Rear Revolver Pics and Traction Bar pics

[rockjeep44]

Some of you were requesting pics of how to run rear revolvers and/or flip the rear shackle without a kit. Well here are the pics along with my traction bar setup which allows me to run those rear revolvers with minimal problems. I'm posting the first two pics and linking the rest. Feel free to hit me up with any questions.
-Andrew

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/revolver1.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/tractionbar2.jpg

http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/revolver2.jpg
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/revolver3.jpg
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/revolver4.jpg
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/revolver5.jpg
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/revolver6.jpg
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/1984-1992-GrandWagoneers/tractionbar1.jpg

[ May 19, 2003, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: rockjeep44 ]

[greasyjeep]

Thanks Andrew

Great Pics

Looks like I have my work cut out for me.

Josh

[Midnightwagon]

how is the front of the traction bar attached? im interested in building some of these.
they look great and enough out of the way.
great work.

[Max Power]

good idea and nice fabbin'!

question: How did you determine the height to mount the box? I'm thinkin I might mount the top of the box level with the top of the frame... would give a little more lift, no? Additionally theres a xmember from the bed thats in the way.

This is my kind of mod, cheap.. 2 revolvers and maybe an extended brakeline and it involes the sawzall and welder.

thanks,
Robert

[River Beast]

Just remember... you cannot mount them EXACTLY where they are... the shackle works differently when inverted and should be moved forward to allow proper operation.....

[greasyjeep]

For the traction bar front mount I am thinking of a belly pan that would have the mount built in similar to what the new long arm kits have.

May just need to look at drive shaft clearence issue, but would havbe to look at those anyway.

[greasyjeep]

Originally posted by River Beast:
Just remember... you cannot mount them EXACTLY where they are... the shackle works differently when inverted and should be moved forward to allow proper operation.....in the pic it looks like they may be in the same spot.

Looks like you can see the old seem where it was cut off? Not sure though.

May be a trial and error thing.

[rockjeep44]

I initially welded the square tubing mount for the traction bar to the stock crossmember and that worked great until I bent the crossmember. If you notice the stock crossmember has two bends in it which make it weak at those points so I just made a new crossmember that runs straight across from frame rail to frame rail and welded my box mount to that. I don't have any pics of that but will snap some when I get a chance.
-Andrew

[River Beast]

It is a trial and error thing... I went thru this with my inversion kit first prototype....

when you invert the shackle the operation is different....

in the stock positon... the box holds the shackle from going too far in either direction.... with the flip you don't have that (unless you do it like Andrew did..)

notice in Andrew's pic that the rear spring eye is forward a bit of the where the shackle is bolted to the mount.... this may be ok for Revolvers but not stock or solid shackles.... with a full droop the shackle may want to swing forward upon compression.... I ran into this with my first protoype kit....

Notice in the below pics that the shackle faces to the rear... this allows full droop with no possibility of trying to reverse itself.... Andrew with NEVER have this problem with his setup due to the box not allowing it to even try....

Plus... if you do not lower the front mount ( this should be figured in at the time) it will act as a pivot point moving your axle forward and altering the angle of operation of the suspension IF you do this to gain lift..... if not and you just want and inverted shackle.... then you dont have to drop the front mount.

http://home.earthlink.net/~riverbeast/RB_Kustoms/img9.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~riverbeast/RB_Kustoms/img3.jpg

[ May 19, 2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: River Beast ]

[FSJ Thing]

Hey Rockjeep44! Was it you that asked if I got any pics of my Wag? I finally got sum but I can't figger out how to post them. Can you stick em in the "rigs that suck" part of the Rebel Rock Runner site, seeing as how it sucks that it don't have a front axle?

[rockjeep44]

LOL, yes it was me and NO I won't post them there. I replied to your post in the GD area but I'll say it again. Your rig sounds too sweet to go there! smile.gif If the pics are under 1meg total send them to my hotmail account and I'll get em up for you
rockjeep44@hotmail.com
-Andrew

[rockjeep44]

Good point RB. I've noticed that the more you move the rear axle back the better the revolver works. I've moved mine back about 1.5in
-Andrew

[FSJ Thing]

Thanks Rockjeep44!. However, I finally pulled my head out of my ...... and fingered out JTFs site. I got a post up on the GD board now. It's nowhere near what your rig is, but It's drinking milk, and someday......

[BIG BAD JON]

Nice pics Andy! Love that truck of yours!

[Midnightwagon]

ok thats it im gonna copy you on that traction bar. i like it its simple and im gonna do it too. you cant stop me!!!!
no really i like the design and it beats the heck out of having one on each side.

