Truck avenger, TBI, or TPI???

[The Donzi]

It's time for a new carb. I already have an Edelbrock performer intake and a summit 8601 cam on the way. I currently have a carter 600 cfm 4 barrel. I am deciding whether to get a new carb or switch to TBI, or TPI?? I am not that familiar with the EFI setups so any suggestions would be appreciated... This is a daily driver occasionally but mainly a trail rig that sees mud pits and occasionally hill climbs but not slow rock crawling. I chose the 8601 because I am a nut and I like the lopey idle but mainly to get some good mid to upper range.

Can I run any of these EFI systems with this cam?? Is it worth the effort to run TPI over TBI?? Or to run TBI over a truck avenger?? I do occasionally go through some off camber stuff with steep inclunes etc.. so I could benefit from the stability of an EFI but the truck avenger is supposed to be pretty good at handling those situations as well...

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!! :D

[The Anti-Chrysler]

What kind of money are you looking/able to spend??? That might make the big difference. Carb is cheapest, then TBI, then big $$$ for MPI.

[jode]

As you must already know, the Carter blows goats for ANY off-camber stuff. I routinely find the edges of mud holes, and many other spots where my Carter craps out on me right when I need it most.

As to your question, it is all a matter of $$ as The AC stated. Obviously TBI is better than carburetion, and TPI is better than TBI, so really, IMHO, it all comes down to how much $$ you care to pony up...

[The Donzi]

I have about 400.00 to work with. And I am willing to go yarding to get the TBI, TPI components and download the appropiate softweare to get it running right. I can also modify my existing intake to make it work I just don't have all the specs needed. Does this swap sound feasable for 400.00?? If I do all the work myself??

[turtlejoe]

With $400 and your labor and yard efforts I think the TBI is doable. TPI is out of that price range I think, but this is only based on reading and not personal experience.

Good luck and let us know how it works out! ;)

[jode]

Phew - $400 seems to me like if you run into a small problem - BANG! You just blew your budget...but if you can make it work for that price I know of a place with a couple thousand people who might be interested -> it is called www.ifsja.org (http://www.ifsja.org) and it's really cool. Make sure to take detailed notes and pics, and they'll all be in debt to you 4ever. :D

[The Anti-Chrysler]

I agree with jode. You're playing with fire with only $400 to work with - I honestly don't think you will be able to do it (TBI). If you plan on getting a GM TBI system off a 350 truck motor (best donor I would imagine), watch out for wear in the throttle body shafts. The best TBI setups with the newer throttle body are from '92 to '95. '88 to '91 will also work, but make sure you have the right harness. Don't forget the small things (like a VSS) will run you up in price (~$100 for a VSS).

Be aware I don't know how an ECM programmed for a 350 SBC will work with a 360.

[jode]

Holley Truck Avenger (http://s94601051.onlinehome.us/by4x4com/index.php?cPath=73_75)

[The Donzi]

Jode, I am leaning toward the truck avenger but I'm not giving up on the EFI yet!! I'll go yarding and see what I can come up with.

Whose site is that with the truck avenger for sale?? That is a decent price compared to summit.

[mdill]

TBI I think is do able on $400, if you have the
tools to put it together. I don't think I will
have $400 in hardware costfor my setup, but I have
way more than that in tools, and totally ignoring
time factor.
To stay on budget
Get everything and I mean everything from a TBI
350 powered pickup/blazer/Sub .. Throttle body
wiring , sensors, dizzy , CPU .. preferably
from one that ran well right before it wrecked.
That is going to be close to the limit, right
there, so make the Throttel body adapter( I used
1" Aluminum plate and the top of the air cleaner
is ~ the same as OEM +/- 1/4" or so).
Make a box to hold the GM dizzy igniton module
lock down your current dizzy advance both mechanical
and vacumn. Use your current dizzy to trigger the
GM module, either use the GM AIR diverer valve
and just dump the down streem air, or dissable
your current setup. For O2 sensor you will need
to add either a heated one (There goes another $30)
in the crossover pipe or modify your exhust manifold
(I am welding a pad to machine on the drivers manifold)

Then there is fuel lines, some have gotten away with
external pumps, and going directly into the TBI
unit, and that should work well unless you are low
on fuel and are going down a grade at which point
I could see the pump going dry. So figure out
what to do there, one guy used a boat pump setup
that has a accumulator built in, I bet that was
$200 by itself.

OK now programing, most the info is on the web,
you will need a EPROM programer and eraser.

..

Lots of messing around, not all that much money
if you can do it. (I am still making parts)

Mike D.

[dnixon]

Remember TBI provides more low end power where TPI is for the higher in the RPM stuff.. so TPI isn't always a great buy if you are doing offroading. TPI gets better fuel economy but seriously you are driving a 3ton beast to be eventually on 38's (from your earlier post) so gas mileage doesn't appear to be a top priority of yours. smile.gif

[Glenn_tx]

I've got a CustomEFI on order, should be coming soon I hope. $925 shipped with all the sensors, custom software and stuff, also now come with new injectors. That's for the TBI.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[ February 04, 2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: GlennTX ]

[mdill]

Originally posted by SLOwag:
Remember TBI provides more low end power where TPI is for the higher in the RPM stuff.. so TPI isn't always a great buy if you are doing offroading. TPI gets better fuel economy but seriously you are driving a 3ton beast to be eventually on 38's (from your earlier post) so gas mileage doesn't appear to be a top priority of yours. smile.gif I would not fully agree with this, as TPI or MPI
will provide better fuel control everywhere in
the RPM range than what TBI can, true if you run
verl large runners to your TPI unit the low end
will suffer, but with small long runners TPI would
smoke a TBI unit at the low end, and would crap
out crap out at real high RPMs. It has more to do
with the induction tuning as to where the RPM
sweet spot is than how you get the fuel into the
air stream.

