'63-'75 SOA & Shackle Inversion Kit

[Elliott]

I was thinking about the hassle with the rivet cutting, weld grinding, post removal. That is a lot of work for what you get from it and I also thought about fabbing the replacement hangers... which is all good except (having recently done this) it's extra work to square your axle to the frame without a solid index point.
The simplest route would be to leave those riveted brackets on there with the post mounts just where they are and actually use the post to index and support the upper section of a box mount.
The box mount would be notched for the frame so it would extend under the frame as well as up the side of the frame to where it bolts on the spring post... follow?
Then you could even have a series of optional holes (directly under the post on both hangers) to locate the spring or shackle in for Various "s of lift.... just build the box to accomodate how much lift you might need down the road.
The same style of box could even be made for the front springs and if they bolted to the post mount and the bottom side of the frame rail they would be removable.
Seems like an easy fab project once you figured your variable of hole spacing for maintaining pinion angle.
The rear hanger for the front springs could even be designed to locate the spring further back on the frame to run longer springs, or both hangers could be designed to locate the springs under the frame for running the Chevy axle.
Maybe RB or BJ's could put 'em out there for all the pre '76 rigs?
Whatcha think?

[tuck]

sounds like a really good idea... too bad I already cut my posts off, so I would have nothing to measure from :(

but it really does sound like a very good idea to me.

[Stuka]

sounds good. as doing a SOA on a pre-76 rig is quite a bit more work then a post 76 since todd came out with his kit.

[River Beast]

Sounds good... problem is getting a 'donor ginny pig' that I can work with in my fre time to get it done right....whoever that ginny pig belongs to... would get a kit for FREE!!! :D

thing is... the ginny pig would be in my care until the kit is final... now who wants to give up their FSJ for around 30 days... ;)

There is more to it than that as well... the older FSJ's had D27 (read skinnier axles) than the D44.. so the SOA is a bit lower in gain....

also... you would have to convert your post mount springs to box style... ( read more money to spend)

So your market here would be small... considering the cost of the kit, new springs AND the SOA.

[ September 22, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: River Beast ]

[Stuka]

Originally posted by River Beast:
Sounds good... problem is getting a 'donor ginny pig' that I can work with in my fre time to get it done right....whoever that ginny pig belongs to... would get a kit for FREE!!! :D

thing is... the ginny pig would be in my care until the kit is final... now who wants to give up their FSJ for around 30 days... ;)

There is more to it than that as well... the older FSJ's had D27 (read skinnier axles) than the D44.. so the SOA is a bit lower in gain....

also... you would have to convert your post mount springs to box style... ( read more money to spend)

So your market here would be small... considering the cost of the kit, new springs AND the SOA.tell ya what, find some stock front springs, SOA my front axle, and I will let you use it to fab the rear :D

[River Beast]

that would cost you a little bit, Brandon.....

I have 80 W/T Laredo springs (STOCK) in my garage.....hehehe....

YOU do the SOA and I'll GIVE you a kit FREE when its done...

Better bring some tires.... looks pretty dumb riding on 31's with all that lift... :D

[Stuka]

31's?

my cherokee has 33's buddy :D

[River Beast]

STILL WILL LOOK DUMB.. PAL!!! LOL ;) TRUST ME I KNOW!!!!

[Stuka]

yeahh, would be about 4" more then I have now or so, and with the trimmed fenderss, it would need like 36's to lookright.

[tomd]

I have ideas, just haven't gotten a MIG yet to experiment, i might be able to work it out w/o having to convert to box mounts, or cut off the old mounts...

[Elliott]

Originally posted by CHEEP:
I have ideas, just haven't gotten a MIG yet to experiment, i might be able to work it out w/o having to convert to box mounts, or cut off the old mounts...That's what I was thinking would be the primary build to market so guys could just use the springs they have or use the new 4&6" BJ springs.
A secondary kit could be built basically the same, but for the longer and later spring packs for a more flexy set up.
As long as it all locates off the studs it would be a bolt in bolt out setup.
The second design (unless the kit was cut to accomodate either spring types) would locate the springs further forward and also to the rear.

Hey, thanks for thinking about it. smile.gif

Would it work to have a open knuckle Chevy Dana 44 or 60 located by outboarded springs?
If not that might create the need for a front kit that indexed the same, but located the spring under the frame. The rear should all stay the same.

[River Beast]

I have a quick Q for you post mount guys out there.... what is the diameter of the post mount...the part that the spring bushing pins and shackle bushing pins ride on?

Secondly... what is the width of the spring bushing pin and the width of the shackle bushing pin....

my wheels are turning wild right now.... :D

[ September 22, 2003, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: River Beast ]

[tomd]

I'm pretty dang sure rear 73-87 Chevy springs are the same length as stock post mount rear springs (or at least dang near), so lift springs can be obtained w/o too much hassle... Somebody should double check my measures though, 52" is what the Chevies are... And my measures for my Wag (74) say 51-52". And i'm pretty sure Tadsal is using these springs, i think he had to put the Jeep bushings in them though.

[Wagillac]

Originally posted by River Beast:
I have a quick Q for you post mount guys out there.... what is the diameter of the post mount...the part that the spring bushing pins and shackle bushing pins ride on?

Secondly... what is the width of the spring bushing pin and the width of the shackle bushing pin....
The front Post is like 1 1/4" diameter, I am not positive on that but I remember I needed A huge bolt because I reused my stock springs. I reused the shackles too and the hole was like an 1". I remember for sure the front is larger but im not sure if the tow posts were 1 1/4" and 1" or, 1" and 3/4". Somthing like that, My jeep isnt here so I cant go out an measure.

