spring lift trick (NEW UPDATE)

[AJ Johnson]

OK guys, I've been seeing little bits and pieces here and there about adding leaves to a spring pack for a lift.. can someone give me some detail about how this works, and what to do to make it work? I want to add about 3" suspension lift to my J3000 to accomodate the 37" tires that are going on it.. I will also be fabbing a 2" body lift to go with it..

[ August 04, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: AJ Johnson ]

[AJ Johnson]

ttt

[River Beast]

This can work.... but the ride will be much stiffer...

All you do is get AAL's (preferably full length) and place them in the pack in the appropriate order (longest to smallest)... now if you are talking throwing in OEM used leafs in .. forget it.... you will have to add a BUNCH to get what you want unless you go to a donor vehicle ( not sure which to use, but like GM/Ford)... the drawback is the harsher ride and you will most likely have to change ubolts if you go with mulitple leafs as you thicken the packs.

It is fairly simple with 2 C Clamps and common hand tools and realy doen't have to take them off the vehicle to perform this..

1. After you have the axle off and the leaf spring hanging, place a C clamp on EACH side of the springpin TIGHT.

2. remove the springpin bolt however you can... some will unbolt... some will be rusted solid....

3. Slowly loosen th C clamps to let the tension off the leafs....

4. Place the new leaf in the sequence of longest to shortest and align the leafs with a new springpin bolt.

5. Once they are aligned... tighten the C lamps evenly on both side close as possible tot he springpin as to compress the springs together....

6. tighten up the new springpin and remove the c clamps....

[AJ Johnson]

about how many springs does it take per inch of lift?

[Cecil14]

Originally posted by AJ Johnson:
about how many springs does it take per inch of lift?That's really not the way to do it. You will gain lift from the thickness of the leaves, generally a 1/4" or so, but you won't gain much lift from the leaves themselves. It would be easier to either get the rancho 2.5" add-a-leaf or get a 3" lift with new springs. I believe rough country makes a 3" lift...

Anthony

[River Beast]

Maybe I wasn't clear enuf... but I was saying NOT to go with multiple leafs.... go with AAL's (2.5" is the max for a good set) or buy a suspension system

[Cecil14]

Originally posted by AJ Johnson:
about how many springs does it take per inch of lift?To gain 3" of lift using just suplimental stock leaves it would take ~12 extra leaves to get you there. At about 1/4" each, 3/.25=12 Maybe a few less if you gain some because of spring arch but that's a general idea.

Anthony

[AJ Johnson]

ok, I understand what you are saying here.. one problem that I have, is that as far as I know no one makes suspension lifts for this old of a jeep pickup.. 1969.. I guess I'll just go with the add a leaf system.
Thanks guys

[Cecil14]

You should be able to find a spring shop somewhere near you (near being a relative term ;) ) and have them make you a custom spring. Another thing you could do is measure your springs and go to a junk yard, see if you can match your springs in eye-to-eye length. Check front and back of other brands of trucks and if you find something the same or even real close get lift springs for that.

Anthony

[AJ Johnson]

sounds like a good plan.... I think I'll try that... does spring width matter?

[Cecil14]

Yah, your's I think are 2.5" wide, some other makes used a 3" in the back, that's for pretty heavy duty applications though I think...Most should be able the same as yours.

Anthony

[Joe J-Truck]

I have a pair of front springs from a '68 m715. They are thick and have a big arch. They should lift your truck at least 3 inches, but I imagine the ride is stiff, figureing on these are from an old military truck rated at 1-1/4 ton. I know you can run 37's on a stock m715 with no problems. I THINK these used the same configuration as the early civilian J-trucks, but I'm not sure. I can measure the springs length, width, arch, etc. and you can compare it to your springs dimensions and see if that might work.. Email if you're interested.

-Joe

[HeepofaJeep]

Originally posted by Joe J-Truck:
I have a pair of front springs from a '68 m715. They are thick and have a big arch. They should lift your truck at least 3 inches, but I imagine the ride is stiff, figureing on these are from an old military truck rated at 1-1/4 ton. I know you can run 37's on a stock m715 with no problems. I THINK these used the same configuration as the early civilian J-trucks, but I'm not sure. I can measure the springs length, width, arch, etc. and you can compare it to your springs dimensions and see if that might work.. Email if you're interested.

