help with SOA perches!

[FYR WOOD]

OK...I did a SOA on my 88 Wag about a year ago, and everything has been fine up until this weekend. I knew that welding the perch to the cast pumpkin was tough, but when I did it, everything went fine so I didnt think anything of it. This weekend while wheelin I stood the truck up on its rearend with the front completely off the ground and when it came down, it came down pretty hard. I didnt think anything had happened, but when I was doing some backyard alignment this afternoon, I noticed that the drivers side perch had completely broken off the pumpkin and shifted slightly. It appears that the weld simply broke off of the cast pumpkin, like it had never been there, ie, theres no damage to the pumpkin at all. I'm planning on rewelding it this weekend, and was thinking that I would weld a plate to the side of the perch and weld that to the axletube to give it some more strength. What is the best way to prevent this from happening again? And by the way, I'm using a stick welder, 6013 rods at 120 amps. Should I heat the area up with a torch slightly first? Any help would be appreciated.

Scott

[Glenn_tx]

Was the underside of the weld smooth? So after you slammed the front down it still drove allright? Just curious. I did mine with the mig, the welds look very good but who really knows.

[FYR WOOD]

yep, the underside of the weld was smooth, like it didnt penetrate the cast at all. It looked good when I welded it. And yes, it drove fine. It wasnt until I looked closely under there today that I noticed it. Kinda scary though.

Scott

[tomd]

I would use 6011 rod instead of 6013, 6011 penetrates better. But you really should use a nickel rod, because of the high carbon content of cast, and it should be preheated also.

[orangecherokee]

i asked a welder and he told me 7018 would do it. was he just trying to get me to leave?

[Glenn_tx]

It is interesting. I did a ton of research before I did mine. I read all the warnings about welding to the pumpkin, but this is the first weld failure I've heard about. Course I don't hang out with a bunch of rockcrawlers.

[FYR WOOD]

7018 rods are a good pretty weld. I've heard that they have decent penetration, but from my experience, they are hard to weld with. I will probably go by the local welding shop tomorrow and ask them. I'd still like to know what everyone else has done, because I dont want to have to keep doing this.

Scott

[FYR WOOD]

Are nickel rods hard to weld with? After searching the archives, it seems that this is the best way to do it, just like 74Wag said.

Scott

[Tad]

In a nutshell...
Welding cast iron to mild steel should be done with a nickel rod. The ENi prefix is used to desegnate this rod (us old folks will also remember the EST prefix).
Lincoln FeroWeld is a trademark rod and available in many sizes. Other manufacturers have similar trade names.
This prevents migration of the cast iron into the weld pool and prevents cracking and embrittlement.
(yep, that last line is a quote but I can't remember the source)

EDIT: FYR WOOD, no, not hard, act a lot like 6010/6011, preheat and post het is not always necessary depending on the size (heat absorbing area) of the object. I would think a diff would require both, with no weight on the axle to minimize warpage.

[ April 29, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: tadsal ]

[FYR WOOD]

tadsal, do you know of a good supplier for the ENi rods? Do places like Tractor Supply carry them? Thanks for all the help fellas. Once again, lifesavers.

Scott

[Damage, Inc.]

I've spoken to alot of people on this (alot = 10+) and cast + ms + mig is okay...especially in the circumstances we use it, i.e., with u-bolts holding everything together.
Of course, don't take this as gospel!!

[Tad]

FYR WOOD,
I tried a little searching on their web site and did not find anything. I really think you need to find and drop into a local welding supplier, tell them your needs and they will fix you up with something from one of their product lines. You shouldn't have to buy a 50lb can, it is sold in smaller amounts also.

Damage, we've had this discussion (I think) before, we know folks wire feed SOA setups all the time, quite sucessfully too.
Would I weld a big chunk of cast to mild steel that way?
Not if I had to drive it any significant distance. But that's just me.
Feroweld and other trade names are also available in various wire sizes for your wire feed welders also.