[Midnightwagon]

todd!!!! when are you coming back to yuma??? cause if you still are i got a pig for ya
uhm but darn i got the lift up front. but anyways you could measure and cut and doo all that stuff if ya wanted cause i'm putting on suburban axles anyways.
Jeremy

[Tad]

Originally posted by CHEEP:
...And i'm pretty sure Tadsal is using these springs, i think he had to put the Jeep bushings in them though...That is correct, they are 52" 1969-1987 Chevy Springs.
Mine are the Triangle Spring replacements with 2 1/2" lift. You have to use the Jeep bushings for the larger post and bolts.
I don't run a shackle flip, It really screwed up my pinion angle when combined with the arch of the springs, it also pulled the tires forward too much.
Prior to that, with just a shackle flip and stock saggy springs those items were fine.

I asked this in another post just a bit back but didn't get any real response:
Is/does/has anyone run the Skyjacker Softride springs?
They have them for the 52" Chevy's in 2", 4", 6" and 8" lift versions.

[River Beast]

Originally posted by Midnightwagon:
todd!!!! when are you coming back to yuma??? cause if you still are i got a pig for ya
uhm but darn i got the lift up front. but anyways you could measure and cut and doo all that stuff if ya wanted cause i'm putting on suburban axles anyways.
JeremyJeremy,

I may be there next summer!!! Monitor is supposed to get back to me around December and let me know what's up.

Evan,

Thanks for the guestimate.... it gives me something to work with.....

Now... I need to know the OUTSIDE DIAMETER of the main eyes.... front and rear...

Still need to know the width of the bushings pins as well....

[Elliott]

Originally posted by tadsal:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CHEEP:
...And i'm pretty sure Tadsal is using these springs, i think he had to put the Jeep bushings in them though...That is correct, they are 52" 1969-1987 Chevy Springs.
Mine are the Triangle Spring replacements with 2 1/2" lift. You have to use the Jeep bushings for the larger post and bolts.
I don't run a shackle flip, It really screwed up my pinion angle when combined with the arch of the springs, it also pulled the tires forward too much.
Prior to that, with just a shackle flip and stock saggy springs those items were fine.

I asked this in another post just a bit back but didn't get any real response:
Is/does/has anyone run the Skyjacker Softride springs?
They have them for the 52" Chevy's in 2", 4", 6" and 8" lift versions.</font>[/QUOTE]I ran the Skyjacker 4" kit on my '80 Cherokee, but that was back before the kit would include 4" lift springs for the back... hard to remember I think the back was 2" with 2" blocks maybe.

Thanks for picking this up and running with it guys, I don't even have a shop to work out of yet and haven't done enough welding to put anything into production that I would want to have y'all driving on.
RB I'll see if I can find specs in my '66 TSM..... nope, not in there.
I had my '66 all parted in the yard before I left WA and dumped everything you need now, drat. :rolleyes:
Maybe we should get specs from Porkchop on the M715 'cause that is a whole 'nother market and lots of those bad boys go spring over with painful inversions. smile.gif

[ September 23, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[porkchop]

I had all this measured up when I did mine last year. I will have to look and see if I can find it. I also had drew up some plans that left the ount in place like you are all descibing, but I abandoned it. I think it was because the spring hanger did not move down that far and the in the new position the spring would bind up on the old mount. If I tried to move it down to far then I would get to much lift. Something like that. I will see if I can find it and try to remember what I had worked out. But this was specific to my rig because of the lift set up I had.

[Elliott]

Porkchop,
That would be super, 'yer talking about the wagon specs? Having those measurements would be a help.
On the M715 I think you or someone else posted that the posts on the front were 1/2" longer then the JTruck (for the 2.5" springs vs 2" JTruck springs), but do you know if the bushing sizes were the same and if the post OD was the same?
Having all that info could help a lot also.

[Kenall]

if elliot is talking about his J200, then he dont need an SOA cuz the front is already like that. also, u shoodnt include 74s and 75s in the same group as 63-73, trucks at least, cuz the front springs were mounted to the frame different starting in 74.

also, the pin mounts on the rears of the trucks are a different cast than used on the wags. the rear pins on the wags are mounted midway up the frame rail side while the Jtrucks are pinned to the bottom outside curve. ill post some pics of my shackle flip in a few.

if memory serves, elliots springs shood be 2" wide. and his brakes will be 11x2 or 12x2"

but then, u guys already nu all this tuff...right?!? :D

actually doing an SOA on pre 74s is ALOT ezr (iv done it smile.gif ) with the d27/30 front diffs, the P side spring pad is not intregal with the diff housing, its welded straight to the axle tube, welding on a nu one is simple.

its not a question of expediency, its a question of durability and manuverability. the d27/30s dont have much of either. cuz if ur doing an SOA in the first place, its most likely ur gonna put on some 33 or better meats. and even if the king pin bearings last its the brakes that are too small even for the stock tires let alone the added leverage of larger tyres smile.gif

with the rears its only a matter of makeing a nu main leaf that has its rear section 2" longer than stock. this will allow the OE rear shackle to hang down and to the rear w/o any worries about it snapping back up under extention of the spring.

AND...when u lower the rear of the rear spring in this way, u naturally point the pinion up towards the xcase, w/o the use of special shaped blocks.

on my 66 i have 7/8" dia pins on my 75 i have 1" dia pins. both are 2.5" wide.

[ September 23, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Kenall ]

[River Beast]

Thanks for the in-depth info, Ken.... I appreciate it as well as the others... there is more research to be done now.....

