square or round

[goblin79]

hay i was wondring bout which is better for a cage for my crawer can i get pros an cons for each

[Desert Beast]

First off Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley is a crawer? its crawler, crawler, there’s a Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogleying L in the word. You should seriously invest in a spell checker.

Second, this is sort of a "if you have to ask you shouldn’t be doing it" type of question.
w/ that said use round TUBE (read: not pipe).
I would strongly recommend that you take your truck to a competent cage builder and have them build you a cage. It might cost more but you’ll probably be a lot safer.

[yeep74]

Square will not bend as clean for all the angles.

It WILL KINK AND CAVE IN ON YOU. Or if you cut it and weld it 10000 times you have a lot of potential for structural weakness. Don't even get me into the pipe argument ( I like to live)Kid take it to a pro who can do it right.

Please get a spell checker and or a dictionary.

[ April 15, 2005, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: yeep74 ]

[Merc69]

Cages are nothing to fool around with and if you don't have the skills to type a full word and spell correctly...well go ahead and build your cage out of square and get nominated for the Darwin award.

Get spell check and learn to write full words and sentences.

[talntar]

the guy ask a ? and you all come out as Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogleyholes. he is asking for advice,i thought that was what this place is all about.
and trust me there are a lot of members that dont spell so great so get off your fu#$ing high horse

[scotty]

there is actually nothing wrong with a properly designed and constructed square tube cage. i would never build one,but i have seen a couple of square tube cages that were kinda cool lookin smile.gif

[goblin79]

theres a few off u here that can go strait to hell for the rest thx for the help dont no if ill be back here cause of the pricks :mad:

[ April 15, 2005, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: goblin79 ]

[talntar]

Originally posted by goblin79:
theres a few off u here that can go strait to hell for the rest thx for the help dont no if ill be back here cause of the pricks :mad: good going there guys,you should be proud of yourselves :rolleyes:

[yeep74]

Originally posted by scotty:
there is actually nothing wrong with a properly designed and constructed square tube cage. i would never build one,but i have seen a couple of square tube cages that were kinda cool lookin smile.gif I have seen a square cage done properly as well all cut and welded. works fine but it is not how I would do it. Too much potential for disaster because it relys so heavily on the skill level of the builder. I would go with a round stock material. However, I will slap you if you use black iron, low tension, or any other sort of household pipe. I mean that guy floped his rig saturday with us and his steel conduit cage split to heck. The weld seems on the pipe split and opened up. The welds on the end the ripped the parent material free of the bond and there he was. He was fine, shaking but living.

[Merc69]

I would have been glad to answer any question...I was a newbie here once. But I don't understand and when people want to use letters for whole words. It takes no more time to write a well crafted note than one with little to thought. I can get over the poor spelling...H#ll I have a hard time spelling SH#T with out putting two t's in it :D

Goblin79...slow down take a breath and type all the letters out and use periods, and other puncuation where it is needed. We all will help just try coming across as a 12 year old kid that is in a big hurry. If you own a FSJ you will need patience...a lot of it (I am sure I misspelled something in this post tongue.gif )

[talntar]

Originally posted by Merc69:
I would have been glad to answer any question...I was a newbie here once. But I don't understand and when people want to use letters for whole words. It takes no more time to write a well crafted note than one with little to thought. I can get over the poor spelling...H#ll I have a hard time spelling SH#T with out putting two t's in it :D

Goblin79...slow down take a breath and type all the letters out and use periods, and other puncuation where it is needed. We all will help just try coming across as a 12 year old kid that is in a big hurry. If you own a FSJ you will need patience...a lot of it (I am sure I misspelled something in this post tongue.gif )well at least that was constructive,good advice.
dont leave just because of a few people that think they own a certain section of this board

[Tanker]

On the question of square tubing or round for a cage.This is a easy to answer look to racing in the big leage its all round tube NOT pipe.As to my spelling so what I type with 1 hand and half a brain due to a bad accident I'm just lucky to be here.If your picky on spelling then dont read anything by me.Off rant.

