Using Waggy axle for SAS

[Desert Rat]

Boy am I glad I stumbled across this board!

No, I don't have an FSJ (but I do like them - especially Honchos and Gladiators), but I do have a Nissan Frontier that I'll be swapping in an 5.13 geared, ARB locked '82 waggy D44 front axle. I have my IFS locked, but it's just a matter of time before it grenades all over a trail somewhere, as Arizona and Utah rock crawling is hard on vehicles.

Was hoping I could tap the expertise here on some questions:

What are some good manufacturers to look for front lift springs? (probably 4") Do the rear lift springs have a softer rate than the fronts? Do any aftermarket companies sell them in just pairs?

How long are waggy springs eye to eye, and is the center pin in the middle, or is it offset to the front or rear - if so, how much? (would like info on front and rear if possible)

Any thoughts on the durability of stock steering components? Any weak links?

What is the weight of a Waggy on the front axle?

What length shackles are you guys using to get good flex with lift springs?

Lots of questions from a newb, I know, but any help is greatly appreciated.

For those of you who would like a look at what guys do with "the other" Japanese truck, visit us at www.nissan4wheelers.com (http://www.nissan4wheelers.com) . Waggy axles are getting snatched up in yards all over the country to go into Nissans due to their width, driver side drop, and correct lug pattern.

[netbear]

Using FSJ parts on an import is prohibited on
this board.

[FSJ Thing]

Any of your buddy's in Colorado want mine? I'm swapping mine for bigger badder Ferd axles and I'd like to see my jeep axles go to someone who'll use em, even though we normally frown on wag butchering. I'm glad that you didn't come on here and ask something like "I saw a pristine Cherokee widetrack the other day and I was wondering, should I chop it up to beef up my Suzuki Samuri?"

As for your questions, I don't know any of the answers. Most of us are still running stock springs, like me even though I got 11" of lift. As far as ordering springs, go to www.bjsoffroad.com (http://www.bjsoffroad.com) . They specialize if FSJ replacement parts. Aside from that, I hope somebody else chimes in with the rest of the answers and it's good to see you around. chances are that within a year you'll be selling your nissan and buying an FSJ! tongue.gif :D

[Desert Rat]

Ha, I expected some ribbing. The axle I got came off a trashed waggy in a wrecking yard. No loss there. And technically, the truck isn't an import since it was built in Tennessee just like every Nissan truck in the US since 1986. That makes it more American than most Fords and Chevys.

It'd be a crime to cut up a good widetrack Cherokee.

As for selling the Nissan....nah. I've been tweaking and wrenching on this thing making a wheeler out of it for a few years now....could never sell it. Especially now that I have a 4:1 Tcase in it.

All that being said, I'd have a really hard time passing up a good deal on a stepside Honcho....

Anyways, if anyone else has the answers, that'd be great.

[ May 22, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Desert Rat ]

[89grand]

Originally posted by Desert Rat:

It'd be a crime to cut up a good widetrack Cherokee.Not to mention a narrow track Cherokee, a Wagoneer, a Wagoneer Limited, a Super Wagoneer and especially a Grand Wagoneer.

[tuck]

I guess I should be banned from the board for hacking the junk out of my '72 waggy then? :rolleyes:

I think you should look at what the little jeepers are doing with waggy front axles because their rigs are closer in size and weight to your rig. I have seen lots of YJ's use waggy front springs and axles.. the stock springs give 2.5" of lift (about 7" with SOA) and they use Rancho 4044 springs to get 4" of lift (~9" with SOA)... The 4044 springs are actually 2.5" lift springs for Wagoneers.

Another option for springs is F-150 rear springs. They are often desirable because of their offset. I believe they are 57" eye to eye 32" at one end and 25" at the other. I don't remember off the top of my head what waggy front springs are eye to eye.

I have seen quite a few guys running waggies or F150's in spring over, shackle reversed configuration with about a 7" shackle at about a 45 degree angle... and this seems to provide a pretty good droop.

If you haven't already been there, www.pirate4x4.com (http://www.pirate4x4.com) is a pretty good rockcrawling site with lots of pics and information. good luck.

[Desert Rat]

Actually, the guys on Pirate referred me over here.

Are you saying that the waggy springs are about the same length as the YJ's, or are they moving spring hangers back?

My truck curbs at over 4000 lbs, even with a 4 banger, mostly due to the extra armor underneath and a campershell out back.

Thanks for the good info, Tuck.

[talntar]

Originally posted by Desert Rat:
Actually, the guys on Pirate referred me over here.

Are you saying that the waggy springs are about the same length as the YJ's, or are they moving spring hangers back?

My truck curbs at over 4000 lbs, even with a 4 banger, mostly due to the extra armor underneath and a campershell out back.

Thanks for the good info, Tuck.well you are aproaching the weight of a fsj
with fsj axles you will be very close.does the 4 banger move it ok?

[ May 22, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: talntar ]

[Desert Rat]

Does OK with 5.14 gears, a 5 speed, and 32" tires. After the SAS I will likely only run 33's. The truck came stock with 4.625:1 gearing, but I swapped those out a while back. I also swapped to the larger V6 model axles - the Nissan rear has a 9.2" ring gear and 33 spline 1.31" axle shafts, so it's solid. In the dirt the Calmini 3.92:1 tcase gears take over. Crawl ratio right now is about 72:1.