We have come to know that:

62-73 have 7/8" and 2.5" wide...
74-75 have 1" pins and 2.5" wide...
J's and Wags/Cheros have different mounting locations of the posts...

Are the springs the same length between the early J's and Wags/Cheros?

is there a difference in spring width? These are all important questions that need definitive answers and numbers.....

Keep the info coming... love learning the ins and outs of the FSJ's and how they have changed thru the years...

[Kenall]

for 63-73 the front springs are the same length 44", but the wags are 2.5 and the Js 2.0"

according to my manuals the rear springs are the same in length and width (52/2.5") cept for the 'camper special (VIN 3407Z) which has a length of 57"

Shackle flip photos. (http://www.fsjworld.com/account-photos.asp?album=6597)

[ September 23, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Kenall ]

[Elliott]

Kenall,
My '66 J200 is a non-factor in this as it sits on a shortened J20 frame.

As far as the rear spring needing to be 2" longer is a good point to be taken into consideration, but because the rear hanger would index off of the rear post the hole for the shackle could simply be located 2" ahead to accomodate the original spring length. Similar to like RB does with his present kit.

Probably the thing to do with the JTruck front spring kit would be to build it to index off of the posts and move the springs inboard to fit open knuckle axles, possibly having an extension built in with a 2nd set of holes at the rear to fit later (longer) model springs.
That way if a guy wanted 4-6" of lift and planned to run his original axles he could just buy BJ's springs. If he wants to swap in Chevy one ton gear he can keep the same springs he spent money on and get and swap in a spring relocation/shackle inversion kit for another 6" of lift if that's what it would amount to (maybe that could be made variable, but just moving JTruck springs under the frame is going to create at maybe 3-5"s lift with the shorter springs alone and the rear should be set to compensate for what you get up front).
It will be interesting to see how the M715 pins compare.
And we still need bushing dimensions I think.

[ September 23, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[Wagillac]

Originally posted by River Beast:
Thanks for the in-depth info, Ken.... I appreciate it as well as the others... there is more research to be done now.....

We have come to know that:

62-73 have 7/8" and 2.5" wide...
74-75 have 1" pins and 2.5" wide...
J's and Wags/Cheros have different mounting locations of the posts...

Are the springs the same length between the early J's and Wags/Cheros?

is there a difference in spring width? These are all important questions that need definitive answers and numbers.....

Keep the info coming... love learning the ins and outs of the FSJ's and how they have changed thru the years...I am positive that the posts on my 74 were two different sizes. I am pretty sure that the front post was larger than the rear and after thinking about it more the rear was 7/8" diameter, and the front was ether 1" or 1 1/8".
The springs on my 73, and 74 are 2.5"s wide, and mesureing as best I can with out removing them the spring bushing sleave is about 2.75"s wide, as is the shackle bushing sleave.

[Kenall]

elliot
with moving the rear pin mount forward ur still rivet and weld grinding to remove it. isnt that what u wanted to avoid?

[Elliott]

Originally posted by Kenall:
elliot
with moving the rear pin mount forward ur still rivet and weld grinding to remove it. isnt that what u wanted to avoid?The idea is not to move the riveted post mounts at all, they become an upper support and index point.
This should be removable system with welding only an option.
A lift hanger would be fabbed to index off of the original post mount and the hole for the inverted shackle would now be located lower then the post and two inches forward. The shackle would attach to the new hanger via an axle bolt rather then the post.
It would probably look something like RB's inversion hanger only instead of indexing off the hole in the bottom of the '76+ spring hanger, it would index off off the post mount itself and actually attach there as well as probably be bolted to the bottom rail of the frame at two other locations.

Wouldn't autocad simplify this?!

[ September 23, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[tomd]

man i wish i had a welder cuz i would fab up at least a sample of what i'm sayin to show y'all

[Kenall]

cheep
dont use a welder...use thin plywood for a model.

elliot
i kno what ur saying. a vertical piece in the shape of a triangle with a hole in to pass around the threaded portion of the post that use to secire the shackle. the bottom of this triangle is then welded onto a flat plate that travels from the edge of the triangle to the bot of the frame rail. this large flat area can now accomodate any type of spring mount u wish to.

http://www.fsjworld.com/gallery/SuperWagoneer/78371.jpg

[ September 25, 2003, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Kenall ]

[Elliott]

Kenall,
What you describe sounds right on. Tried your link and it opens as http://www.fsjworld.com/gallery.asp
Looked around for a drawing and all I saw was your wagon in there. What title should I look for?

CHEEP,
Got a scanner?

This is the kind of stuff that makes me want to pic up some training in Solid Works!

[ September 24, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[Kenall]

elliot, did u see the pics of my jeep and the pics of my SOA??

if so, look above the words 'main photos' for the menu, 'change album' click on the arrow and select, 'unrelated'.

the sketch is in there.

other wise my gallery is called 'GraphicGallery'

[ September 24, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Kenall ]

[Elliott]

Ok, gotcha http://www.fsjworld.com/showownerpic.ten?u=3346&n=78371&pos=1&album=6597
Yes, something like that only it sounds like on the rear hanger the top hole for the shackle would need to be two inches ahead of the post hole so the spring couldn't flip up... RB is aware of that with his kit anyhow.
The same sort of setup could be used to locate longer springs from the same index point or in the case of the JTruck they could locate the spring under the frame to fit open knuckle axles, and may or may not also be made to fit the longer JTruck front springs or even 2.5". Sounds like the wagon dosen't need them up front, all they need is a spring over I guess.
Thanks for the drawing. I'm stoked and hoping this could work for the M715 also!

[tomd]

Well, i already have it all worked out, i just suck at drawing, i will work on drawing what i plan to make tonight....

