View Full Version : axle ideas
05-28-2003, 01:18 PM
i have gone back to the drawing board for this one and i need some input into the matter. i was thinking of going with a 14 bolt for the rear but i want to know what kind of options i have as far as lockers, gears and ease of parts availablity. should i chunk this idea and go with a dana 60 instead? i know that andrew bored the rear axle out to fit dana 70 shafts. is this a better idea? i want my truck to be strong......extremely strong. also what about the front? i was thinking of going with d60. some folks have said rockwells but i want to be able to drive this thing on the road when i want to. i don't mind low gears but i'd like to be able to at least drive 60mph. i'm open to all ideas.
05-28-2003, 01:34 PM
14 bolt is strong, and the Detroit locker for it is Cheap. Parts are available for the 14 bolt everywhere. Can't see needing anything stronger. It is what I am puutting into my Caddy 500 Wag. ;)
05-28-2003, 01:34 PM
Everything I have read and been told is that the most bang for the buck is the 14 bolt and D-60 combo out of the military trucks.
The 14 bolt is in almost every junk yard out there so cheap parts are availiable. The Chevy D-60 has up grades available...something like 35 spline axles.
The 14 bolt appears you have a choice between a Detroit locker and an ARB. The D-60 you have a wide variety.
The Rockwells have only the stock gearing available. There are Detroit lockers for them. I don't have any info on how they would preform on a street driven rig. But you could have some really big tires with the Rockwells smile.gif
05-28-2003, 02:42 PM
The GM 14 bolt has a 10.5" ring gear and 1.5" 35 spline shafts. Detroit lockers drop in instead of replacing the entire carrier, so they're much cheaper. However, the lowest gears you can buy are 5.13:1 gears. It's a very cheap strong axle, and can be ground for good clearance.
The Dana 60 has a 9.75" ring gear and 1.31" 30 spline shafts, but the spindle can be bored to accept 1.5" 35 spline shafts when the carrier is changed, like buying a spool or detroit. You can go as low as 7.17:1 with the gears on a Dana 60. With the upgraded 35 spline shafts, I would pick it over a 14 bolt, but it's a lot more money to get them equal in strength. There are a lot more variations in the Dana axles though, so you have to be careful what you get.
The Rockwells run 6.72 gears and that's your only option. If you want, I'll look up the shaft specs, but suffice it to say, they're massive and you can run whatever tires you want. If you only want to be able to go 60, you'd only be turning 3200 RPMs with 42" tires. Granted that's not great. But it's about the same RPM you were hitting at ~75 with your 33s and 4.09s.
Let me know if you want any more info on any other axles or tires. I'd like to go with rockwells and 46" Michelins eventually. That's a long long way off.
05-28-2003, 02:57 PM
actually the 14 bolt has 1.5" 30 spline shafts. the oddball size/spline count is the only thing that stops me from wanting to make one into a front axle :D no factory sahfts are going to work :(
also,the ARB is not avilable. soon youll be able to purchase detroits electrac,and a couple others for a 14 bolt.as people are realizing the "beef per dollar spent" value of the 14 bolt and it grows in popularity,alot of aftermarket stuff is starting to pop up.
the 14 bolt has a bigger,beefier carrier than a d60,and the stock open diff has 4 spiders instead of your normal 2. it is also alot easier to set up than a dana axle,with backlash and preload being set with some funky spinny things instead of shims.for these reasons id pick the 14 bolt over a rear 60 or 70,and if it were a more cost effective option,id be all over turning one into a front :cool:
[ May 28, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]
05-28-2003, 03:00 PM
The D60 will have better ground clearance, especially if you shave it. A shaved 14FF will be close to that of a non-shaved D60. It all dependds what sizze tires your going to run. I dont see you ever breaking a 14FF, or a upgraded D60/D70. Even if you run big 'ol tires.
Rockwells are overboard. And such for the street, unless you have LOTS of shocks (TONS of unsprung weight) and have at least 1 overdrive. But you will never break them hehe.
05-28-2003, 03:03 PM
Will, i may just go with the 14FF, that was my original plan for the rear but what vehicle do i need to look for? also what front 60 will match as far as width (i need a pass drop)?