[steven79]

Don't let one or two grumpy's deter you on here, most of us are real nice and will help you, and i see in your sig that you got off the bad stuff, congrats and keep it up, my nepfhue (sp) is in jail at this time from being on it and is in on atemptid murder. So keep on working on the jeep and stay clean.

[steven79]

And as you see i can't spell good ether but that does not make me stupid

[Richards]

The people on here are good guys, even the ones that dissed you, but it is frustrating to decipher every post. I think this is backlash from the posts before under the topic "wanna bulid a j300 crawer". If you are not positive about the spelling of a word or your grammar you can always type your post in word and then cut and paste it on here. The guys on here would be happy to answer your questions as long as they understand them.
David

[Desert Beast]

First off, I’m not trying to be the **** spelling Nazis, hell; even I make spelling mistakes here and there. I don’t give a $h!t about a misspelled word or even no punctuation (even though its annoying), its making coherent sentences, and spelling words that people can actually understand. That's what I’m saying should be addressed.
jesus christ, we have to be about to know Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley your saying to be able to help you. If that makes me a prick well then...

I guess some people are just easily offended. :rolleyes:

[Richards]

This is an example of what Desert Beast is talking about. I pulled it off the other topic.

"cool thx
i got to get up with them o get it tring to find out what i was n for im goging to get it"

[mrk442]

Originally posted by Desert Beast:
If that makes me a prick well then...
I think that just about summed it up :-P j/k
Anyone worried about spelling check out www.ieSpell.com (http://www.ieSpell.com) free spell checker that you can use right in web pages smile.gif

Matt

[WE B GPN]

DUDE.... I've been here all along and I thought that was just everyones different accents. ;)

[mudslider]

i don't care about spellcheck it makes it fun sometimes when something is misspelled. but none the less i think alot of people use schedule 40 or schedule 80 pipe and 2" .120 wall DOM tubing. that is something that through everybodies griping and whining, with the exception of the helpful ones forgot to tell ya.

[ April 15, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: mudslider ]

[Desert Beast]

tube doesnt come in schedule sizes. thats pipe, and while there probably are some people out there that use pipe for cages, there are also people out there that smoke crack, people do stupid things.
why take the risk, w/ your life and others that might ride with you.
just say no to the pipe.

[mudslider]

thanx for the correction desert. edited.

[goblin79]

hay all i just got p.o.ed,bout some of you talking smack bout my spelling. i agree that im off the wall some times,but dam dont get all hateful bout it just tell me. IS THAT BETTER ...................

[goblin79]

o btw im not going to go out an get black iron an cut an thread it im not that stupid, or conduit i ask bout tubing noy pipe

[goblin79]

this is my frist bulid. i just want to do it right an safe.

[viscacha]

Hey it’s cool. I use Microsoft Word and let it check my spelling. Then you can copy it and paste it right in that little box. Then I add that little smiley. :cool:

Paragraphs, I really like paragraphs.

(Spell checker found no misspelled words)

[JeremySmith]

Use round. It'll bend better, and bringing multiple tubes in from multiple angles will look cleaner. Don't worry about spelling and grammer either, I think we all knew what you meant.

[robselina]

What kind of jeep do you have? For most of our rigs, 2" diameter (ie - round) HREW or CREW tubing (there are many kinds of tubing) with a 0.120" wall will suffice. If you want to save a few pounds you can use 0.095" wall for anything that will never meet a rock.

If you know what you're doing, you can use 1.5" diameter tubing and save some pounds and $$s but in your case since it's your first build, not recommended.

Square tubing is good for bumpers and stuff like that, pipe, if it's good quality pipe is very useful stuff. There's nothing inherently wrong with pipe vs tube. The issue is that a lot of pipe is very high in carbon and other impurities compared to structural tubing, which makes it much less strong and particularly brittle in the case of high carbon content. As a general rule of thumb, pipe is excelent stuff for rock rails and other mods that involve a lot of contact with the rocks, but tubing is much more reliable and lighter for cages and similar work that is rather critical...