[Elliott]

You should see my vacuum diagrams I drew up for swapping an aftermarket manifold, I have to drink a 6pack before they make sense. Which reminds me...

[Stuka]

Ok, here is what I just wipped up in a few minutes. Dimensions arent correct, with time I could make them correct. This basically takes many of the iddeas from above and puts them into something we can see.

http://tribal.org/~brandon/ifsja/post-mount-flip.jpg

[River Beast]

Not Bad!!!!!

[Tad]

Originally posted by River Beast:
Not Bad!!!!!Yep, not bad at all, but I have 2 questions.

1) Might not apply to all, but with the 2" lift Triangle springs I am running (the Chevy 52"ers) it would be impossible for the shackle to flip anyplace I put it (over or under).
So is the rear shackle point moved forward to accommodate a different length spring?

2) Other than using the original rear most post as an index point, why does anything need to be connected to it at all?
The bracket could easily be made to go around it and then it could be either left in place or chopped off.

[Elliott]

That's pretty much it for the aft end, the front of the rear spring would be similar.
How about the front now? A little trickier cause:
1) it would locate the spring under the frame for fitting a Chevy axle
2) one or both ends would need extending to fit either the factory length spring or the longer later model length springs (preferably it would fit both)***This is going to be harder on the front because the spring mounts being under the frame are going to create variable amounts of lift depending on where the spring actually locates within the arch of the frame
3) the M715 is a different bird yet when it comes to the front spring hangers (hoping Porkchop can get us some specs off of his between paint striping and grabing some oxygen)

[ September 24, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[Stuka]

For the front I dont know exactly how they are setup. I would need pictures, then I could wip something up. But my J is an 81, so its already underneath.

[Elliott]

Originally posted by tadsal:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by River Beast:
Not Bad!!!!!Yep, not bad at all, but I have 2 questions.

1) Might not apply to all, but with the 2" lift Triangle springs I am running (the Chevy 52"ers) it would be impossible for the shackle to flip anyplace I put it (over or under).
So is the rear shackle point moved forward to accommodate a different length spring?

2) Other than using the original rear most post as an index point, why does anything need to be connected to it at all?
The bracket could easily be made to go around it and then it could be either left in place or chopped off.</font>[/QUOTE]1) The Jeep rear springs are 52" also
2) Idea being the kit is a bolt on/off deal that would allow you to return the vehicle to stock or lower height and the hangers would easily transfer to another vehicle (and to avoid the grief of chopping off the factory hangers)

[Tad]

Yes, I know they are 52"

Well that answers question 2, of which there is no hope my wag could ever become stock again.

When I got the '70 it had stock springs and a shackle flip in the rear, pretty sure the only way to get it to flip back would be airborn, going backward, slamming the axle into a wall or something.

Another thought here, if you are going to transfer the force placed on the frame to the bottom as opposed to the side (I understand the diagram bolts to the pivot also). I think it would a good idea to box the frame in that location also.

[Stuka]

hrm...that would be easy too do. Have a piece of c-channel that fits inside and bolt to the top and buttom, weld if the person wanted to (not weldonly, but bolt then weld). I can easily add that to the diagram.

[Elliott]

Almost all of the force would actually transfer directly back to the original stud mount and be distributed over the factory designed plate on the side of the frame. The kit will also locate under the frame and is gusseted (in Stuka's drawing) so what force is actually directed at the bottom of the frame should be minimal and the entire kit would be spreading the total force over a larger area then even the factory designed for. That's all probably going to be a good thing if one ton axles and large tires are used.

On the rear post mount used on the 1 1/4ton M715 the mount looks very similar to what is on the waggys and some trucks, except it has a lip that extends under the frame where it is riveted. This design is essentially in keeping with the M715 and shouldn't need boxing in the frame rail. Stuka did mention that it would be possible to also drill and bolt on the vertical face either side of the post between the post and the bottom rail if thought to be needed.

[Elliott]

Originally posted by Stuka:
hrm...that would be easy too do. Have a piece of c-channel that fits inside and bolt to the top and buttom, weld if the person wanted to (not weldonly, but bolt then weld). I can easily add that to the diagram.Angle iron only, if at all, you wouldn't be able to drill the top square without removing the body. Angle could fit the bottom two bolts and then the two at the side of the frame rail, but remember you have the back side of the rivets you'd be laying that on... I don't think it's needed.

[Stuka]

ahh good point. angle iron should suffice. An L channel going along the bottom and then along the vertical face directlly on the other side of the brace going against the vertical face now.

[Elliott]

And notched for rivets... beefy son-of-a-gun! Hey, where's the drawing :D ;)
What program do you do that in anywaz Stuka?
And thanks smile.gif

[Stuka]

i just wipped it up in photoshop, took me maybe 10 mins at the most. When it comes to doing a real one to scale, I have AutoCAD LT I can use for that.

updating drawing now smile.gif

[Stuka]

here we go:

http://tribal.org/~brandon/ifsja/post-mount-flip-rev-x2.jpg

[Kenall]

wow, thats a buet stuka,
but it still b ezr n cheeper to make a nu main leaf when flipping the shackle.

http://www.fsjworld.com/gallery/SuperWagoneer/78346.jpg

[River Beast]

the rear bracketry is stout.. for sure... just wondering if the overall cost of building that is worth the time... unless you have a plazma cutter and a nice metal press to make it simple... 2 peice rear design...that way you can slide the hangar forward or back to accomodate your spring preference... forward for short... rearward for long.... ;)

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/RiverBeast/post_mount_rear.jpg

[ September 25, 2003, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: River Beast ]

[Tad]

Yea Todd, not many of us are going to have the ability to bend 1/4" MS plate accuratly.
Another consideration I dreamed about last night is that for the post mount rigs in back, even though the springs are 2 1/2" wide, the very front bushing and the rear post bushing on the shackel are those wider sleeves with the odd (I want to say knurled but they are not really) ends.
They are much wider than 2 1/2".
I guess they could be ground down/off but that leaves one finding some huge spring bolts and compensating for that distance lost to keep the springs in the correct position.