Kinda what I figured on the weight thing. I was thinking YJ springs might be too soft and would sag under the weight of the truck. At the same time, I do need flex for Arizona trails....Would be looking for the softest FSJ springs out there.

[ May 22, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Desert Rat ]

[tuck]

don't use YJ springs, they will definitely be too soft.

If I were you I would use whatever is most readily available. Wagoneer or F150 springs would be my first choices.

The wagoneer springs are a bit longer than YJ springs and the offset is different. On a YJ the wagoneer springs add wheelbase and create lift.

I think most YJ guys use the factory mounts, and the effect is a larger shackle angle, which helps to soften the ride and increase droop, but limits the amount of compression. I'm not sure if this makes sense.

[Stuka]

Better hope andrew doesnt see this thread lol...

I would definately use a heavier rated spring, not YJ/CJ springs. You will have to do some mods when you take the IFS off. As I know on some toyotas they use the front crossmember as the engine mount also. Not sure on the nissans, would have to go outside and look at mine. As I dont remember for sure (although its a 91 hardbody, and 2wd).

[Navajo]

I actually have a guy that want to do the same thing to a Pathfinder. We are gonna use a Dana 44 out of a '78 F-150 with a 9" out back though.

[Tad]

Originally posted by tuck:
...I guess I should be banned from the board for hacking the junk out of my '72 waggy then?...HELPEDODDLE NO!!!
Most of that stuff we have is crap anyway :D

Edit: Sorry, I did just sell an '68 2 piece 44 rear and a 27 front to a scout 800 fanatic. Told him to get a '76 - '79 setup, go figure.

[ May 22, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: tadsal ]

[scotty]

my compliments for building something different. i see alotta stuff on the trails,but very few nissans. specially ones with a solid front axle :cool:

im glad people are not harassing ya too much. another guy posted a simila question awhile back,and i was embarrassed by some of the responses he got

eventually ill be helping a friend repacle the IFS in his isuzu trooper with a NT waggy axle,so you wont get any crap from me ;)

while i love my FSJ,not all of them are worth saving,and no reason why other rigs shouldnt be revivied/upgraded with their parts.

factory FSJ front leaf springs are about 45" long,it has been while since i measured. as for a spring manufactured,id highly reccomend tuff country EZ ride springs. my friend has a 6" spring lift on a 77 GMC and his 33s rub the corners of the fenders at full stuff! :eek: i was som impressed with them,im running tuff countrys on my grand wag.great ride,good articulation. only prollem is they dont make a FSJ spring,so im using 73+ chebby lift springs wich are the same length,but move the axle forward 1 inch,due to a slightly different pin offset.the FSJ springs have the pin perfectly centered.

since you are making mounts anyway,you could use a chebby spring,or a replacement YJ spring. tuff country makes stock height,2 and 4" yj springs ifn i remember correctly

if you wasnt to stick with a FSJ made spring,aliot of the guys like rustys springs,and the skyjacker softrides. heard lots of good stuff about both of them.

just stay away from rancho. the aforementioned GMC never had the 33s come close to the fenders with a very stiff rancho 4" spring.general concensus is that rancho springs are STIFF.

a complete front dana 44(with brakes and steerign components) i read in one of the mags weighs in around 240 lbs.

the steering is pretty beefy,and no reason you cant use it if its in good shape.i made my steerign from heim joints,but ive read alot of good arguments to stick with a tie rod end,rather than a spherical rod end,specially if you drive it alot on the street. big advantge of heim joints is theyre super ez to work with

if you spring the axle over,several people make steering arms for high steering setups,but youll need to track down a chebby driver side,and an older flat top pass side to drill and tap

further spring or axle questions?

[ May 23, 2003, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[FSJ Thing]

Originally posted by scotty:


im glad people are not harassing ya too much. another guy posted a simila question awhile back,and i was embarrassed by some of the responses he got
Yeah, but that guy wanted to demolish a perfectly good RUNNING FSJ for parts in his crummy dime a duzzin POS. This Desert Rat fella wan't to bring pieces of dead FSJs back to life in an import that isn't so different from an FSJ as far as popularity goes.

Desert Rat, the reason that a Ferd, Chebby, or Dudge is more American than a Nissan is because the net profit from it's products, even though assembled in Mexico or Canada, comes back here to the USA, while the profits from Nissans sales go back to Japan. Also, there plant is largely automated, as most Auto plants are, with as few people as possible on the pay role. This is not just Nissan, it's all major industry plants, but that's one of the reasons we love our FSJs, they remind us when Union labor stood for quality, and gas was a $0.65 a gallon. I'm not bagging on Nissan, just in case it sounds like I am. I'm glad that you and your club support another underdog in the aftermarket industry and anymore, in this country of heated debates about stupid issues, you're doing it for the same reasons we do. I still think you'll have an FSJ within a year. tongue.gif

[Panther]

I'm glad you're not getting bashed as well but I don't think the Nissan statement could be answered any better than what WagoThing said, good stuff.

