To convert to R134a or stay R12???

[JeepFreak]

Well I am going in tomorrow to have my 80 Cherokees system charged. I have come to the conclusion that everytime I touch A/C parts they blow up. Just recently converted my wifes 93 Escort to R134a and within a month the compressor is blown. I guess thats what I get for not having the system evaced, oh well. Anyway I have to decide if I want to stay R12 or not. The guy said most likely the system has a very slow leak probably caused by one of the hose connections. He said to tighten them all up and to meet him in the morning to check for leaks. Compressor was replaced by PO in 97 and has just now needed recharged. He is charging 37.00 for labor to evac and charge system. He is also charging 20.00 per pound of R12 which I thought seemed fair. Problem around here is that he is the only place in town with R12. He still has boxes of the cans in his shop. I would like to get opinions from those that have changed over and those who stayed with R12.

[ May 29, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]

[turtlejoe]

R-12 Thread (http://www.ifsja.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004161)

There's a number of threads I found, but this one seemed to cover the conversion in general. I have heard and read pros and cons on both sides and I'm still not sure what I'll do with mine.

Good luck!! smile.gif

[River Beast]

I'm running R134 conversion in the wifes 80 W/T .... it gets to 42 degrees... its in triple digits hear almost daily now and she aint complaining....

I installed a new dryer and new compressor with and evac to the system and head pressure is 255PSI with no problems...

[rangerkh]

Where is he getting R-12 for $20? Everyone here is charging $60 for it.

[JeepFreak]

Rumor has it that he bought out a supply house right before R134a was law. All I know is that he does all the AC work in my town and has lots of R12. A friend of mine told me about him and said he has people all over the state coming to him to get AC work done. I am thinking that since the price is so cheap that I might just go with the R12. The guy I bought my truck from lived in AZ and said when he bought the truck the AC worked great. But in a two years time he put 500 miles on the truck. When I picked up the truck and tried the AC the clutch started cycling so I knew it needed charged at that point.

[JeepFreak]

TurtleJoe, the conversion makes no difference to me...I just want to get the best cooling for the money is all. Figured since today looks to be hot across most of the country people could give me an unbiased opinion. I know that it sucked in my Suburban with dual air.

[jackz4000]

I recently had to consider the ac. Its working just fine, but I was thinking to the near future. My '90 GW is not converted to r-134. I quickly discovered there is r12 around at a reasonable price...so no conversion is necessary. I would go with the r12 while its available.

[BK]

I have charged several different older cars with the 134A for friends of mine who bought the "easy" conversion kits that just don't tell ya everything about how to do it, like sucking the system dry first. They all have been running fine with no new equipment for several years now and the stuff is cheap. Now they can add a can themselves if they need to. You need to vacuum it good though.

[JeepFreak]

I would like the freedom to add a can myself. Well I guess I will wait and see what he says in the morning.

I made the mistake on the 93 Escort of not having it vacced and it almost cost me 199 for a remaned compressor or 300 for a new one!!! Lucky for me my nieghbor has a 94 parts car with good air. I will for sure have him vaccum it out after I put in the compressor. My wife has been so hacked the last couple of days cause it has been hot and she has no air.

[Cliff]

R12 for $20 sounds suspicious. There are R12 substitutes out there (Freeze-12 for example) and I would make sure he's not pulling a fast one. However, Freeze 12 seems to be a workable solution to the high cost of R12. Cheaper than the R134 conversion.

[JeepFreak]

Hummm...Well I will be there when he does the work so I will see whats up. He is just an old guy that retired from home HVAC work. He will not replace any parts for you. He just charges and evacs systems.

[ May 29, 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]

[tuckers89GW]

if hes got the real deal, and only for $20lb. I'd stay with R12 for a while. You can always do the switch the next time if he doesn't have any left.

[JeepFreak]

I asked him just this morning and he assured me for r12 it was 20.00. Didn't even ask what the R134a was.

[The Anti-Chrysler]

I get it for $20 a pound (or less) from the junkyard (recovered from salvage vehicles).