[River Beast]

Tad,

this is why EXACT measurements are essential to build a prototype.... as you know... alot goes into prototypes and retrofits before the final product... I had 3 prototypes before my final kit production...

There may be an easier way than bending 1/4" steel.... box tubing in the correct dimensions that could be cut to make the top support.... thats a thought....

[Elliott]

RB, I think your drawing would work ok for the rear. However, the front should be a solid index (whether that is off of the post or just the post bracket itself)
-vs- floating to ensure the axle stays square to the frame.

[River Beast]

Elliot,

of course it would be indexed... you have to have a solid mount for front and rear... the sliding rear would be temp until you configure it for your springs... then the rear would be solid mounted as well...kinda adjustable... like mine until you bolt it up solid.

[Kenall]

love ur interest Todd, no one has designed em better than u, but stukas design!?

no bending required, very adjustable for the springs length, and takes advantage of the OE pin to distribute the load as it was designed to do.

the difficluty with the Js compared to the wags and seen in my the pic of my previous post, is that the OE pin mount curves along the bot of the rail and has the other 2 rivets vertical on the bot of the channel. the bot portion of stukas design wood have to be relieved to accomodate.

[Stuka]

forgive my stupid question, but where is the bot?

[River Beast]

bot=bottom :D

Ken,

you need to re-distribute your dictionary again!! LMAO!!!!

[Kenall]

i figger he woodnt understand Todd..he drives a TWO DOOR!! :D

[Tad]

Ok, I spent some time crawling around and taking pic's and here are some basic numbers.

postmountrearwagpt1.JPG (http://members.cox.net/chmsawsroofracks/postmountrearwagpt1.JPG)

It raises more questions in my mind and this appears to be a lot of work to get it right.

How much does a shackle flip gain?

I guess I could measure mine when I install the rear 44 and do the flip again but it won't be a correct number as I have the chevy shackles back there.

[Stuka]

I have 5.5" of lift in back using stock springs and a 2" block. So I would say 3.5" is just about right for lifft gained.

[Tad]

OK, so let's try some basic math here and see what pops out the other end.
If the center of the rear post is 2 3/4" above the botom of the frame and we want to move it down 7" (assuming a typical 7" SOA on a front 44), we have...

7" - 2 3/4" = 4 1/4" (for a point 7" below the center of the original post)

But we have to subtract your 3 1/2" for the shackle flip, so...

4 1/4" - 3 1/2" = 3/4" (for a point 3/4" below the frame to equal 7" of lift at the rear of the spring)

That all sounds well and good, so now we want to move the front hanger down the same amount (7") to keep the correct pinion angle.

So...

7" - 3 3/8" = 3 5/8" (for a point 7" below the center of the original post at the front)

I'm pretty sure the math works, but none of it will work with my lift springs :( everything would change. Not that that is any big deal, my numbers would just change.

[ September 27, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: tadsal ]

[Kenall]

or just use some angled 2" lift blocks like i have to move down the pinion.

[Tad]

Ya Ken, that works with stock springs I think. With the arch in my rear lift springs the shackle flip also pulled the tire forward, looked really stupid and was almost right on the wheel well opening, not that that would matter now.

[Stuka]

lowering the front mount would move the tire back to where its supposed to be.

[Wagillac]

With the added lift you want the pinion up more right? So you wouldnt lower the front quite as much. Tad on your post mount picture it lists the post as being 9/16" now that must be the threaded part correct? The post that the bushing sleave slides onto is much larger then that.

[Tad]

Wagillac, I'm not really sure, I didn't pull any of the nuts off, I just measured what was sticking out from the nut, so you could very well be correct.
I'll see if I can't scare up some time tommorow to double check that.

[ColeTrickle]

Uh huh...I was wondering why y'all were being so quiet!!! :D ;)

What are y'all up to??? J/K!

I'll just sit back and read. If y'all need any measurements, lemme know.

[tomd]

I kind of plan to use the same mount front and rear partially for simplicity, and then run a shim or whatever to make the pinion at the angle i want (or maybe reweld perches sometime). And no, i still haven't gotten mine drawn up...

[Elliott]

Originally posted by ColeTrickle:
Uh huh...I was wondering why y'all were being so quiet!!! :D ;)

What are y'all up to??? J/K!

I'll just sit back and read. If y'all need any measurements, lemme know.Cole,
Nobody has added any specs or even pics for the front axle setup yet and my '66 Jtruck is on a J20 frame. If you could take pics of both post mounts on the front of your J3000 it would help us in figuring how that end could modify.
Also, if you could pop the washer and nut off of the front and measure the OD of the bushings and OD of the post I don't think we have those yet. Still need all that from an M715 yet, but Porkchop will probably be able to send that it in I'm guessing.
Thanks for the offer. smile.gif
Elliott

As far as correcting the pinion angle, by adjusting the amount of drop on the fwd hanger of the rear axle, you guys are right on. That will allow for any further pinion angle, required by additional lift from springs to be compensated for by shims or blocks usually included in the lift kits. Same approach will be neccessary up front.