[goblin79]

cool thx for that ill use round.

[goblin79]

hay sorry i got a j300 dont no if i can use it or not, but i also got a 79 cj-5 so i got a rig one way or another.

[Tad]

Originally posted by goblin79:
this is my frist bulid. i just want to do it right an safe.Good, been doing lots of research myself.
I'm not a cage builder or a buggy guy either.
I have found lots of good info here, on POR and on http://www.offroadfabnet.com/index.php
Do your research, ask your questions, it will be fine.
You have to sort thru some crap to get there but it's the goal that matters.

I'm sure no one here wants to be the one that offered sarcastic advise that gets someone hurt.

That would be wrong and criminal IMHO.

Best of luck to you, feel free to ask away, email me (or anyone else, they put themselves out here, they do not own squat here, they can do what they want with it), post whatever you want, it's the internet, not the bible.

Thanks,

[Stuka]

The other problem with pipe is it has a seem running down it. Tubing does not. Pipe is also often cast, so it can have many air pockets in it. I dont think I would use pipe for anything other then using it as pipe to carry some sort of gas or liquid. Square tubing is stronger in some ways when compaired to round, but it will weigh more, and really needs a cross brace inside to make it real strong. What would be cool is if somebody came out with triangle tubing (maybe its out there, I am not sure). But that would be really quite strong, but it couldent be bent more then just a little bit. Angles would have to be notched and welded with inner angle bracing.

[Tad]

Originally posted by Stuka:
...What would be cool is if somebody came out with triangle tubing (maybe its out there, I am not sure). But that would be really quite strong, but it couldent be bent more then just a little bit. Angles would have to be notched and welded with inner angle bracing.The Geodesic Jeep, that would be very cool.

[Desert Beast]

tubing has a seam also, DOM even has a seam, its just cold formed to precise specs, which makes the seam hard to see.

[FSJeeper]

Goblin, I am not a fabrication guy, but I am pretty sure you want good round tubing for your cage. I do not think square tubing is the best material for a cage. There are some people here who really know why tubing is better and how to design and build a proper cage. There are also a few guys here can be helpful and I bet one of them will chime in.

In the meantime, the intenet has a wealth of information about this. I would start with the Pirate site and go from there.

Also, if you let these guys know that your frequent typos, etc., are due to excessive alcohol or drug consumption, they will get off your back about it.

[goblin79]

hay i got off dope 6 mounths ago

[goblin79]

thx for the info

[FSJeeper]

Originally posted by goblin79:
hay i got off dope 6 mounths agoOK guys, flashbacks. We can all appreciate that. Now cut this guy some slack and give him some good advice!

[goblin79]

lol thx

[TimK]

go round, if you need hints, search for cage build and pics.

It'd probably be a easy web search too,

A good description would be to check on the rules for cage construction for dirt circle track racing...
... Not that you have to build it that way, but it explains the 1 7/8" and 2" used, and the thickness required for each in what area.

That said, when your ready, feel free to ask the
"how /where do you attach and support the rear cage on a wagoneer frame" questions...

[robselina]

Originally posted by Stuka:
The other problem with pipe is it has a seem running down it. Tubing does not. Pipe is also often cast, so it can have many air pockets in it. cast pipe is high carbon and brittle, it's a definite no-no for just about anything. As for the seam, crew and hrew both have a very visible seam. DOM is also welded but then drawn which makes it much harder to see.

What you have to keep in mind with pipe is that there are many gradations so if you know what too look for you can get good quality mild steel pipe that won't split at the seam or crack 'cause it's high carbon.

[jeepsr4ever]

t

[FSJ Guy]

Wasn't the orignal question about ROUND tube vs SQUARE tube?