-JoeNo, the front springs are not the same configuration. m715 springs are 2 1/2", while AJ Johnson's are 2". The rears would work, but the springs are so incredibly stiff anyway, I don't think it would be worth it. A lot of m715 guys remove a couple of leaves, and even then, the spring is incredibly stiff.

AJ Johnson, how good are your fabrication skills. One option is to move to a rear mounted shackle, like I did, but that has to be completely custom, and some math to get the angles right is required. Personally, I noticed a better ride, and that was the best way that I saw to economically lift my truck to what I needed. (custom springs=$$$). Another option you have is to find an open knuckle front end out of a chevy or later year fsj, and just swap that in, and move the springs under the frame (not even THAT hard to do), and then you can use standard, more common 2 1/2" springs, and you can just use chevy lift springs.

BTW, I am assuming you are spring over.

Good luck!!!

[AJ Johnson]

yeah, I'm spring over... one thing to consider about the stiffness of the springs tho... My engine is a 454... Much heavier than what Jeep ever intended on putting in, and I also have a solid steel winch bumper on the front too...so maybe they would be better anyhow..

[HeepofaJeep]

Well, I know to run them in the front would be just as much work as changing to chevy springs, and I know for a fact the springs flex about as much as a steel brick, and I don't care how much your engine ways smile.gif . Just imagine how much payload the m715s were designed to carry, and that will give you an idea of the incredibly high spring rate of the springs.

[AJ Johnson]

lol... good point...
I haven't decided for sure what I'm going to do yet... the wrecking yards around here charge almost $100 for a full spring pack... so, who knows..
another thing I was thinking of doing.. I have some pieces of steel that are about 2.5" to 3" thick, solid steel. I was thinking about torching them to about 2"wX4"-5" long and drilling a hole thru the center to match up with the pin...get a longer pin, and then just use them like a lift block or something.. with the pin through it, I don't think I would have to worry about it popping out or anything... any comments on that Idea?

[River Beast]

that's illegal for front suspension... but it's the same thing as adding rear blocks...

[AJ Johnson]

yeah... I know it is illegal.. but is it like rippin the smog stuff off kind of illegal, or is it like somethings gonna kill me illegal?

[Green Giant]

BJ's is working on 4" lift kits for the older wags AND the Gladiators. I want to lift mine, but I'm waiting for the kit. just my $.02

[AJ Johnson]

how long is it going to be before they have it, do you think?

[Green Giant]

Oct/Nov 2003 for the wagons and ? for the trucks. Heres the link for the kit: Coming Soon (http://www.bjsoffroad.com/comingsoon/bjsliftkits4e.html)
And the link for the site: BJ's (http://www.bjsoffroad.com/bj2.html)

[Tigger]

I know www.alcanspring.com (http://www.alcanspring.com) will custom make springs for Jeep Wranglers so I should see no reason that they couldnt' make one for a FSJ.

[AJ Johnson]

my front springs measure 46" eye to eye and 2" wide... I just found out that dodge ramcharger front springs are 48" eye to eye and 2.5" wide... I may be able to use a ramcharger lift, just have to use a slightly wider shackle bolt...

[River Beast]

Originally posted by AJ Johnson:
yeah... I know it is illegal.. but is it like rippin the smog stuff off kind of illegal, or is it like somethings gonna kill me illegal?Ripping smog off doesn't compare to the safety factors involves with front blocks..... I can't tell you any personal stories on this... but I have heard of NASTY stuff from people trying this.... just keep it safe.... PLEASE

I would seriously wait for BJ's to come thru witht eh kits...

[AJ Johnson]

lol... sittin here lookin at these 37" tires and not bein able to put em on is just killin me, lol... Most likely, I will wait for BJ.. any guesses on what his prices will be?

[Stuka]

I would guess his prices would be competitive to that of rusty's 6" kit.

As for the front blockss, I could ddraw up a quick diagram iff you want to know why they are unsafe....