[Tad]

OK, pulled the post and spring bolts on the rear wag post mount setup. I was wrong about the odd knurled ends they are at the front of the rear spring and on the shackle that goes on the rear post.

postmountrearwagpt2.JPG (http://members.cox.net/chmsawsroofracks/postmountrearwagpt2.JPG)

I don't have time to do the post mounts on the J truck right now, maybe when I yank the bead and rest of the front clip I'll get around to it.
Personally, I'm thinking of just making shackle hangers that match my front wag ones and placing them under the frame on the truck, not going to keep the older 44's on there anyway.

[ColeTrickle]

Originally posted by Elliott:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ColeTrickle:
Uh huh...I was wondering why y'all were being so quiet!!! :D ;)

What are y'all up to??? J/K!

I'll just sit back and read. If y'all need any measurements, lemme know.Cole,
Nobody has added any specs or even pics for the front axle setup yet and my '66 Jtruck is on a J20 frame. If you could take pics of both post mounts on the front of your J3000 it would help us in figuring how that end could modify.
Also, if you could pop the washer and nut off of the front and measure the OD of the bushings and OD of the post I don't think we have those yet. Still need all that from an M715 yet, but Porkchop will probably be able to send that it in I'm guessing.
Thanks for the offer. smile.gif
Elliott

As far as correcting the pinion angle, by adjusting the amount of drop on the fwd hanger of the rear axle, you guys are right on. That will allow for any further pinion angle, required by additional lift from springs to be compensated for by shims or blocks usually included in the lift kits. Same approach will be neccessary up front.</font>[/QUOTE]Good deal Elliot, I'll get those measurements ASAP. As for the pics, give me alittle time on those. I don't have a digital camera. But I'm sure I could get something in a few days.

[Elliott]

ColeTrickle, Hey that's great, appreciate it.

[Elliott]

tadsal, Excellent pics!

[Tad]

Originally posted by Elliott:
tadsal, Excellent pics!Thanks Elliott,
I will do the JTruck too, I am just so pressed for time right now.
The rear of the wag is easy to get pic's on since it is lifted and Bob'd (pun totally intended Dr Bob, you were my inspiration).
It will be much easier and produce better pic's when the front clip is off the JTruck.

[billybooster]

Riverbeast
Wanna play with my J10?! It seems pretty standard right now - I'm only in South OC, not too far it would seem. Pic of rig here:
http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/users/3e6fa377/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/__hr_the+big+ol%27+truck.jpg?bfsWIe_AAll4ih1D

[River Beast]

Billybooster,

I cant see the pics.... link no worky!!!! I may be interested....if you can do without your J for a little while....

I will be using alot of the info from this post.... it all pertinent to the construction as we have learned a few things on differences.....

[Elliott]

bttt

[Jethro]

i wish i was in cali i would donate mine to the cause

[Elliott]

Originally posted by gcvfd975:
i wish i was in cali i would donate mine to the causeIt shouldn't take too long to get something together for your rig as it's going to be the simplest of the designs... keep checkin' in. smile.gif
Wait... your wagon is a late model and RB already has a kit for that one.

[ October 08, 2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[ColeTrickle]

Elliot, I was looking at the '66 overall and it looks the same as far as the back is concerned.
Thats just eyeballing it though.
I haven't been able to do much else with the rain and all.
Looks like I'll have to take the spring completely off to accurately get a OD spring bushing and spring measurement.
As soon as it dries up, I'll let everyone know the results.

[Elliott]

Any progess or updates out there?

[River Beast]

not yet... no donors yet

[Tad]

Hey, clip is off the J2K, nice and easy to measure with the drivetrain gone too.
I'll try and get numbers and pic's next weekend.

[ColeTrickle]

Tadsal, glad to see you can get to yours easier.

Now I'm not one to make excuses...BUT...

Apart from my full time job, my part time job has taken away from me time. So with that being said, ALOT of the promises and help I said I'd give has been neglected.

I hope my apology will do. :(

[Elliott]

Hey, we'll get there if I have to buy another rig just to mess with it!
It's nice to see some different approaches to how this set up could work, and if we come up with something it would be great to see it get marketed as a kit for guys without tools/time/or ability to fab, or at least get some specs/diagrams into the tech section.

[stephen43]

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Technical/3D.bmp

What about something like this?

[River Beast]

You cant do that with the post mount setups from 75 and older.... I make kits for 76-91...

People can always remove the post mounts... buy my kit and add a few support brackets to the frame and buy newer model springs or just replace the bushings

Now I know that is simply stated...but there are width differences in the older springs I believe

[Elliott]

Yep, something along those lines as long as it indexed of the original post mount.
The front mount for the front spring of the pick post mount is going to be harder, or maybe the rear of the front spring post mount.
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Technical/3D.bmp

[Elliott]

RB, all of the older springs were 2" fronts and 2.5" rear, even on the one ton.

[porkchop]

My 67 wag had 2.5" springs all the way around. And so doe the M715.

[ November 20, 2003, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: porkchop ]

[Elliott]

Porkchop,
I should have clarified that to say all the pickups excepting the M715 had the same spring widths. I wasn't refering to the wagons because they don't have post mount front springs that would need this hanger kit.
Why the one tons didn't go to 2.5" wide springs up front is beyond me.

[tuck]

Here's our farmer-fab wagoneer. I originally wanted to move the hangers under the frame, but we were in a bit of a hurry and didn't want to box the frame and move the perches.

front mounts are customized chevy hangers, rear are home brew units out of 1/4" ..