05-28-2003, 03:08 PM
is it posssible to upgrade the 14 bolt to 35 splines??
05-28-2003, 03:16 PM
what for? the shaft is still 1.5" and you will likely never break it. 5 splines is not really too big a deal-its not the same situation as the 30/35 spline d60s.the 30 spline 60 shaft is a 44-sized sahft. the 30 spline 14 bolt shaft is BIG smile.gif
when i was looking for some broken shafts to cut the flanges off of,i couldnt find any :eek: i endured alot of harrasment at pirate 4x4 putting up posts lookin for some. i finally had a guy cut up a set of useable sahfts for $10 apiece and send me the flanges. said it was no biggie-he ad more of em and wasnt worried bout breakin em anyway. "ok" i said tongue.gif
they are so easy to find,its no biggie to obtasin a set of spare shafts to carry with you,just incase you are actually able to break one.
05-28-2003, 03:22 PM
sweet this sounds better as the posts go on. well, i think 14bolt it is for the rear now for the front. what vehicles do i look for? chevy vans for the 14bolt and what for the pass drop d60s?
05-28-2003, 04:11 PM
Chevy pickups used pass side drops up until 88, after that they are IFS (except K5's which where made until 91 with a solid front 10 bolt). Most people it seams look from the military CUCV trucks that come with 4.56 gears, D60 front, SRW 14FF which has a detroit in it.
05-28-2003, 04:32 PM
I see 14 bolt Dana 60 combos with 4.56 gears and a detroit in the rear out of CUCV trucks quite often for around $1500. If I were you I'd check some of the military surplus yards in Knox. I know there are some there cuz last set I called on was in knox. Best place to look is www.tennesseeoffroad.com. (http://www.tennesseeoffroad.com.) Thats normally where I see them posted. On their msg board. I've got a lot more to add OC but I'm tired and hittin the sack man. We'll discuss more later on AOL or somethin. Later man
05-29-2003, 12:29 AM
Here is a comparison shot of my bent 44 and my new 14FF.. Kinda gives you a good idea of size difeerence... ;)
05-29-2003, 12:46 AM
they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
05-29-2003, 01:13 AM
Weld Paddles on the Brake Drums to help get through the MUD!!! :D :D Would Look good in the SIG:
MY 78 Wagoneer
rebuild of drivetrain/suspension/body mods in progress:
Paddled Brake Drums!!!!!!!!!
:D :D :D tongue.gif
05-29-2003, 01:45 AM
LMAO!!! Pete!!! YOU CRAZY FOR SURE!!!!
Of course with the right offset rims, you won't see THAT MUCH of the paddles... but they may help in fording a river or 2.... :D ;)
05-29-2003, 01:48 AM
Note to any considering Rockwells under their Jeep. Cheack out USA6x6.com for parts, lockers, axle shaft upgrades, and disc brake kits(both pinion brakes and regular discs)
05-29-2003, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by rockjeep44:
I see 14 bolt Dana 60 combos with 4.56 gears and a detroit in the rear out of CUCV trucks quite often for around $1500. If I were you I'd check some of the military surplus yards in Knox... Andrew is right.... I got my 14FF and D60 from a 84 CUCV truck... rated at 1.25T (got a copy of the title) ... Most parts sotres will have them listed as K30 models. The 14FF is detroited with 4.56 gears and the D60 is open 4.56's.... and I paid $1500.... couldn't ask for a better deal....
Both axles I had shipped to me on 2 pallets.... 1290 lbs total weight for just over $310 shipping cost and got them in 3 days from www.forwardair.com (http://www.forwardair.com)
[ May 29, 2003, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: River Beast ]
05-29-2003, 09:39 AM
Yeah, the 1.25 ton axles are probably the best package deal. They'll probably be in better shape and already have 4.56 gears in them, although I managed to get my Dana 60 front and 14 bolt rear for a total of $800 with 4.09s but it took a lot more hassle. As far a looking for a Dana 60, mine came from a Dodge single wheel 1 ton and bolted right up. If you run a dually axle Dana 60 up front, you can use Hummer Beadlock wheels. Look for a Dana 60 out of a 73-88 K30 Chevy or GMC or a an 80s Dodge 1 ton. Finding one with kingpins will make crossover steering much easier and Dodge and Chevy Dana 60s can be upgraded to 35 spline outer shafts. I remember reading something about a guy in New Jersey having several Dodge Dana 60s for $650 or maybe a little less.