[Tad]

Originally posted by AJ Johnson:
...I just found out that dodge ramcharger front springs are 48" eye to eye and 2.5" wide... I may be able to use a ramcharger lift, just have to use a slightly wider shackle bolt...I don't think that's going to work either.
First off I don't think that post is long enough to accomodate a wider spring and shackle.
Secondly, a lot depends on where that spring pin is in relation to keeping the wheel in the center of the wheel opening.
Finally, with 2 1/2" wide springs in place up there the spring pins will be out another 1/4" on each side. Won't be an exact fit for your existing spring perches.
Maybe not a deal breaker there but lots to consider besides the actual length of the spring.
It would be interesting to see if it worked, just don't want to see you tossing a bunch of cash at it to find out it didn't.

[AJ Johnson]

well, I may be able to get a stock ramcharger front spring pack to play with for free, if I play my cards right with a fellow that I know..
And Stuka? please do so, and send it to me, I genuinely want to know what the dangers are, and why... i like to know the details and the hows of things, not "just cause"..

[racer32]

SERIOUSLY wait for the BJ's kits or buy a kit from someone else. I wasted $300 and A LOT of time trying to do it myself because i thought i could "do it cheaper". i wasted all that money and time and now i'm saving and waiting again to get a real lift kit... i emailed River Beast about this a while ago. i wish i would have talked to him sooner.... RB whya aren't you psychic so you could tell me to stop before i started??? :D

[ July 31, 2003, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: racer32 ]

[Tad]

racer32,
I think AJ is doing the correct approach.
There is a really big difference between lifting an '85 rig, and an older post mount rig.
I have a '72 J2000 that needs to get lifted by December, there is no kit for that, by anyone.
He's done his searches and is looking for options.
If Bj's is not ready by December then I'll be back with Neil at Southwest Spring.

[AJ Johnson]

hey tadsal... your springs are the same as mine, aren't they?
on the dodge idea..the post on these older trucks can be replaced with a longer one, I believe.. I'll be doing some checking on that one to see what I can find out. so far, it seems as tho the hole is in the same spot as the FSJ's, at least on this one it is.. thos one is a 3/4 ton ramcharger, with the same axle and i think the same steering setup, so all in all, I just may get lucky on this one.. i'll be finding out in the next day or so if I can get this spring pack to play with, if I can, then i'll be able to do alot more experimenting soon, and who knows... this may be the answer we older truck guys need... we'll just have to see, I guess.

[Tad]

AJ,
I'm towing my '72 J2000 home this morning, (about 70 miles) so I have really not given it a "tape test" to see what may or may not fit.
There is at the same spot another '72 J2000 that has some sort of lift braket on the front with a shackle reversal. The owner is a member here but does not visit that often. I'll ask if he minds me taking and posting some pic's of the setup. It looks to be a kit, possibly adapted from another vehicle that also had 2" wide springs.

[AJ Johnson]

sweet, that would be wonderful!!
good luck on your J2000! these things are tanks!

[Tad]

Geese, I am a dork, after driving 70 miles, changing 4 tires, getting the tow bar set, I just jumped in the truck and towed the J2K home.
I'll email him and see if he has access to a digital camera.

[J10Mike]

aj,
i would just wait for the kit. i had front blocks on my 67 j2000. i bought it when i was 18 and didn't fully realize mechanicals and how dangerous it was. the steering was awful and was hard to control. when braking, i could feel the front end sort of shift. adding blocks to the front just isn't worth it.

mike

[River Beast]

Originally posted by racer32:
... i emailed River Beast about this a while ago. i wish i would have talked to him sooner.... RB why aren't you psychic so you could tell me to stop before i started??? :D I tried... sorry ;) I try to teach people thru the mistakes I have made... doing it right the first time is worth the wait and money...

[HeepofaJeep]

The post cannot simply be lengthened. That post is in there for good. There *MAY* be a way to engineer something to lengthen it (I had thought of an idea at some point in MY searches for a lift, but there was something wrong with it because I didn't go that route.) The way I lifted it was really easy for me, but there is definately some welding and building involved.