Mike D.

Mike D.

[The Donzi]

Great info guys. I'll try and find all the stuff for TBI, since i am looking to gain some lowend and throttle response. And I'm not really concerned about gas mileage but it wouldn't hurt to gain a few MPG. TBI is what I am shooting for, anybody know what years/model etc.. I should look for / stay away from etc..

Glenn, what is in your kit? New intake etc... Did they program your chip to your specs ie: cam profile etc...??

[The Donzi]

Mike, what is needed to run TPI vs. TBI??

[jode]

Originally posted by The Donzi:
Whose site is that with the truck avenger for sale?? That is a decent price compared to summit.It's new, and the site you are seeing is still in Beta version, but the prices are legit. Should be officially opened in a few weeks. It's mine smile.gif

[Glenn_tx]

He asked what mods have been done, what intake manifold, and what ignition system.

[mdill]

Originally posted by The Donzi:
Mike, what is needed to run TPI vs. TBI??To go multi point injection on an AMC, the biggest
issue is that there is no off the shelf solution, so
lots of work to fab a muti point manifold and
fuel rails ... Best left to those with real deep
pockets or ones with access to a machine shop and
skill to do the job.
The other option is to wait for Edelbrock to
release their setup later this year.
Rummor is someone on the list is going to be
a dealer and give all the members of the all the
free ones we want !

Mike D.

[timmirvin]

I guess I will have to take the old fart common sense approach. Carbs are much simpler, maybe not as cool, but you already have 90% of the knowledge/experience to go with an Avenger or the new Edelbrock Offroad carb. It will definitely be within your budget. And setting it up will be the easiest part of the mods you have metioned.....cam, intake, etc.

my redneck 2 cents.......
tim

[badaboom]

Mdill,
When that happens make sure you forward me that call. Many professional mechanics that I have spoken with tell me that they don't like any of the aftermarket FI systems on the AMC. To much mucking around they say. They say its a continual process of adjusting and re-adjusting it just never seems right most the time.

[ February 04, 2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: badaboom ]

[mdill4]

timmirvin, there is nothing wrong with a carb
at any given set point it will be almost as good
as a TBI injection setup, The TBI will have slight
advantage in fuel atomization, but I don't think
it would be measureable.

Where EFI shines is it can self adjust to conditions.
For evample a carb setup for sea level will run
like crap at 10000 feet, but a TBI setup with
feedback, can compansate and run good all the way
up and back down. but at sea level the carb and
the TBI would be close to equal. Also EFI can
make up to some degree for wear and tear on an engine,
though its learning modes but the carb will
require periodic retuning.

The factory setups (i.e. GM unit) is the way to
go IMHO, spares are easily obtained anywhere, who
wants to be in a small town somewhere and need
a Holley/Edelbrock .. specific part to get back
on the road ? The block learn modes that GM built
in have been proven to work well for millions of
cars/trucks for over a decade. The fun is getting
the GM factory hardware/software ported over to
AMC. I would think Ford and others would be as good
as the GM unit, butI don't know enough about them
to comment.

Mike D

[88GW]

A good carb such as the Truck Avenger will require initial tuning and then should be all set. This carb works very well from my experience and has not let me down.

TBI sounds good in theory, but if you read my post there is a lot more going on with it and at least with a carb no matter how bad it is, you can usually get them going. The junkyard approach sounds a little sketchy to me, as I had a system that was all GM on my truck that required PROM retuning. In theory it sounds simple enough to do, but the 350 versus the 360 fuel curves are not even close. It will run like poop if it even runs with the 350 PROM in it and you would have to find a good programmer to erase and re burn the chips for you. Just my .02

[GaWag]

The Donzi you can do TBI for less than 400 if you have a good yard like Pull-a-Part. I have been researching this my self. I found someone that is doing a GM TBI conversion on an AMC 360 V8. GM TBI Conversion How-to (http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=474943) He goes over all the snesors and their placement.

Steve

[KYJ10]

Glenn, I also am running a TBI system from customefis. I basically chose it becuase while my 1406 worked great, I finally built my rig to where I started finding climbs that were so steep, that it would stall out evrytime. And once I find something I can't climb or cross, then it's upgrade time. So far, the system has run fine. John is a little slow getting things out to you,(because he is so busy), but he is very knowledgable and thourough. I now climb places that no carb will dare. My .02 Dennis

[ February 05, 2004, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: KYJ10 ]

[Glenn_tx]

Originally posted by KYJ10:
Glenn, I also am running a TBI system from customefis. I basically chose it becuase while my 1406 worked great, I finally built my rig to where I started finding climbs that were so steep, that it would stall out evrytime. And once I find something I can't climb or cross, then it's upgrade time. So far, the system has run fine. John is a little slow getting things out to you,(because he is so busy), but he is very knowledgable and thourough. I now climb places that no carb will dare. My .02 DennisMy exact reason. Mine cut out at the top of a steep hill in Hot Springs, that was the last straw.

[blt2krl]

I really like my Truck Avenger for what it is worth.