[River Beast]

Nickel rods are what you should use.... they work well with high carbon metal like cast

[FYR WOOD]

alright...got some Nickel rods. They say "Nickel electrode 55" on them. Is this the right thing? I kinda inquired while I was at the welding shop and the old (and crazy) man there said that these rods were VERY hard to use. I think he lied or I'm a better welder than I thought, because they seem very easy and I got a whole rod's worth of pretty beads. My only question is, help me here tadsal and RB, I cant see the puddle like I could with 6010/6011. How do I know what kind of penetration I'm getting with these rods, and what sort of amps should I be running? The rod seemed easy to start and hold an arc at about 135. This was all on a chunk of mild steel. Thanks so much for all your help fellas.

Scott

[River Beast]

The puddle is much different on cast due to high carbon... I am no pro welder by any means... but I preheated the cast welded nice and slow for deep penetration and slow cooled by burrying it in hot sand.... slow cooling cast is recommended from the guys that told me how to do mine....

I have put mine to the test and never gave out... I bent the housing first!!!

[Damage, Inc.]

As an FYI on this--an easy to preheat is with a space heater. Works great to heat up and cool down, if you have an adjustable heater.

[River Beast]

Good Idea Damage....

[rockjeep44]

All good info guys, just thought I'd throw in one more thing that hasn't been mentioned. Turn the heat up on the welder, that'll get you some better penetration as well.
-Andrew

[FYR WOOD]

With this space heater thing...just put the space heater in front of the diff and let it heat up for a while? Maybe I dont understand. How hot should I preheat to? And what was everyone running there welders at when they did theirs?

Scott

[dnixon]

Yeah i think just put the space heater as close to the weld zone as possible and give an hour or more to heat up. The level of welding we are doing I don't think you have to really worry about getting it to the EXACT pre heat temp. Then when you are done put the heater back next to it and slowly(over the course of an hour or more) turn it down or back it away from the diff allowing the metal to cool slower... This allows the molecules in the metal to re orientent themselves making for a metal that is not as brittle.

[Woody Long]

With this welding talk, I hear Damage, Inc. say that MIG welding is O.K.? for SOA perches. As for preheating and slow cooling is that the now recommended procedures?

[FSJ Thing]

I did mine with ox acet and heated up the pumkin red hot. I was told by a friend that I should smack it with a hammer a couple of times to "get all that molecular sh** happening" whatever that means. This worked for me, my front axle worked all the way until I wrapped it around a rock in a snow drift. The weld never broke.

[Damage, Inc.]

I didn't say it was okay, I said I've spoken to quite a few who say that it's okay. Ask around...go to other Jeep boards and ask. ALOT of people have just welded mild steel to cast with MIG or stick. (He77, I know a hundred farmers that do this daily, on farm equipment, without problems.) But keep in mind, there's the possibility (however remote) that the weld could fail.
Now consider the consequences of this failure. What if you're going 80 mph down the I?
You just have to be careful. I personally would recommend using the above (nickel rod, preheat, post-heat) methods.

Steering stuff isn't to be messed with lightly.

[FYR WOOD]

I just finished weldin it up with the nickel rods...I will post some pics tomorrow. I dont think its ever comin off again! Worked well!

Scott

[FYR WOOD]

though not the prettiest welds in the world, I dont think I should have any more problems out of it.

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/perch.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/perch2.jpg

Scott

[River Beast]

That is a good job... looks like you mad a couple passes... good idea.... I did mine like that...

I ahve done one with nickel rod and one with a mig... neither gave me andy signs of weakness

[TexasJ10]

Todd, Did you use a nickle wire in that mig weld?

[River Beast]

no I used regular flux core with the heat WAY up and slow feed... ran 3 passes.

[jode]

I thought I read in a welding book that the key to welding cast was to cut grooves along the path of the weld prior to welding...then also all the preheating stuff as previously mentioned...anybody else ever heard of this? Where is Tadsal?