05-29-2003, 09:47 AM
Or buy a Tow Truck (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2515543829&category=11752) :D :D
D60 front, 14 bolt rear, TH400/NP205, PTO/Hydraulic Pump and Winch. :D :D Yup I am Bragging tongue.gif tongue.gif
05-29-2003, 09:48 AM
Also check out www.boyceequipment.com (http://www.boyceequipment.com)
they have lots of stuff along those lines.
05-29-2003, 03:30 PM
i think i just read something about boyce but they have rebuilt stuff which means more $$$$. i'm not really sure that's the route i'd like to go but that package deal sure does seem to fit the bill. thanks for the help guys smile.gif
05-29-2003, 03:51 PM
05-29-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by orangecherokee:
sweet this sounds better as the posts go on. well, i think 14bolt it is for the rear now for the front. what vehicles do i look for? chevy vans for the 14bolt and what for the pass drop d60s?id avoid the van axle unless youre putting it in a j truck and want to run drum brakes. alot of j jruck guys will use the van or dually pickup axles cause they are wider and the drums will clear the leaf springs.
there are 4 basic widths of 14 bolts,and do not make the mistake of incuding the cab&chassis dually axle in the same category as the dually pickup. the C&C axles is the narrowest,and the dually pickup is the widest.WMS to WMS measurments are:
single wheel: 67.5"
dually pickup: 72"
use the SRW axle casue it is the most common,and most of the aftermarket brake kits are designed to use it.the brake kits designed ofr a SRW axle will require mods to work on a different width axle.
the C&C and SRW axles actually use the same housing,and same axleshafts,with the 2" per side difference in WMS to WMS being made up with the hub. the wheel mounts further inboard on the C&C hub.
if the 67.5" width bothers you,you could use the C&C,and still be able to find spare shafts easily,but youll have a harder time finding hubs,andyoull have to modify a disc brake kit to work with it. and youll prolly have to grind alot more off of the calipers to run a 15" wheel.on my rear discs,i hardly had to clearance the calipers at all with a 10" wide wheel with about 4" of back spacing.
there are a couple of pics at the bottom of this page that will give you an idea of the width of a SRW axle in a wag/chero:
further 14 bolt questions? smile.gif
[ May 30, 2003, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]
05-30-2003, 12:06 AM
DANA 60 for the front with pass side drop.... Like I said... the K30 P/U's had these 60's all day long.. they are 1ton rated or better.... and the nice thing about the one I got.... it had the 1310 series ujoint up front! Same as the FSJ.
I suggest going thru your axles completely once you get them.... just for good measure.
I had to replace a 14FF wheel bearing set and seal....
all new brakes and wheel cylinders.
have the drums and rotors cut
new brakelines (front and rear)
new E-brake lines
rebuild pass side king pin assembly of the D60
all for good measure mind you.... no sense putting it on to do it later.....
05-30-2003, 12:44 AM
Here is a small 'taste' of the info from Billavista's pages...
"The most desirable axles for heavy duty 4x4 use in stock form have open kingpin knuckles, 35 spline inner axles, 30 spline outer axles (stub shafts), and disc brakes. Later model Ford high pinion (HP) Dana 60s with balljoints instead of kingpins are also desirable axles, though many prefer the kingpin knuckles over the balljoints.
The undesirable front Dana 60 axles will not be covered by this article, and include:
74-75.5 Ford low pinion drivers side closed knuckle drum brake with 30 spline inners, 19 spline outers, small ujoints and weak knuckles.
75.5-77 Ford low pinion drivers side open knuckle disc brake 30 spline inners, 19 spline outers, outer knuckle spindle pilot hole is smaller than 78+ axle and is therefore notched to allow 1480 series U-joint tp pass through.