I have done a few SOAs now and each one is different. When you do one, springs become more of a "wear" item and you will do more tweeking with adding a leaf here or taking another out. That said, you are better off with stock springs unless you really need the lift. I like the idea of wagoneer front springs, they are 7 leafs, soft, flex nice and should hold a little arch in you rig.

[Desert Rat]

Thanks for all the replies, guys!!! GREAT info. Yes, I'm aware Nissan is still a Japanese company (even worse that it's 37% owned by Renault - EEK! The French!) Point is you run what you got and I can't beat the Nissan for reliability, plus I know this truck inside and out.

Will have to get hold of some stock springs to see where my axle would end up being. I will most likely stay spring under but wanted the lift springs for better approach angle. I can also keep the stock waggy steering this way too rather than going out and dropping $ on hi-steer and flat top knuckles. My biggest concern is the front driveline angle. Calmini, a Nissan aftermarket company, just did a similar swap in a HB truck but went SOA. The driveline bound at full droop even with a 42 degree CV on the tcase end. His solution was to cut and rotate the pinion up. I'd rather not do that, as I'm trying to do a budget swap. I do have the ability to move the axle forward a bit - I have no problem taking a sawzall to the fenders (again).

Brings me to another question. On your trucks, with stock springs and the weight of the vehicle sitting on them, if you drew a straight line from spring eye to spring eye, how much below that line is the lowest part of the arch? That'll give me an idea on what springs I need. I want to keep it pretty low, but I also need to be able to clear at least a 33" tire.

Thanks again - you guys have been very helpful.

BTW, here's a pic of my junk crossing Golden Crack at EJS last month...
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UAAAAPoYTwowFIukkdNVrlE*4!5x8dGgwRzUNRhwO1ZDsJ4xu eu83wl4rxazxgRUIlZoapCIFUFYE5bJpWyd7Vazz2qbzXXmcHo !YZuoOqSNkjEAKXy6FAAAAAAAAAAA/moab2.jpg

[ May 23, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Desert Rat ]

[FSJ Thing]

Actually, my front springs, even when it was spring under, where dern near perfectly flat. If anything, they arched up a little. With no weight on them, they arch down alot, and your Nissan isn't quite as heavy, especially with a 4 banger. For comparison, Our 360s weight more than a 500 caddy. I just learned this a few weeks ago on another one of our threads. With no weight(even though it's no the question you asked) my worn out stock spriings arch about 7 inches. I have a pic at http://fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/Thingbutt.jpg you cancheck out. Hope this helps some!

(Subliminal message: buy an FSJ :D )

[Stuka]

Because of the way a FSJ has its springs mounted, stock springs are almost totally flat. The frame bends up just behind the front tires, then the shackle is at front so that lower that mount down. I am thinking your gona wanna get some lift springs.

Also, are you going to use a D44 rear as well? Or are you gona keep the stock axle? The bolt paterns are the same between the two, but you would have a stronger front axle then rear hehe. Also the gear ratio's are slighter different between the two.

[Desert Rat]

Thanks Wagothing and Stuka. Sounds like lift springs will definitely be the way to go if I want any up travel.

I'm keeping the stock rear axle. It's actually stronger than a D44 - read from my previous post:

9.2" ring gear, 33 spline 1.31" axle shafts and a removable third, just like a Ford 9"

I have aftermarket 5.142 gears in the back and will have 5.13's in the front. That's close enough to be insignificant.

[Stuka]

Ahh ok. I was thinkin it may have been the small rear end used in the hard body's. I think mine has like a 7.5" ring gear or something.

Are you gona go with the shackle in front, or with it in back? As that will make a diferance in what arch you will need in your springs.

[scotty]

for whatever its worth,i am still SUA. we get into alot of silly off camber stuff,and i wanted to keep the CG as low as possible,so i didnt want the amt of lift a SOA would provide.

i still run a standard non-CV shaft with a 4" lift spring,and i have no prollems with that,nor does it affect my approach angle,si i think the decision to stay SUA and fit tires with a sawzall and minimal lift is a good one. of course,my opinion may be biased,as i dont have any fenders at all at this point ;)

a quick pic:
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/cutfront1.JPG

click the nightcrawlers link in my sig to see some more pics of my junk

[ May 24, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[BIG BAD JON]

Hey Desert Rat! I go by Jonx4x4 on the N4W board. This is my home though. Got lots of "family" here.

[Desert Rat]

Hey Jon, how goes it!

Stuka, will probably shackle it in the back. What do you think?

[BIG BAD JON]

Pretty good... the one page list of stuff to do to the Patrol just gets smaller every day! :D

[Stuka]

If you do a rear shackle, then your going to have to either make the front mounts sit a few inches below the frame, or get some big degree shims. As since wag springs are ment for a front shackle, the axle's spring pads are ment for this setup. Unless you go with a spring over axle, then you can put the pads at the angle which would best work. A spring over gives a FSJ 7" of lift over stock using flat springs. So if you wanted to use stock springs, this may be a way to go. Although it may come out higher then the rear. Hard to tell without lining everything up.