It seems to me that you have 4 options:

1) run chevy (or dodge,) 2 1/2" springs by building new spring perches under the frame, and moving your new chevy (or dodge) springs under the frame for ease of building, and making it like a newer fsj. The biggest problem with this is you would have to learn how to weld into the cast differential.

2) Just buy specially made 2" springs for your rig, getting the lift you want custom tailored into your frame.

3) Wait for BJs kit, maybe send threatening e-mails to make him hurry :D

4) Lift it like I did: weld front shackles in place, using a square tube bar going across the underside of the frame for support, and then find two new shackles to throw on the rear posts (rear posts of the front, that is.)

ORRRRR

5) Pull a Scotty, and don't lift it, instead cutting useless sheetmetal that will be dented up soon enough anyway :D :D :confused: :D

[ August 01, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: HeepofaJeep ]

[AJ Johnson]

lol... well, from what I see, the spring shackles in the front consist of a bolt that is welded to a plate that is riveted to the frame. If I was to widen the bolt, what I would have to do is Fabricate a new plate and bolt of the proper width. Then I could utilize whichever spring I found to be the proper length, and having the pin hole in the proper place. I still haven't gone and got the dodge ramcharger springpack to compare it, but I also have a blazer that I will pull the springpack off of and compare it as well. As far as I know, in the 70's and 80's Chevy pickups, blazers, and suburbans all used the same springs on the different vehicles, the only difference being between the 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, and 1 ton applications.
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/AJ_Frontfront_springshackle.gif
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/AJ_Frontfront_springshackle.gif
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/AJ_Frontrear_springshackle.gif
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Misc-Pictures/AJ_Frontrear_springshackle.gif

[The Gator]

Dude wait!! Between the ride you will get with the new springs and for the safty factor itself dont rig your ride do it right the first time so you wont have to keep working on it !!!

[AJ Johnson]

guys... those of you that are encouraging me to wait for BJ's kit, I do understand what you are saying here... what I am looking for here is options.. BJ will probably only offer 1 size lift. either a 4" or a 6" lift. I need more options than that.*IF* I do fab my own setup, please rest assured that I will definately be doing this SLOWLY and PRECISELY. I do have a friend that does custom suspension systems in his shop, and who knows WAY more than I do about these things, and *IF* I do something like this, it will be with his help and support, and definately not all by myself. Right now, I am just thrashing out a few ideas and possibilities... Ideally, I would like to switch to a chevy setup, just due to the almost unlimited lifting options I have there... anything from a little 2" lift all the way up to a 13" lift..And, due to the number of units they can sell, the prices are alot cheaper. Like I said, this is just me thrashing out a few ideas... Once I decide what route I will take, then I go to a professional..so...rest easy mates, i'm not gonna ghetto fab something like this..

[Cecil14]

Personally I think if you're going to go to all that work anyway either get a set of post-'74 axles and drop the hangers under the frame in the front, this will let you use any of the lifts we can use on our later model rigs. You can do something similar in the back, cut your current mounts off and use a later style box(this would be a bit more complicated than the front) or just get taller springs and/or blocks.

Anthony

[AJ Johnson]

why buy when ya can FAB!!! lol... I like the work... it makes me feel good to do mods myself..I learn in the process, plus when it works, there is a definate sense of satasfaction there...

[Sambo]

have you measured a cj spring i know they are 2" wide,but not sure on length????
or maybe a toyota landcruiser they also have 2" wide springs,same on length???
just a thought!!!

[AJ Johnson]

good call Sambo! I'm going to have to go measure some of them. The only concern that I have there, is that those rigs are MUCH lighter than mine is. I also have a 454 BBC and a HEAVY steel winch bumper on the front of mine, so whatever spring pack I like must also be able to accomodate not only my 8000 lb rig, but the added weight of the motor and bumper.. This won't be a simple or easy process... but it is fun, and I do enjoy checking out all the options..

[Elliott]

You possibly could cut the spring hangers (that have longer posts) off of a M715 frame, then find springs 2 1/2" springs to fit (or use the M715 springs with a few leaves removed). That may be the quickest route for you.
However...
If your front is all that heavy, how long is that little D44 gonna hold up? Just a thought.
Personally, I wanted to scrap the closed knuckle axle and old steering so I simply swapped in a late model frame and went from there. For all the work you go through to keep the closed knuckle axle....