[Tad]

Originally posted by jode:
I thought I read in a welding book that the key to welding cast was to cut grooves along the path of the weld prior to welding...then also all the preheating stuff as previously mentioned...anybody else ever heard of this? Where is Tadsal?Never heard that Jode but that does not mean it's not true. They might have been refering to joint preperation. Typically you would want to bevel (or groove) the edges on anything thicker than 3/8" for SMAW or 1/4" for GMAW.
The pic's look great, I see a little bit of undercut in the first one but nothing I would worry about. I think, overall this is a pretty safe mod since it all get's clamped together with some nice big ubolts when you are done. It's not like we are hanging 500 lbs of axle in the air and then standing underneath it.
EDIT: I'm here in spirit folks, when I can be, just really getting my butt whipped at work finishing off the school year.

[ May 09, 2003, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: tadsal ]

[FSJ Thing]

Hey tad, when my friend told me to hit the red hot cast iron with a hammer to "get all that molecular $*** happening" what the heck was he talking about? Was he just talking out his bunghole?

[Damage, Inc.]

Friends don't do that, do they??!?? :D

(Especially not Jeep friends!!)

[TexasJ10]

WagoThing, there has been a lengthy post on the Home Shop Machinist board about welding cast. Several people have indicated that they strike the first pass weld with a pointed hammer to drive it into the cast for better bonding and then make the second or third pass normally. I guess you would also know quickly whether your weld was any good. They preheat before each weld and keep it heated for several hours after the weld, but slowly decrease the amount of heat the whole time. Many do not use nickle rods for this procedure because they feel the nickle is too hard. There is one guy over there that welds up new gear teeth with the method described above and hasn't had one break yet. He says it takes a full day to complete due to the constant need to preheat and the short working time after the heat is removed.

[jode]

The thing abnout molecules is that they are always doing their thing in there...for instance....what is the dif between cast and forged? Well, in cast stuff, all the molecules are aligned in a single plane (that is how they are when they get poured into the form)....in forged, all the molecules are bent in their alignment so they follow the contours of the object (this is done my beating the H*** out of it with a hammer or by exerting extreme force.) The difference is minimal and seemingly insignificant, but the result is measurable...everyone knows that cast is weaker than forged....to visualize this...think of the grain of a wooden board...then think of a new kind of wood where the grain follows the contour of the object in all directions and planes....it would be much stronger...

That being said, I think your whacking it with a hammer thing is to allow any molecules that are under strain to relax BEFORE it cools off...that way, they aren't frozen under strain forever when it cools....it may seem stupid, but it may have a submicrocopic real-world application....

Of course....I don't really know what I am talking about and I am only spurting off stuff I have read, so I could have confused something.... ;)

[Tad]

Originally posted by WagoThing:
Hey tad, when my friend told me to hit the red hot cast iron with a hammer to "get all that molecular $*** happening" what the heck was he talking about? Was he just talking out his bunghole?Nope, that is the foundation behind "Forge Welding", it's what built our nations first wagon wheels, rails and ships. Your friend was talking straight.

Originally posted by jode:
...That being said, I think your whacking it with a hammer thing is to allow any molecules that are under strain to relax BEFORE it cools off...that way, they aren't frozen under strain forever when it cools....it may seem stupid, but it may have a submicrocopic real-world application....

Of course....I don't really know what I am talking about and I am only spurting off stuff I have read, so I could have confused something....That's pretty accurate, why are you not teaching?

[jode]

I am teaching....other FSJers.... ;)

[Stolen76]

Just an FYI on the nickle rods... Home Depot was carrying them in most stores, but are now clearing them out. Had them 70% off last week when I was there.

[Damage, Inc.]

You're kidding...I just paid $33 for a pound or nickel rod!!

[FYR WOOD]

I paid $18 for 10 rods!

Scott