[GasWag]

The nice thing about the R134a is you can go into a store and buy it, unlike R12, I guess if you can get it cheap go with the old stuff smile.gif I need my A/C checked would like to have it working soon.

[Tad]

Originally posted by The Anti-Chrysler:
I get it for $20 a pound (or less) from the junkyard (recovered from salvage vehicles).I would not buy recovered R12 unless you really can verify what is in it.

Originally posted by Cliff:
...There are R12 substitutes out there (Freeze-12 for example) and I would make sure he's not pulling a fast one....There is a thread on here someplace, Freeze 12 is 80% 134. I posted it, it came from the EPA website.

[JeepFreak]

Well just to update... I went to the shop this morning and my system took a 1lb charge of R12. He didn't recommend changing over because the system didn't look to be leaking. The truck had sat for two years and had only had 500 miles put on it in that time. He said some older systems will leak over time and to just turn it on once in a while to keep it well lubed. Oh and it is so so cold! He does indeed charge $20.00 per lb for R12. He said they had bought a lot of it before the R134a deal was law. He said it was not recycled. Total bill for hook up and charge......$40.35. See sometimes it pays to live in billyville.

[ May 30, 2003, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]

[illegalFSJ]

If I had an A/C system, I'd definately convert to 134a. Even if you have it done prefessionally, it really isn't that much. I work at a dealership where we convert older models to modern A/C all the time. We charge one hour for the conversion and 1.1 hours for the service. Includes the labor, freon, new orifice tube, line fittings, and you know it's done with the proper equipment. R-134a is cheap, and if you need to re-charge in the future, it's easy, no more worry about trying to find a good deal on R-12.

[jackz4000]

I don't know the cost of converting a GW to 134. What is the cost and whats involved. There is r12 around and it is still made and some have stockpiled it. As I understand it you need an EPA certificate to legally buy it. For $12 you can get the certificate from the epa.

[Allen78J20]

Freeze 12 is awesome! Still works great, freezes me out still on its second summer season. Sucked down 3 cans before last summer started. I didnt convert anything. Cost me the cans off Ebay, and the r12 hose kit at Autozone(in other words cheap)

[JeepFreak]

Not to bring up an old thread but after two more years and 1500 miles on my Cherokee since it was last charged it finally has stopped cooling again (probably only needs a lb again as it still cycles)...One thing I found was if you don't have carpet the AC is usless because it will freeze up solid with all the heat from the floor. So until I replace my carpet I see no need in recharging the system. Talked to the same guy as before and his r12 is still 20 a can but he now uses uses RedTek for his R12 and empty r134a systems and says it works as well if not better (he does alot of big rigs and says it works great in these). He also said that my system may not leak at all as the redtek is made of a larger molecule. Anyway hadn't heard of this stuff before and seen a few people here that have used it so when I get carpet figured I would give it a try.

[ June 28, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]

[HARDCORE pacer]

Red tek is the way to go way better coolant and better for the enviroment and is a direct replacement for the r-12 with no fittings to change either.

[Spectre]

Jeep, the shops down here in Dallas say that RedTek is not adequate for use down here in the deep humid South.

And AMC? Legally, you have to change the charging ports to install an alternative refrigerant.

[helipilotken]

I have converted my van to 134 and I wish I had not. It does not get as cold and I have devolped many small leaks as the A/C system is large with many connections. Also R-12 seems to be getting cheaper and 134 more expensive as there is a replacement for 134 comming out. I feel if the system was designed for one type of refrigerant that it will work best on that type.

[bigblack'74]

just get some mp-39 it is the DIRECT REPLACMENT FOR R 12 you have to have a license to get it.. but it works very well.. if you know someone who is licensed that can help you

[ June 29, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: bigblack'74 ]

[Spectre]

AFAIK, MP-39 is not certified by the EPA for use in cars.

R-406a is a good substitute for R-12, as it was designed for use in South Texas, and it is EPA SNAP certified.

[steven79]

i sent red tek an e-mail about there stuff last night.
they use 134 fittings on there system acording to there web site

[bigblack'74]

Originally posted by Spectre:
AFAIK, MP-39 is not certified by the EPA for use in cars.