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1963-1983-Wagoneers/springmount1.JPG
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1963-1983-Wagoneers/springmount.jpg

[ November 20, 2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: tuck ]

[stephen43]

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Technical/frame bracket.jpg

Its a very big picture, but I dont know how to shrink them, sorry. What do you guys think about shackle reversals in the front? Now is the time for me to do one and I was wondering what your opinions are. thanks

[ November 20, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: stephen43 ]

[RustyJeep]

OK...DO WE STILL NEED FRONT END J4000 PICS?
I have 4" lift srpings on the front of mine, and I definately know that the stock, side hung setup will accomidate all types of axles...mine came originally with the closed knuckle front, then it went to a D44HD off of a Chevy, and now it's a J20 D44HD, so I know a open knuckle 44 will fit, and probably a D60. The Space is tight (perch sits right next to axle housing cast on passenger's side for J20 axle, more space for a Chevy...or Dodge...the housing is actually centered more for them) Let me know if we still need pics...I know Cole's been bugging me for pics of my truck anyways..soo let me know. smile.gif

[ November 20, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: RustyJeep ]

[ColeTrickle]

Yeah...about those pics, Ben??? ;)

One question though, Ben. Did you go from a SOA D44 chevy front axle to the SUA D44 J-20 axle?
Just curious.

[ November 20, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: ColeTrickle ]

[Tad]

Yes Ben, lot's of pic's please.
I want to get this stuff figured out this winter while the front clip and cab are off.

[RustyJeep]

Ok..the reason I went from the Chevy back to a J20 one is pinion angle...I'll snap a pic of my chevy housing and you'll see why. with my caster at 0 degrees, my pinion was still level or maybe even pointing down a touch. This was a problem that could only be allieviated by turning the knuckles or swapping axles...I chose the latter. This pinion angle also grenaded my front shaft, as I found out after putting the new axle in...so thats where I am now.....slip and cv are toast. the J20 axle was 2" narrower, and I miss the old stance, but I had it sitting here and you know how that goes :rolleyes: Oh, and yes...it was an SUA J20 axle...but being that I have the side hung springs, SOA setups are a no brainer...triple check new perch angle and weld on 2 perches. :D :D

[ November 21, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: RustyJeep ]

[ColeTrickle]

Sounds like a heck of a deal Ben. So how's the bumpsteer and any other related issues with the front J20 SOA'd D44?

Appreciate the review... ;)

Oh yes...where's the pics? smile.gif

[RustyJeep]

I had to work on the PowerStroke tonight (contaminated diesel...had to drain 35 gallons)...so too dark now for pics :( As for bumpsteer, she's smooth as a baby's butt with no steering stabilizer as of now (old one's brackets are too small for the axle tube), a 3" drop pitman, and the 34" tires smile.gif

[Tad]

Originally posted by RustyJeep:
...This pinion angle also grenaded my front shaft, as I found out after putting the new axle in...Ok, I'm confused (a typical day for me).
The chevy angle was wrong?
Or the J20 SOA angles was wrong?

[ColeTrickle]

Originally posted by tadsal:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RustyJeep:
...This pinion angle also grenaded my front shaft, as I found out after putting the new axle in...Ok, I'm confused (a typical day for me).
The chevy angle was wrong?
Or the J20 SOA angles was wrong?</font>[/QUOTE]Tad, he mentions that the pinion angle of the Chevy was about level.

In order to correct the Chevy, he'd have to shim the heck out of it to align it to his transfer front output. Or get the knuckles cut then re-welded.

As for the new SOA J20 D44, I'm sorta of baffled.
You see, even though Rusty, mounted pads on top of the axle. I'm figuring his steering arms off the knuckle are now pointing downward a bit.
But then again, I'm not to familiar with the angles of an already SOA'd rig :confused: :D

[ November 22, 2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: ColeTrickle ]

[69WagFromH@%L]

Id be more than happy to let you use mine!! My 69 has been sittin forever because i have not had time or money too work on it! The only problem would be how to get it too you? If you are interested shoot me an email!

[RustyJeep]

Ok, I knew it would confuse people...that's why I said the pics would explain it all. As for steering knuckles on th eJ20 axle, they are set to the stock caster spec, and the lines the pinion right up to where it needs to be in regards the the driveshaft angle. This is accomplished because the actual placement of the pinion on the J20 D44 is different than the Chevy. PICS WILL SHOW!

[RustyJeep]

Ok, I took some pics today in the snowy, blowy cold. They're under the front axle gallery of my FSJ World account.

http://www.fsjworld.com/RustyJeep
My J is still a work in progress, even the front end setup is....so don't heckle me over some miniscule thing...it's still being ironed out. It all works good, just need to tidy it up a bit.

[ November 24, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: RustyJeep ]

[Elliott]

Rustyjeeps
Aft of JTruck front spring post mount:
http://www.fsjworld.com/gallery/Rustyjeep/78935.jpg
Front of JTruck front spring post mount:
http://www.fsjworld.com/gallery/Rustyjeep/78931.jpg
http://www.fsjworld.com/gallery/Rustyjeep/78936.jpg

[Tad]

Ben, that's some nice arch to those springs.
iirc they are the scout2 ones?
or was that someone else?

[River Beast]

Originally posted by 69WagFromH@%L:
Id be more than happy to let you use mine!! My 69 has been sittin forever because i have not had time or money too work on it! The only problem would be how to get it too you? If you are interested shoot me an email!Thats great.. but it would help to be a little closer.... ;)

[69WagFromH@%L]

Well if or when you get that kit in production let me know!!

[RustyJeep]

Tad, they wre custom springs made with 4" lift in mind from AB Spring in Grand Rapids, MI. They ride nice, actually...I was kind of apprehensive at first.