[rockjeep44]

Go for it man. I bent two and ripped one off the axle before my friend and I saw the skyjacker design at a ride we were leading that was sponsored by them. So, we decided it was perfect and promptly copied it http://www.nagca.com/forum/images/smiles/1devil.gif Haven't had a problem since other than bending the crossmember but that wasn't the traction bars fault. It works so well if you stomp the gas from a dead stop the rearend lifts about a foot off the ground. BigBadJon, I saw you PMed me about my rear bumper. It's made out of 2x4 and 4x4 square tubing cut at a jillion different angles to fit together like it does to give the illusion that the bumper is one piece. In reality it's many pieces welded together, ground, and welded some more, and then painted. There is about 24 hours of labor in that thing and that was with me and my buddy working on it. Here's a good shot of what I mean.
-Andrew
http://www.rebelrockrunners.org/gallery/petersshop/andrew/images/L1000035.jpg

[ May 19, 2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: rockjeep44 ]

[jode]

Originally posted by River Beast:
in the stock positon... the box holds the shackle from going too far in either direction.... Are you saying that the shackle hits the box and that is what stops it from overtravelling? My shackle (in stock configuration) has never hit the box.

I think in your case, the problem was not that you inverted the shackle, but that you changed from a flat spring (flat, or close-to-flat when fully loaded) to an arched spring (arched when fully loaded). The shackle on a "flat" spring will swing towards the axle whether it is being compressed or is drooping. On the other hand, a lift spring is essentially a flat spring that is pre-drooped. In that case, when it gets compressed, it is similar to when a flat spring uncompresses...in other words, when a lift spring is compressed, the shackle will swing away from the axle, and when it is allowed to droop, it will swing towards the axle. This is contrary to a stock spring in which the shackle swings towards the axle under compression or droop.
In summary, it seems more than likely that your initial problems with the shackle flip arose from the fact that youwere using lift springs. (You were using lift springs in the rear when you did the initial flip right?)
It seems to me that a shackle whether facing up or hanging down would operate in the exact same way. The only difference being if the angle of it was changed.
Anyway, I don't really know what I am talking about, and I aint trying to step on yer toes ner nothing...just thought I'd share that little bit of insight...

Andrew with NEVER have this problem with his setup due to the box not allowing it to even try....[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it actually looks like Andrews Revolvers have been hitting the shackle-box...looks like there is a little dent in the Revolver...

[jode]

PS, in that last pic that Andrew posted, it is kinda funnny to look at the profile of the wheelwells and then to look at the profile of the tires....them wheelwells aint zactly in the right place anymore are they :D

[jode]

Oh yeah, and I meant to ask you Andrew, I couldnt tell from the pics if that is just spherical rod end on the end of that traciton bar or if you have it mounted to a shackle. I was just thinking, if it is permanently fixed (not mounted to a shackle) then that design prolly won't work very well (articulation-wise) for those folks not using the revolvers.
Here is my reasoning (which may or may not be true)
- Your design forces the axle to travel along the arc created by the traction bar. If that arc does not match the arc created by the fixed end of the spring, then something is gonna bind. In the case of revolvers, I think they may serve to release some of that axle binding since there are two pivot points on them. In the case of the stock setup, I would imagine that there would be bind.
To release the tension in stock setups, but retain the function of the trackbar, people install a shackle (similar to the one at the end of a spring) that will allow the traction bar to move forward or backward as needed to release bind, but that keeps the traction bar end from moving up or down (noticeably) so there can be no axle wrap.
I'm sure somebody here can figure out a website link that shows a good picture of what I am talking about.

One thing is for sure though...ain't nuttin limiting the travel on Andrew's Jeep :cool:

[jode]

One more thing...Andrew, did you fab a separate crossmember to mount those shocks to, or are they moutned to something stock? That is about the same angles that I was planning to do mine when I get around to it...

[River Beast]

Jode,

The reason I said the the box retains the shackle position in the stock location is that when I did my Skyjacker lift.... at full droop the shackle did rest on the box....as it swings forward to allow droop

[rockjeep44]

Ok, lots to say here. First, Jode...you've got good eyes. There is a little dent where my revolvers have hit the box. Thats happened a couple times when I've caught some air going up a ledge and came down really hard. No biggie though. As far as mounting point for the traction bar, it's mounted with a heim on the crossmember end and with 2in bushings at the axle end. The heim provides most of the twist but the bushings provide some good twist as well if it needs a little extra. As far as not working well without revolvers, I'm really not sure. Your logic makes sense, and thats one thing I like about the revolvers. The fact that they allow several pivot points. But, I do know exactly what you're talking about with the shackle mount and those designs don't work well at all. I've seen them in action at Tellico on baby jeeps and it seemed as if there was no traction bar at all. I've never seen them on FSJs though so who knows. They could work I guess. The designs like you're talking about can be gotten through Sams Offroad or Mountain Offroad Enterprises.
-Andrew

[BIG BAD JON]

Andrew- Thanks! And what kinda metal did you put across the back of your Wagoneer. As taillight mounts and such. What kinda metal was that?

[rockjeep44]

1/8in aluminum. I cut it with a plasma cutter to get it to fit the curves right. I remember I got a sheet big enough to do the back plus a sheetmetal sheet to do the sides where the carpeted cardboard used to be all for 20 bucks.
-Andrew

[jode]

I wonder if the reason the shackle style traction bars function poorly on minijeeps is due to the short wheelbase. The shorter the traction bar, the more a slight motion in the shackle will allow the axle to twist. With a longer traction bar, it seems logical that the longer you go, the less effect the motion of the shackle would have on the axle (meaning that the axle would move less the longer the bar).
So maybe they would work on a FSJ or other log wheelbase truck....

