Love my MBZ Diesel... swap ponderings.

[Max Power]

617 - 5 cylinder, non-turbo, 120k miles. With proper valve adjust and additives it accelerates briskly and does not smoke, and is the ultimate in toughness and longevity.

I wish I had one in my jeep, possibly with a propane suppliment. It wouldn't be a rocket or anything, but it would be perfect for my needs.

Anybody ever seen this sort of thing?

I wonder how I'd mate it to my 727 or better yet a t-18? Heck, does the engine output rotate in the correct direction?

I'd probably re-use the benz radiator, engine-oil cooler, motor mounts, fuel tank, wiring harness, instrument panel as well.

Hopefully the oil-filter housing would clear the steering and at 26" don't think this engine is too tall. But at 500+ lbs, its pretty heavy

mercedesshop.com diesel discussion has done for my 300D what this forum did for my FSJ.

google links... maybe mountable to a GM tranny?

617 diesel to a landcruiser...
http://4x4labs.newmythology.org/viewtopic.php?t=10

cummins6bt into a Landie and pics of a MBZ 617
http://www.collegeinternetsolutions.com/cisautoweb/dtlc/kennyd.html

Cheers,
Robert

[bigun]

grimgaunt,Hara is thinking about this same swap except he is planning on using the mercedes tranny(I think he has a manual set up) and a devorced mount transfer case

[grimgaunt]

already fabbed motor mounts, tranny tunnel is fine.
The cast iron 4-speed has a 4:1 1st gear, not too bad.
The benz radiator fits in there like it was made for a jeep smile.gif

I have had the engine/tranny combo in there twice to check for fit, need to weld in the mounts and fab a cross member next weekend.
Hope to bring it to Ouray in 2 mo

The transfer case is the problem, only divorced unit commonly available that'll take decent torque is the NP205,

but low range on that is pathetic (1.96:1), only other solution is to run a divorced Dana20 and put in a teralow kit. Pricey ...

Another solution is to put in a Stazworks doubler that mates a NP203 gearbox to a Dana300. Gives twin stick, and 1:1, 2:1, 2.6:1 and 5.2:1 ranges
However finding a divorced NP203 (they came in early 70's ford Hi-boy trucks ) is proving almost impossible

[ May 15, 2005, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: grimgaunt ]

[joe]

Grimgaunt,
That's were I've come to a stop at...the tcase options using the MB trans. Planning a 240D swap into a CJ8. I have room for a divorced case (but prolly not a doubler too). I think the 205 for my needs is a bit overkill for the 240. I'm not building a crawler just a 3rd world crappy road/monsoon season rig so I don't need all those flavors of low range either. I've got access to a dead MB trans and if I can come up with a trashed D300 for measurements I may just take them both to a shop and see if an MB trans/D300 adapter can be made. Prolly expensive(I'd have a spare made) but I wouldn't have to buy another tcase, doubler, another trans etc. 4x4Labs is supposedly working on a MB 300D to Chev trans adapter but that'll be (if it ever happens) some pretty exotic stuff like custom flywheel, bellh etc.
If you have any other ideas on the MB trans to any pass side drop tcase please let me know. I would like to use my D300 but open for suggestions without going the doubler route. Thanks.

[FSJeeper]

I used to own MB's with the diesel and they are the ultimate in reliablity and fuel economy.

I am almost positive the Unimog diesel optioned flywheels, bellhousings and trans and tcases will bolt right onto the 5 cylinder. If you shop, these are dirt cheap and very heavy duty. There is an option for a 20 speed unit and super low tcase with like a 2000 to 1 gearing and all kinds of options closer to reality. There are also several sutomatic/tcase options.

Also, you can get 300HP out of the 300D without hurting reliability and increasing fuel economy.

[grimgaunt]

I am also doing this in a 1980 CJ7, there its easier, since I am putting in a 240D 4-cyl normally aspirated diesel (72 hp, 120 ft-lb) a suzuki samurai divorced case is more than adequate for that and they have 6:1 lo-gear set options for $500 or so.

its the waggie that needs a heavier duty t-case solution.

[joe]

Isn't the Zuk box geared 1.5 or some such in "high" range? The ones I've found weren't geared 1:1 in high range but actually geared lower and that'd get my 3.54's up to 5.xx something which I don't want for street use.

[joe]

Max, grim, FSJ'r et al...I'm out'a here in the morning for a month at least(no net access) so if any of you have any ideas, opinions, flames whatever about mating an MB trans to whatever pass side tcase "please" email me(I'll get it in a month). Divorced would be convenient but I'm open to any options other than doublers, lower than 1:1 high ranges etc. As grim mentioned the divorced 205 is overkill for a 240D motor but at this point is still prolly my best/easiest option. See above for the CJ's planned use. In any case...thank you.

edit: on a side note if I do have to look for a 205 what year/model donor rig would I look for for a divorced and pass side drop 205? Again...please email me. Thanks.

[ May 16, 2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: -joe ]

[bigun]

passenger side drop 205s would be in chevy or dodge

[joe]

Charlie I'll make a note of Chev/Dog pass side. Thanks. Any idea what era would be "divorced"?