I think square tube would be fine (aside from not being able to bend it) except for the weight. For the equivalent strength of round tube, I suspect you'd need a bigger and heavier square tube.

[HeepofaJeep]

For straight on impacts, square is actually stronger, but, for our application, where multiple bends are needed, your best bet would be to use round tube/ pipe. PLEASE don't get everyone started about tube vs pipe, as there seems to be a great deal of misinformation spread about tube vs pipe (specifically between HREW and DOM, but that is another story).

Anyway, the round stuff is what you should go with. Although, and I don't know what your fab skills are, but judging from the question, I think you should find something that is already pre-made (I say pre-made and not custom because that will be a lot cheaper).

[KYJ10]

Ive never at this guy, but give him a brake. I know several people on here , that can't type worth a darn, but when It comes to common sense , being stand up people, good folks and decent people, they can't be topped. So lay off the insults. Answer the question, inquire without being an Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley, or simply pass and move on. Last I checked, this isn't pirate4x4! Dennis

[Stuka]

Ahh, so tubing does have a seem, ok. I am not a tubing expert, but I do know how physics work tongue.gif Square has its strong points, but it can 'fold' easily if hit on a corner (remember those parallelogram shapes from geometry class?) Although if hit straight on, then you have to bend 4 corners in order for the metal to depress, which is harder to do then a smashing in a circle. (circles need supports on the two sides adjacent to the impact to be strong, and which is why tube bumpers get smashed easier then square bumpers). A circle of course has no corners, so the pressure is exerted equally to either side, and will therefore push in where the pressure is (ie: dent). With a triangle, the corners are the strongest points, and the flat spots become the weakest point. But only in the center area of the flat areas, near the edges it gets stronger. This is why bridges and large buildings use the trangle everywhere. Although the arch is highly used as well, for the reasons mentioned above.

soo.. I went a bit off topic, but ohwell, its late tongue.gif

[Merc69]

Cage Fabrication:

1 - Only round tube should be used, not pipe or square.

2 - All bends should be done using a proper tubing bender, not a pipe bender or muffler shop bender. The reason is for strength. The other benders will kink the tube and the result is a weak spot in the tube where it will fail.

3 - All the ends will have to be coped using one of several methods. The strength is in the joint not the weld (Tad will back me up on this...I hope.)

4 - Gusset all the corners for superior strength.

5 - Welds need to be completly all the way around the joint. If using mig start on the thin portion of the joint and move into the corner. This will allow the metal to weld better...unless you are using tig then forget the welding thin to corner method.

6 - If you have the budget and are not willing to compromise your safety use DOM tube on all the main hoops.

7 - A real roll cage will tie into the frame using several proven methods.

A properly designed cage makes maximum use of triangulation and is designed for safety not looks.

There is a lot more to learn about cage building but this will give you an idea. With Steel prices the way they are now a good cage could run several hundred dollars just for materials. If you have to add a welder or have the welding done and at least another $800.00 for a basic mig unit, if you don't have a bender add another $700.00 for a bender with one die. Then add around $150.00 for a basic holesaw style coping jig. A chop saw in the neighborhood of $200.00.

Tools alone: @ $1,850.00 plus another $300.00 to $500.00 for misc small tools like a small angle grinder, 1/2" drill motor, expendables like grinder discs, chop saw blades, drill bits, welding wire and gas, etc.

If this is a one time project and you are not interested in having the necessary tools you would be better to have a professional build it for you.

[Manhattan]

Welcome aboard Goblin... or should I say: wlkm abrd gbln.. ;)

[Merc69]

Mark...wlkm abrd gbln...Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley There is no way I would get Welcome aboard Goblin out of that gibberish. I guess I have a language barrier to overcome :D

[goblin79]

thx for all the help i can read it thats sick i no lol

[offroad-dog]

Look for DOM .095 wall round tubing or thicker, DOM stands for (drawn over mandrel) everything else has a welded seam and that is a srtuctural weak point. all square tubing has a seam....you can use it because anything is better than nothing but if you are going to spend any money, doing it right the first time will save you money in the long run. Cage builders around here charge about $600 for a cage...its not fancy but they are tough....internal cage or exo cage? I like exo's they look cool and protect the body too!!