R-406a is a good substitute for R-12, as it was designed for use in South Texas, and it is EPA SNAP certified.good call.. allthough there are alot people who do use is auto's anyway

[JeepFreak]

Well all I have to go by is what my AC guy told me. He said it cooled as well if not better than R12 and said it was twice as good as R134a. I'm no AC man but I do know this guy hasn't let me down in the past. It was 100 degrees here today and my r134a converted Escort just couldn't hang. As for R406a is this the new r134a replacement? I couldn't believe the price of r134a.

[JeepFreak]

Actually just found this site...

http://yarchive.net/ac/r406a.html

Looks like good stuff but it is twice the price of the RedTek stuff...Might look into it further.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by steven79:
i sent red tek an e-mail about there stuff last night.
they use 134 fittings on there system acording to there web siteWhich is illegal, it needs to use its own distinct fittings.

[Spectre]

Originally posted by JeepFreak:
Actually just found this site...

http://yarchive.net/ac/r406a.html

Looks like good stuff but it is twice the price of the RedTek stuff...Might look into it further.406 is a hybrid refrigerant intended to replace R12 and that can be used as a replacement for R134a in early, poor performing systems. http://www.autofrost.com

RedTek, at least so far, doesn't have the heat transfer capabilities to work well in Texas.

[JeepFreak]

So do you use it yourself and if so how does it work for you.

Also according to the owner inventer this stuff is not "legal" in auto systems either.

Due to this extremely bad "political" climate in the auto
industry, R-406A was withdrawn from EPA SNAP consideration for
Automotive a couple of years back. The auto industry has more or less
left us alone ever since. R-406A is EPA SNAP approved for most
everything else (except automotive and mobile A/C) in the US.

Hope this helps.

--ghg (Inventor of GHG R-12 Substitute, R-406A)

[ June 29, 2005, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]

[Spectre]

Used it in an 86 Ford F-150 I dumped a little while back (to buy my Jeep). Worked great. Nothing else on it worked, but the AC was great.

Your bit of info is a bit old. The EPA certified it in 1996.

[ June 29, 2005, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Spectre ]

[Spectre]

Here is the current list for EPA authorized refrigerants:
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/mvacs.html

That web site is updated regularly.

Rather amusingly, it suggests that one should use evaporative cooling in a new vehicle....

[JeepFreak]

According to thier website there is a known problem with the york compressors. Looks like its needs a neoprene crank seal and they sell kits for those/our compressors. Stuff looks like a good deal though and has went through the approval process so I might give it a try. I am assumming that replacment hoses from the part store will be of the right materials as well as they mention barrier hoses will need to be replaced.

[ June 29, 2005, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: JeepFreak ]

[Spectre]

Correct, barrier hoses suitable for R134a are also suitable for R12 or any of the alternative refrigerants.

The neoprene York crank seal isn't available at this point from any major source - good luck finding it. That's why I'm all over this Sanden aftermarket conversion. Going to be finishing that up tonight, with some luck....

Whatever you do, make sure you use an oil that is compatible with 134a and 12, that way it will work with *any* of the approved refrigerants should you have to convert to another one later. Synthetic oils that will work with any are commonly available.

[grease monkey]

just the facts!when converting an r-12 system to 134 it will not cool as good as the original system, however newer systems designed for 134 cool better than r-12 systems(supposedly)When retrofitting to 134 it is recommended that all rubber hoses be changed due to the fact that the synthetic oil(PAG)will cause the internal walls of the hoses to crack therefore letting the refrigerant to leak, also all o-rings should be changed from rubber(black) to neoprene (green)or the same thing will happen to your seals letting the freon leak out. As far as alternative refrigerants, regardless if they are approved by the EPA or not most companies that sell A/C parts will not warranty a replacement part if it is not used with r-12 or r-134a, and the correct type of oil. It has been a while since I have been to an A/C class but this is material that I have learned in the past couple of years pertaining to current A/C diagnostic and service methods.

[JeepFreak]

Buddy of mine just sent me two can of R12 so Im good for another two summers. But eventually will need to change.

[Spectre]

grease, many of the compressor manufacturers are starting to warranty their compressors under R406A as well.