Coast Crawlers in Houston and he just built a cage with integrated seat mounts and tied into the frame for a fullsize blazer and it was $2500! I would ask to see some cages that who ever you use has built and inspect them. There are a lot of people who think because they can weld and bend some tube they can build a cage. If you have ever violently rolled a vehicle ( I did a double end over end in my buggy) your idea of a cage will change!

Brad
See any tubing fabrication in the background. Brett built race car chassis in a little town called Charlotte for about 8 years. I think they call them Nextel Cars now? In the other side of the shop is a tube chassis Firebird with a Sonny Lenoard motor that runs in the 8's 1/4 mile. Street Legal. Brad please show us how a real fabricator shows his skills. Cages vary with requirements. shredby4 needed some ideas on what he can afford, I don't know if his pockets are as deep as yours. $1500 - $2000? I see guys on this forum crying over someone spending $5000 on a complete Jeep. I wanted to see a couple of pictures of your rock ready ride. Did I miss the thread? I wanted to see more of your skills.
http://www.fsjworld.com/gallery/hcallaway/87666.jpg

[H Callaway]

Chassis is different than a cage. Chassis has suspension, steering, and alot of other items that need to be designed into the vehicle. A cage is a cage, nothing else. The really good thing about a cage is that you can add to it when you have more money. You could get your A and be pillars done with a some rear bars and spreaders for starters. Then add some cross bracing with triangulation. Below is the half chassis that I built. I cheated and used the front half of the existing frame so that I did not have to design a steering and front engine mount system. Unfortunately this truck is with its new owner. Was a really fun buggy.

http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2051.jpg

Now that looks great. I can see how $2000 would be spent if not more.
I doubt that someone with a limited budget is going that far. More than likely he is just trying to make a cab safer. He may need to spend $1000 plus to protect his head, but more than likely he is trying to cover 90 % of what might happen.

[bchesley]

Sorry no thread on that buildup. That was a couple of years ago. I am definately not claiming to have skills. I am just a hobbyist that does this in his garage. I dont even have formal training. Everything that I know I picked up in college while working for a construction company. I am not doubting anyones skills either. My main point was that from my experience 500 dollars is not much to start with. The most important thing in my mind is to determine the abuse you expect it to take and then go from there..........


Brad

[scotty]

Sorry no thread on that buildup.
Brad

how bout this one ;)

http://www.binderbulletin.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25479

and then maybe this one :D

http://www.binderbulletin.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27513

just put the links for the pics back up in that first one. im not sure why youre downplaying it,i watched it back then and it was/is a cool truck and a cool build. :cool:

[bchesley]

Ok I am busted. I do have a bunch of build photos but not that many that have been posted to link to. I am not trying to down play it....Its just that everytime I see it I wish that I still had it. Unfortunately, I had to get rid of it if I wanted to get back into the FSJ madness. I am only allowed two toys and I already have a boat. I still have my bender and fab tools so one day I will build another. That build I will posted with lots of pictures for sure..........

Brad

[scotty]

Its just that everytime I see it I wish that I still had it.

i can definately understand that.like i said,its a sweet scout. i happened across that thread about the same time i was getting the itch to build my scout,and put a book mark there. youre not the only guy on the board to have a love for jeeps and IHs,busted ya good didnt i :D

funny how small such a big internet can be sometimes,aint it? :p

[Economos]

http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/1401.jpg
I love how the back of the buggy turned out; the lines look d@mn good. I can see why you miss this rig.

[bchesley]

Big internet but still a small world. Thanks for the compliments. I do miss it but love the widetrack more. I have two small boys and the scout was not safe for them to ride in. That and the fact once in the drivers seat you were pretty much fearless on the trails. I rolled it end over end twice. Rolled it back over and started it up and finished the trail. After building that one I learned a few things and the next one will be much better....hopefully full tube from scratch.

Brad

[Economos]

Seriously, I dig the back of that thing; I've got those eight or so photos saved... just incase ya know. :D

[bchesley]

Here are the few that I have posted on a website that can be posted.....


http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2054.jpg
http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2055.jpg
http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2050.jpg
http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2052.jpg
http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2047.jpg
http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2057.jpg

It has a 196ci four cylinder with fuel injection from a chevy cavalier! It would run upside down......I checked......

Brad