[ August 04, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[River Beast]

Originally posted by AJ Johnson:
why buy when ya can FAB!!! lol... I like the work... it makes me feel good to do mods myself..I learn in the process, plus when it works, there is a definate sense of satasfaction there...I could not have said that better myself!!!

But I would deifinitely look into converting over to the box style mounts... you will have many more options to choose from ..... think about it....

[Tad]

I'm wondering if there is a readily available source for new spring/shackle hangers that would fit the non-post mount 2 1/2" springs. Or maybe someone could just build their own, maybe even thicker. Then we could put them under the frame, next to the frame, droped down from the frame, almost anyplace we wanted as long as we got the #'s correct and square.

[AJ Johnson]

hey RB.... I would like to do box style mounts, cause I will be swapping in a D60 at some point in the future, but I just don't know anything about them...at all... I'd love to see some pics of an older post style rig that has been converted to see for myself what it looks like. any ideas/suggestions/go-to-hell's?

[Elliott]

To go with mts under the frame won't you have to grind into the differential quite a bit to locate the spring pad?

[Stuka]

Originally posted by Elliott:
To go with mts under the frame won't you have to grind into the differential quite a bit to locate the spring pad?If you switch to '74 or later axles its bolt in. Or you can go SOA with the post 74 axles and get a lot more lift.

[HeepofaJeep]

Originally posted by AJ Johnson:
I'd love to see some pics of an older post style rig that has been converted to see for myself what it looks like. I can get some pictures of my friends rig tomorrow if you want. He went with chevy springs under the frame.

[Elliott]

Originally posted by Stuka:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elliott:
To go with mts under the frame won't you have to grind into the differential quite a bit to locate the spring pad?If you switch to '74 or later axles its bolt in. Or you can go SOA with the post 74 axles and get a lot more lift.</font>[/QUOTE]Right, but Al sounds like he plans to keep the original axle and even if you use Chevy hangers under the frame you'll be chopping into the Dana 44 housing to mount the springs if I remember right. Got rid of my closed knuckle axles so I can't just go out in the yard to check. That's why I thought the simplest way to keep the springs outboarded and increase to 2.5" would be to replace the hangers with those from an M715, use the same springs and remove a one or more leaves possibly.

[AJ Johnson]

mine comes stock with the springs on top of the axles.

[AJ Johnson]

I'd love to find an old M715 to get the hangers off of to experiment with, but i've never even seen one of those around here... so, I have no idea where I could possibly find a couple of pair to try out. wouldn't be a big deal to swap them in at all, if the holes are in the same location as mine, I would just drill the rivets out and use some grade 8 bolts to attach them temporarily while I checked them all out. If I liked the fit, and the springs worked out OK, or I used the ramcharger springs, then I would run a couple of beads of weld around it to secure it even more firmly.. I may be able to get a set of M175 springs, but I would need some help getting the post mounts.

[HeepofaJeep]

You could design something like the m715 hangars. All they are is a bracket that brings the springs a little narrower than what you have now, and also drops the springs down. It would be very easy to build.


Picture of m715 spring hangar (http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1963-1987-Pickups/chad6.jpg)

[ August 02, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: HeepofaJeep ]

[AJ Johnson]

lol... thanks for the pic heep! I'll use photoshop and see is I can scrape some of that mud away... :D

[Elliott]

For M715 check out: http://www.m715.com/
These guys may have hangers/springs also: http://www.boyceequipment.com/old/about.html

HeepofaJeep:
I'm not sure the rear post mount would be so easy to fab (unless you fab a post and harden it, hey, aren't those posts also welded to the inside of the frame rail?), the front shackle maybe....
If you drill out the rivets there is also some weld bead to cut.

[fulsizjeep]

Keep an eye on BJ's site. I am sure this will be a good product for the older FSJs. Choices are slim and BJ has done us good... :D

http://www.bjsoffroad.com/comingsoon/bjsliftkits4e.html

[AJ Johnson]

thanks for the links, I'll check em out..
and thanks for all the good info guys, I appreciate it!