[ColeTrickle]

Dude, you having a garage sale or something...cause there $%^& scattered everywhere!!!
BWAHHHH!!!!HAHAHA!!!!
J/K! ;)

http://www.fsjworld.com/showownerpic.ten?u=3300&n=77177&pos=1

Is this the J20 D44 or chevy?

Hmmm...Here's my guess, FSJ World SUX for posting pics.

[ November 26, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: ColeTrickle ]

[RustyJeep]

Hmm, must be FSJWorld doesn't like remote linking. I am assuming that pic(and comment ;) ) are from the crap strewn about when I installed the intake. Yes, that is the Chevy axle era, and yes I like the wider stance from that axle, and yes, if I coulda found a cheap one sitting around I would have used one(in newer format...pinion is actaully moved up in position in the housing) BUT...I wanted it up and running, and I had this one sitting here, and and and....I shoulda just ponied up for a D60 :rolleyes: ;) smile.gif

[fulsizjeep]

RB - So, if we got our 69 running and over to 29 Palms, you would build the kit, provide it for free and we leave with lifted Wag??? ;)

Ours has a 74 Chero NT front axel on it now...
http://frontier.net/~mystkblu/69wag/lfront.jpg

[ November 27, 2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Flint ]

[Kenall]

elliots ride must be stiff wit da shackle straight u n down..it shood be tilted, like this:

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1963-1983-Wagoneers/RearShackleFlipTilt.jpg

my fronts r tilted the same amount.

[ November 27, 2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Kenall ]

[Stuka]

having it face straight down wont make the ride stiffer. the spring will still extend the same amount when compressed.

[Elliott]

"elliots ride must be stiff wit da shackle straight u n down..it shood be tilted, like this:"

That's how mine are angled (like your's), I think you're thinkin' of someone else's?

From what I've read, the angle of the shackle will effect the spring rate: http://www.rpmnet.com/techart/leaf.shtml

[ November 27, 2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Elliott ]

[RustyJeep]

Thats mine, and no, it's not stiff. It rides just fine, better than the GW. That was from the springs being arched the way they are. The spring co. didn't take into consideration the effect of overarching on eye-to-eye dimensions. I haven't found any adverse effects from it, but i still may change the main leaf out one of these days for one about 1.5" longer.

[ November 28, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: RustyJeep ]

[Kenall]

ah

[Elliott]

Hey Todd, how about if I find a pre '73 JTruck frame and just cut out the entire rail on one side and ship it to you for some mock up?
That would be easier then getting a whole rig to you. :D
Actually, someone near you may have a frame laying around....
I know where two bare frames are right now, but they are up in WA State and I went and whacked mine all into 1/4s for the scrap yard. :eek:

[River Beast]

Thats how I originally made the J truck rear mounts in the first place.... Crazy Pete sent me a hunk of frame to take measurement off of...since this was the only difference between the wags/cheros and J trucks

Problem is... I would need the entire J truck to get the suspension right with angles of th3 pinion and all.... sure I would mock up some mounts... but without the entire chassis... kinda sketchy.... never know what can come up... so I would rather be safe than sorry

[Elliott]

Well, I'll have to see if I can dig one up for you in CA. Up at Olympic in WA they would have no trouble letting a frame go before it went to the crusher if it was for a project like this. I'll keep my eyes peeled Todd.

[Elliott]

Here's a link to a great close up picture of the aft spring post mount on the front spring of a '72 JTruck:
http://community.webshots.com/s/image7/4/29/28/110442928CHNPGB_fs.jpg

[trickster31]

I am purchasing a 73 IHC P/U. The cleanest and straightest body I have seen in the 8 months I have been looking. Need to know where to purchase lift kit for the P/U. Rough Country and Trailmaster offer a lift kit for the 73 Scout. The real question is how different are the two vehicles? Can the kit for a Scout be used for the P/U. Or will I be force to Fab some shackles? If so how, high can I go w/out worrying about brake lines, drive shafts and pitman arm? Have lifted many jeeps in the past but never a IHC. Help please feel free to email me. Thanks,
PAT

[Elliott]

Pat,
Welcome aboard. I don't have much experience with IH but try these sites:
This guy can help you, and probably has just what you need:
http://www.backcountrybinders.com/index.htm

http://www.binderbulletin.org/

http://www.ffreak.addr.com/muddylinks.html

http://top4x4sites.com/

[FSJ Thing]

Many may be happy that this thread dissapeared, but I wanted to let everybody know that BJs has a prototype and needs a sucker..er..I mean guinea pig to test it. Check bllyrbs thread in General Discussion to volenteer! Act quick or you may lose out!

[Tad]

Personally I have given up on the post mount front concept for the Jtruck.
Just finished knocking the rivets out of a set of J20 front hangers.
Looks like all posts and their mounting plates will have to come off to get them on.
I'll just need to do the standard springs thing up front after that and go with some more of the Triangle 52" Chevy lift springs in the back to level it out.

This is a worthy effort, but I'm not in the position to deal with the 2" wide springs and at the same time convert the 360 motor mounts to the Buick style.

[oldyellowwagoneer]

I have an idea that might work for you guys. mount spring mounts directly under the frame and install front springs and shackles,get the spring center pin to center pin measurement. lets say its 32". now take a chevy(right hand) or ford(left hand) diff and measure the pin to pin distance on it.lets say its 35" with this example you would then narrow the housing on the long tube side 3".Now, look at an axle length chart and find one thats that much shorter than the stock one was. Check the axle charts before you narrow since you might need to adjust it by a 1/2" one way or the other. Dennis

[Tad]

Dennis, I think that's very workable but a bit complex for me.
I'm thinking simple here.