[Bob Barry]

I think Mark is running a shackle at the front of his traction bar. Really, since the traction bar is not controlling the fore-aft movement of the axle (that's for the front half of the leaf-springs), the only think you have to stop the traction bar from doing is going up and down, which is what a shackle would do, especially if it were mounted with rubber bushings top and bottom. That would also allow for greater flex, as that front mount would no longer define the pivot-point for the arc that the axle travels in.

[BIG BAD JON]

Dayum! $20!?! SAWEET!

[jode]

Good points BB. Where you prolly run into the most trouble is flex in the bar. Obviously, Andrew's bar aint fixing to flex much seeing as it is braced, but I have seen them where it is a single tube running to the shackle... that is gunna flex no matter what is at the end of it, and that will decrease the traction effect.

[greasyjeep]

I would think with a shackle at the end of it the traction bar would become somewhat useless.
the bar is supposed to eliminate axle wrap under load. This would be similar to a "south side bar" you see hanging out the bottom of the built late 60's chevys.

with out the revolver the traction bar would limit the suspension travel because of crossing arcs which would bind. But with the revolver the traction bar can dowhat it is supposed to do and not bind because of the infinite arcs that the suspension can now travel.

If your worried about the traction bar limiting your travel I think if you put a slip joint type of configuration together at the end conneting to the frame there would be no limit at all to the traction bar and it would still doits job because of the triangle at the top and bottom of the axel.

[Bob Barry]

Originally posted by greasyjeep:
I would think with a shackle at the end of it the traction bar would become somewhat useless.That's what I thought at first, but the anti-wrap bar doesn't work like a ladder-bar (though it looks a lot like one). It doesn't locate the axle, but simply prevents it from twisting/rotating. To do that, it doesn't matter if the anti-wrap bar pivot moves forward or back; you just have to prevent it from moving up and down, which a shackle would do in both compression and tension.

Just think of a slapper-bar on a leaf-sprung Nova; it doesn't have a fixed connection at the front, just a snubber to limit rearward rotation of the axle. Replacing that rubber snubber with a shackle connection not only prevents the bar from moving up (and hence, the axle from rotating rearward), but also prevents it from moving down (and hence, prevents the axle from rotating forward).

Axle wrap is when the axle rotates quickly forward and back in a hopping motion; this is even worse with soft flexy springs, which allow the axle to oscillate. With the anti-wrap bar, the axle is prevented from rotating.

[greasyjeep]

you say slapper bar I say south side ;)
I think we are talkinag about the same thing with different vocab.

Andrew has what I would call a traction bar because not only does it prevent the the axle wrap which it was intended to do, but also loads the axle. That is why his rear raises on acceleration. FOr every pound of force it takes to raise his rear, he gets equal force pushing the tires into the groud.

[rockjeep44]

Yup, and that force really makes a huge difference offroad. After I put in the traction bar my jeep turned into one heck of a climber. Even under excessive throttle it just digs down in and climbs right up, whereas before it would hop and lose traction and break u-joints and yokes. As far as the shackle mounted bars, I see what some of you guys are saying why they should work as far as physics is concerned but like most of you know a lot of stuff that works on paper doesn't work on the trail and vise versa. I just haven't seen a shackle mounted traction bar work like it's supposed to yet.
-Andrew

[Midnightwagon]

ill make one that works!!!!!!!!!!!! or at least ill give it a heck of a try. well when i get home that is.

[Bob Barry]

This is the kind of setup I was talking about that incorporated a front shackle:

http://www.jeepxtremes.com/hillbully.htm

http://www.jeepxtremes.com/_derived/hillbully.htm_txt_hillbully.gif

[imported_Giaguaro]

wow! great work!!

[Damage, Inc.]

Traction bars, no offense to everyone that like them, kill your suspension. If you're running leaf springs and tractions bars, then it's like using a condom with a hole in it....think about it. :D

[jode]

Damage...two things for you to consider....

1)
Have you ever seen the flex pics of Rockjeep44? (with the traction bar attached)

2)
that simply aint true in all cases. S'posing that the above pictured traction bar integrated a johnny joint (or similar joint) inside of one end of that shackle. It would allow that axle to go EVERY which way EXCEPT to rotate....in other words, it won't affect flex at all and it would stop axle wrap, etc.

[Wagillac]

In theory it does effect flex by forcing the axle to rotate against the leaf spring and each other when one wheel is stuffed into the wheel well and the other at full droop. Though there must be enough play in the shackle bushings ect that it doesnt seem to hurt flex hardly any. Some traction bars work and some dont the design rockjeep has seams to be the best but every one seams to have there own opinion. For more information just search pirate and you will find way more than you want to know.

[Wagillac]

BTT... I killed this thread or somthing. Some one must have some thoughts on this.