[bigun]

not right off hand I think I may have found a dodge 203 divorced for Hara though. Soit sounds like your going back out on the pond?

[Crazy_Jeepman]

Originally posted by bigun:
passenger side drop 205s would be in chevy or dodgeIH as well ;)

[bigun]

Originally posted by Crazy_Jeepman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bigun:
passenger side drop 205s would be in chevy or dodgeIH as well ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I forgot!!!!!

[grimgaunt]

Bigun,
let me know, I am excited, looks like this idea may come thru after all.

ps- need to look at our property in Cloudcroft and Timberon, may head out that way this summer,

[ May 17, 2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: grimgaunt ]

[bigun]

THe kid is still trying to decide if he wants to sell or not I'll let you know as soon as I hear more!

[Max Power]

wow, great info, Sounds like alot of people who are smarter than me have thought a lot about this....

I would really prefer not to mess with a divorced t-case and my driver drop front axle etc. It sounds like a can of worms that I'd prefer not to open.

I'd prefer to expend energy on mating the 617 to a t-18 (preferred) or 727. is it possible to chop and weld 2 different bellhousings into one? (assuming they are compatible? Or would it never stand up to the torque? or is it impossible for reasons I have not even considered??

thanks,
Robert

[Cecil14]

It would be VERY difficult to get everything to line up square trying to create a bellhousing like that. One think you might be able to do however, depending on the depth of the factory mercedes b/h, is make an adapter piece for between the b/h and the tranny. Just find the tranny with the longest input shaft that you can to give yourself the length you need.

aa

[grimgaunt]

standard MBZ 4-speeds came with an adapter ring to mate the older bellhousings to newer alloy trannys (ie- mate a pre 1977 engine to a post 1977 tranny), use that as a template for the MB side and use a regular T-18 bellhousing for the other side and voila an adapter. In fact I might do this.

[FSJeeper]

Would be easier to use a MB Unimog trans with adapted doubler or NP205.

[Mikel]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57574

[Sycho15]

Well, I haven't built a new engine for Timex yet... I suppose a 300SD could be put on the list with the stroked 4.0. However, I'd need an NP-pattern 32-spline NP205 to go behind the Ford NP435 trans. With twin trannies I wouldn't need a better low range than 2:1. I could still get 242.75:1 with everything shifted down. With 2.72 gears in the axles and maybe 33" ATs, I could still get excellent road speeds with a slow-turning engine.

Yesterday in the junkyard I spotted a Mercedez with a complete 300SD in it. How expensive are these engines to rebuild?

I'd like to have a diesel just so I can run free veggie oil instead of $2.25/gal 87octane gasoline...

[ May 24, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Sycho15 ]

[FSJeeper]

Originally posted by Sycho15:
Well, I haven't built a new engine for Timex yet... I suppose a 300SD could be put on the list with the stroked 4.0. However, I'd need an NP-pattern 32-spline NP205 to go behind the Ford NP435 trans. With twin trannies I wouldn't need a better low range than 2:1. I could still get 242.75:1 with everything shifted down. With 2.72 gears in the axles and maybe 33" ATs, I could still get excellent road speeds with a slow-turning engine.

Oh man, with the gearing you are going to have, the MB diesel would be perfect! Probably get 25+ MPG in a FSJ. (I used to get 30 on the highway in a 300D)

With that kind of gearing, you could spin the crap out of your wheels without winding the motor up much. So it would work well in sand and mud which are generally not the strong points of a diesel in those environments.
Yesterday in the junkyard I spotted a Mercedez with a complete 300SD in it. How expensive are these engines to rebuild?

I'd like to have a diesel just so I can run free veggie oil instead of $2.25/gal 87octane gasoline...

[grimgaunt]

VERY expensive to rebuild. Pistons are 100 a pop, liners (dry sleeve) are needed as well.
However bottom end is rarely the problem on these, usually head work and timing set replacement plus crank polishing (nitrided cranks) are required.
About $1200 for a complete rebuild if you do it all yourself.
$3800 for a rebuilt longblock from metric motors

[Beaver State Bogger]

On the diesel topic...

Anyone know what a Cummins 5.9 would do to my stock '75 Cherokee 3-speed/D-20 combo? Could it handle it? I got a 258 at the moment, bone stock.

Also, Cummins built the 4BT which went into bread trucks and the like, supposedly with mounts identical to a 350. Any idea about 350 adapters? Anyone done the 4 cyclinder in a FSJ?

Anything helps. I'm more interested in reliability and mileage at the moment, and I imagine the four cyclinder would be a better match for my suspension.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by grimgaunt:
...use that as a template for the MB side and use a regular T-18 bellhousing for the other side and voila an adapter. In fact I might do this.That sounds like it, but is the housing cast/weldable?

[Sycho15]

Beaver State Bogger- this thread is for the Mercedes Diesel engines. If you want information on Cummins diesel engines then do a search in the Gen. Tech. forum and you will find that a few members have done the 4BT swap. Some others have done 6.2 or 6.5 swaps as well.