[Tad]

UH, to the best of my knowledge DOM still has a seam, it's just built to more precise wall thickness.
HREW will be fine I am sure

[goblin79]

i think im going to use my cj i found a cage already bulit for 100 bucks its got round tube so i get that an meke a trail rig out of the truck

[offroad-dog]

Technicaly you are corect DOM tubing has a seam before it gets drawn but through the drawing process it is virtualy blended into the tubing and perfectly smooth inside and out. this link will show you how it is made and give you a better understanding of what I am talking about.
"Including an animation of the process"

http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/domprocesses.htm

Process animation: http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/process/Dom_Process.html

[offroad-dog]

Originally posted by Merc69:
Cage Fabrication:

1 - Only round tube should be used, not pipe or square.

2 - All bends should be done using a proper tubing bender, not a pipe bender or muffler shop bender. The reason is for strength. The other benders will kink the tube and the result is a weak spot in the tube where it will fail.

3 - All the ends will have to be coped using one of several methods. The strength is in the joint not the weld (Tad will back me up on this...I hope.)

4 - Gusset all the corners for superior strength.

5 - Welds need to be completly all the way around the joint. If using mig start on the thin portion of the joint and move into the corner. This will allow the metal to weld better...unless you are using tig then forget the welding thin to corner method.

6 - If you have the budget and are not willing to compromise your safety use DOM tube on all the main hoops.

7 - A real roll cage will tie into the frame using several proven methods.

A properly designed cage makes maximum use of triangulation and is designed for safety not looks.

There is a lot more to learn about cage building but this will give you an idea. With Steel prices the way they are now a good cage could run several hundred dollars just for materials. If you have to add a welder or have the welding done and at least another $800.00 for a basic mig unit, if you don't have a bender add another $700.00 for a bender with one die. Then add around $150.00 for a basic holesaw style coping jig. A chop saw in the neighborhood of $200.00.

Tools alone: @ $1,850.00 plus another $300.00 to $500.00 for misc small tools like a small angle grinder, 1/2" drill motor, expendables like grinder discs, chop saw blades, drill bits, welding wire and gas, etc.

If this is a one time project and you are not interested in having the necessary tools you would be better to have a professional build it for you.There is some good advice quoted here.

you can farm out jobs too, like have someone weld it up for you if you can't weld well. or if you do get into the fabrication aspect, once you have some of the equipment you can keep learning new skills and buying more equipment and expand what you can do your self. there are a good number of people out there who turned this hobby into a profession!

For me half the fun is building and learning new stuff....then having fun trying new ideas! most of my free time is working in the garage or researching how to do something, there are 7 days in a week and I usualy only get to wheel once or twice a month but I can build every day!...I don't have time to get into trouble that way smile.gif

[J20 project]

Goblin, Again your questions are welcome. The industry uses predominantly(sp) tubing and they bend all of their curves. I think this is due mostly that untrained people really have no idea how to weld a pipe joint properly. I've built headache racks using pipe and elbows which have survived high speed rollovers with no problem. I do think square tube would and could make a very good cage but as someone said it takes some pretty specialized bending equipment to avoid having to mitre every joint.
J20

[FSJ Guy]

What's wrong with cutting angles for every joint? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but am wondering what the drawback would be. TIA.

[AMC258]

You run a good chance of your cage coming apart in a rollover if you cut and weld instead of bending, every weld is a weak spot, more welds=more weaknesses.

As for building a cage, a lot of shops will pre bend your tubing for you, costs about $10-$20 a bend.
That's the route I plan to go when I do mine.

[ April 23, 2005, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: AMC258 ]