[River Beast]

Porkchop has post mounts that he relocated on the frame for shackle flip... he did a nice job...

It wouldn't be hard to fab box style mounts for newer springs.... just getting them in the correct location would be the key to success.... that is what would take your time and energy...

[HeepofaJeep]

Elliott- with a torch, anything can be cut ;) . I do know what you are saying though, and that is exactly why I personally opted not to mess with the posts.

[Elliott]

Originally posted by HeepofaJeep:
Elliott- with a torch, anything can be cut ;) . I do know what you are saying though, and that is exactly why I personally opted not to mess with the posts.Yep, an figgering I had a lot more front end mods coming on my '66 I just swapped everything onto the '77 J20 frame so any chopping and fabbing would be done at the rear of my rig and the steering would stay relatively simple to improve.

Maybe I'm a little slow, hadn't thought about the box mounts going on the outside of the frame so the pads would stay in the same place on the original axle.
Seems to me that since you can hang a rear Chevy shackle on the front hanger of a late model FSJ, maybe that would work on the Kaiser and you could use Chevy rear springs (full length or swb) which may require only modifying the rear hanger. If I recall correctly the Chevy SWB rear spring is the same length and bushing size as the Kaiser rear (and 2.5"s wide)? So it may fit up front? and might give a little more flex being longer then the Kaiser front springs, while beefy enough for the 454.

[ August 03, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[HeepofaJeep]

Nope. You can't use chevy springs, or anything else that is 2.5" in width on the pre-74 rigs without some sort of modification, hence AJ's problem.

[AJ Johnson]

yuppers... grrr...this is fun, but still a PAIN

[AJ Johnson]

Hello AJ,

Thank you for visiting our web site. Here at Alcan spring, we custom
build our springs to fit your
Jeep using information you give us about its weight distribution, lift
requirements, and how you use it. The price of the springs is; $170
each front spring and $195 each rear spring. They come with bushings
and take about 3 weeks to design/build.

If you have any questions, please feel free to Email us again, or call
us at 888/321-0870. When you are ready to order, please call us so that
we can discuss any particulars you have for the performance of your
springs.

Not a bad price for a set of front springs!!!
get those, and a set of blocks for the rear, and I think i'm set..

[ August 04, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: AJ Johnson ]

[Elliott]

Since you're running a big block, and these will be 2" width springs, have Alcan build them with a Military Wrap. You'll be less likely to bust 'em up.

[AJ Johnson]

I contacted BJs offroad. I want to see if they can do comparably the same on their prices, if they come close, I'll buy from them just because of the wonderful things that I hear from guys here on the forums.
See, word of mouth is the most powerful advertising!

[Chuxwagon]

Okay, I think I missed Jeep class, but a quick stroll out into the driveway with flashlight and ruler revealed that my '70 Wag has 2.5 inch springs front and rear (albeit with the wimpy Dana 27 front). Recently ESPO quoted me $250 for a set of stock springs (front) and a four day shipping time, and Rancho still lists lift springs (3 inch) for Wags and Pickups back to 1963. Where is this elusive 2 inch spring coming from?
I suppose it is possible, though not really probable, that some mystical previous owner did some enviable fabricating to the Chuxwagon, I really doubt it; you may consider changing to a newer 'old style' Wag spring setup. But it does feel kinda nice knowing that my spring is bigger than yours.

[AJ Johnson]

lol... the pickups used a different setup than the wags did. yours may have been converted, i'm not sure.. all I know is that NO ONE makes a spring lift kit for my particular year unless it is a custom job..
still waitin on BJ's to get back to me...

[tuck]

if you want to do some fabbin'... and you want a cheap lift you could make new spring hangers that hang X-inches lower and will give you that much more lift. As long as you build sturdy hangers and put good welds on them, it'll be perfectly strong, and maybe even stronger than factory.

it's quite a bit of work, but you seem to be searching for the cheapest route and you're willing to get your hands dirty, and some sparks down your collar. speaking of dirty... i can't see anything on those pics you posted earlier... there's too much grease and dirt built up there! :D