94+ Dodge drivers side low pinion CAD unit bearing hub 32 spline 1.31” coil sprung Dana 60s
Any other closed knuckle Dana 60, like those from a Jeep M715 that had coarse spline axles.
Common applications for the desirable axles include:
1977-87 K30 1 ton 4wd
All GM / Chevy versions were passenger side differential, regular rotation (low pinion) gears, disc brakes, 35 spline inners, 30 spline outers, internal style hubs, and kingpin knuckles.
All these Dodge versions were passenger side differential, regular rotation (low pinion) gears, disc brakes, 35 spline inners, 30 spline outers, and kingpin knuckles. 1979-89 versions had external style hubs, with the earlier versions with full-time NP203 Transfer cases having external drive flanges, and later models having external lockout hubs. The external lockout hub bolt pattern is 8 x 3.960". The 90-93 versions had internal style hubs just like the Chevy and lockout hubs. One caution with dodge applications, is you have to be careful to avoid the Dana 61 front axle. 1987-88 and 1991-93.5 Dodge D600 and D700 also came with Dana 61. More info on the Dana 61 later in the article.
1978-79 F-350 and some F-250 (Snofighter and High GVW packages)
1986-88 F-350 with dual rear wheels (DRW)
1988-91.5 F-350 with single rear wheels (SRW)
1992-95 F-350 (all) (balljoint)
1996.5-98 F-350 (all) (balljoint)
2000 F350/F450/F550 DRW (balljoint, metric 8x170mm wheel bolt pattern F350 / 8x220mm F450/F550, unit bearing hub)
2000.5 F350/F450/F550 DRW (balljoint, metric 8x170mm wheel bolt pattern F350 / 8x220mm F450/F550, unit bearing hub)
2001 F350 DRW (balljoint, metric 8x170mm wheel bolt pattern, unit bearing hub)
2001-02 F450/F550 DRW (balljoint, metric 8x220mm wheel bolt pattern, unit bearing hub)
2002 F250/F350 SRW (balljoint, metric 8x170mm wheel bolt pattern, unit bearing hub)
2002 F450/F550 DRW (balljoint, metric 8x220mm wheel bolt pattern, unit bearing hub)
All these Ford versions were drivers side differential, reverse-cut (high pinion) gears, and kingpin knuckles to 1991.5 and balljoints thereafter. Most Ford D60s are internal style hubs, but external type lockout versions do exist. 2000 and later Ford D60s have balljoints, a metric wheel lug pattern of 8x170mm up to F350 and 8x220mm for F450/F550, different brakes and spindles, sealed "unit-bearing hubs", hub-centric wheels, different length axleshafts from the earlier D60s, and larger Superduty specific tie rod ends. From 2000 on, the Ford D60 front axle is also known as the Model 60F2000+ or the 248M. 248 just happens to be the equivalent in millimeters of 9.75" - the diameter of the D60s ring gear.
1975 1300 camper Special
35 spline inner, 30 spline outer, external lockouts"
you can find just about everything you need on these 66+ pages of Dana 60 tech info
05-30-2003, 07:32 AM
WOW. thanks for that. this clearly sums it up.
05-30-2003, 08:52 AM
IF you haven't bookmarked Billavists'a page... You should... there is a TON of info in there that I just read about that was quite enlightening...
05-30-2003, 09:20 AM
Whats better , a Ford 9 in. or a 14 bolt
05-30-2003, 09:28 AM
oh my.... 14FF for sure.... size does matter....
05-30-2003, 03:44 PM
in what application?? i can see instances where a 9" would be better than a 14bolt. i assume you're talking FSJ and if you are then RB's got the answer ;)
05-30-2003, 04:47 PM
For rock crawling buggies the 9" is prefered for front and rear applications. But for our big tanks, a 14FF is much better.
05-30-2003, 11:51 PM
IMO a 9 inch is never better. you have to spend alot of $$ on custom parts to have any bigger than a 44-size shaft,and a pinion that isnt on the ground.
all you ever HAVE to do to a 14 bolt is bolt it in ;) a $50 14 bolt is still stronger than a $2500 9 inch.
vBulletin v3.5.4, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.