Where can I find complete engine rebuild kits for the Mercedes 300SD?

[grimgaunt]

why do this rebuild when good used engines are available cheap ????

[Sycho15]

Find me a good cheap 300 Turbo Diesel less than an hour from 34205.

[ May 25, 2005, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Sycho15 ]

[grimgaunt]

look on EBAY, about $400 is what I routinely find them for. Lots in the Tampa, St.Petes area or buy a junker with an engine for even less and strip it, pays for the engine

[ohioj20]

How is this going? My dad almost went this route, but the 4x4labs.com hadn't even started on ther GMC adaptor, so he followed my lead and went with a 6.2 diesel.

[Sycho15]

My friend is a machinist, and will be helping me with the twin-tranny adapters. An adapter bellhousing shouldn't be hard for him at all....

[Beaver State Bogger]

Apologies guys. Good to hear someone's done the 4BT.

I've got a Unimog-nut for a friend who suggested the MBZ 5 cyl swap for my ailing 258, but as you all know, it may prove difficult and spendy.

However, he swears by MBZ diesels. I look forward to hearing how it all goes.

[MagnumP.I.]

From my expirence MBZ diesel engines are expensive to rebuild, and repair. They are great engines, and super reliable, but when they start going south the party is over. This is just my opinion here, but I think you would be happier long term with a Cummins 4 or 6. The cost for a Cummins 4 rebuild kit is under $1000. That's for everything. They are available with Turbo 400's and SM 465's out of bread trucks. I have one that I am mating up to a Spicer 3053A out of a M35 6x6 for a different truck.
A Cummins 6 will fit and they are even more common than the 4.
You might also think about a Isuzu 4 or 6 out of a NPR truck.
I put a Isuzu 6BD1T that had a SM465 attached to it in my M715. The only reason I went with the Isuzu is because it was local, inexpensive, and it had the tranny on it.
I'm working a divorced NP 205 from a '75 IHC behind it, spring over, and 2.5 ton GMC axles front and back out of a post war 6x6. The 205 was free as were the 6x6 axles so I got fairly lucky there. I'm just building a silly 4x4 rig on the cheap.
Not trying to dissuade you from the MBZ, just a voice of reason and a little diesel expirence.

www.imageevent.com/rockinjwranch/1968kaiserM715 (http://www.imageevent.com/rockinjwranch/1968kaiserM715)

[grimgaunt]

agree with you, however, when a MBZ 617 series goes south it is usually over 300 kmi, comparable to a cummins.
I have 7 diesels (average 200 kmi, max - 495 kmi) and I have sold at least 4 with over 300 kmi

[grimgaunt]

Heres a description of what I was suggesting

http://seriestrek.com/engine.html

[Max Power]

can't remember where I saw this link, but it is extremely cool, you can download a simple CAD program and design your own tranny/t-case adapter

www.emachineshop.com (http://www.emachineshop.com)

[grimgaunt]

1 offs are expensive and how many tries do you want to do until you get it right

[bigun]

Hey Hari did you get the transfer case and did woodyhank AKA Lisa get a hold of you?

[grimgaunt]

yes to both , thanks
Havent heard back from WoodyHank after I sent a detailed email

[bigun]

Cool can't wait to see the write up with pics!! she gets on very sporadicle. Thanks for helping her out!

[Biskit]

It's definitely an interesting swap. I came upon IFSJA because I own a CJ-10a. This is the short tug that the Air Force has used to tow munitions and planes around since 1985. Mine came with a Nissan SD33 diesel motor, TF727 tranny, NP208 transfer case and rear Dana 70 axle. With all the research I've done, even though it LOOKS a lot like a CJ, it has more in common with the FSJs than anything. It seems, my frame is shared, but just chopped down to be shorter.

Anyway, back to the diesel discussion, I would think that the SD33/TF727/NP208 combo would be a fairly easy swap even if it didn't give you a ton of power. Older IH Scouts had the SD33 motor in them some with TF727 tranny and others with T19s. The later ones had the SD33T version with the turbo that had more power as well. I've been very happy with my outfit as a daily driver, and I'm slowly getting enough done to it to be a decent off road rig.

HTH

[grimgaunt]

werent the CJ10 tugs locked in 4-lo permanently ?

[joe]

grimgaunt, I've access to a 300 motor(low compression) for near free and will rebuild it. Where you getting your parts from...Rusty's or others? Thanks.

[grimgaunt]

Rustys mostly, from time to time I give business to the folks that host the http://www.mercedesshop.com forums
I use lots of used parts from parts cars that I have, these cars were built to be rebuilt and used for many years and other than mounts, shocks and bushings, most of the other hard parts are fine to reuse.

[Biskit]

Originally posted by grimgaunt:
werent the CJ10 tugs locked in 4-lo permanently ?"permanent" is debateable. It was in 4-lo for gear reduction and the shifter and linkage was not there, but I just unbolted the side, and all the shifter parts were there so I was able to put it into 2-hi for daily driving. Getting the linkage working is also on my list of things to do.