View Full Version : Need some inspiration. How to start making the J10 more hard core!
06-17-2003, 12:47 PM
Since Andrew is parting his, I figure thats one less bad *** off road FSJ out there. I just got a free f250 work truck, so Ive decided to start thinking alittle nutty. You can look at my pics in sig, and add dana60 front now. I am thinking about doing away with the bed and the doors. Maybe welding up a light weight, tube style bed. Just something to strap things too basically. But what else should I do? I really don't want to get into maechanics(engine,tranny, tcase)for now. Im pretty happy with the Fuel injected 360,t18/208 setup. Just thinking about hacking some body parts and weight reduction. Maybe some drive line mods? Just kinda looking for some ideas I may want to try. Thanks, Dennis
06-17-2003, 12:55 PM
Hehe, don't get too anxious now ;) The biggest downfalls of these beasts is their weight so you are thinking in the right direction. Start by ditching the entire bed and bobbing as much as possible. A custom flatbed with integrated rollcage/exterior cab rollcage would be sweet as h*ll. Ditch the doors and move the front axle forward, mabye add some sliders. That would definitely be a nice start. Definitely upgrade your axle yokes to at least 1350 or 1410 units. Are you thinking about suspension mods as well?
06-17-2003, 03:16 PM
he he,andrew beat me to it. 1st thing i was gonna say was "make it shorter" smile.gif i would not only bob as much as you can,but consider cutting a section out of the center of the frame as well,shoot for 105 to 110 inches of wheelbase,IMO.
lose the heavy bed and doors. add at least a front cage,and fab somethin lightweight to hold your spare tire and whatever else you like to carry with you. :cool: leave the rear window out and you could link an in cab cage to a rear cage.
let me know when youre done and ill meet you at highway 909 to test it out :D
[ June 17, 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]
06-17-2003, 04:14 PM
Yea, suspention would be an area I would like to spend some real attention too.
06-17-2003, 04:16 PM
Tell me about moving the axle? And how far forward? Purpose and gains. Would I also have to move the rear? And what about shortening the wheel base?
[ June 17, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: KYJ10 ]
06-17-2003, 04:48 PM
And I sit I think too high. Since Im gonna hack the fenders, do away with the body lift?
Originally posted by scotty:
he he,andrew beat me to it. 1st thing i was gonna say was "make it shorter" smile.gif i would not only bob as much as you can,but consider cutting a section out of the center of the frame as well,shoot for 105 to 110 inches of wheelbase,IMO.Or just put the axles, body (minus bed) and drivetrain onto a Wag chassis, wonder where that idea came from????
Some links to tube beds (mainly on toys) on my site, might give you a couple ideas...
06-17-2003, 10:59 PM
I have a short bed, so I assume my wheel base is 119". So getting it down to 110-105" range, should be fairly simple. And I really like the tube beds there Wagonator. Will prolly go with something like the one with the roll cage.
06-18-2003, 12:17 AM
a friend of mine did that as well-put a j20 cab onto his wag chassis smile.gif hes got alot of potential for it to be really cool if hed put some effort into it and finish it...
anyway,main reason i suggested that is that the truck framerails are biger and beefier,plus his cab and axles are allready attached to it ;) prolly alittle less work to shorten the frame than to swap a complete drivetrain(engnie,tranny and axles) and cab
i think the only way youre gonna move the front axle forward much is to convert it to coils. theres not really much room to move the leafs forward any. the advantages would be 90+ degrees of approach and departure angles if you did the rear as well :cool:
your axles are wide enuff i think youll be pretty stable with the height youve got. i run 4" suspension and 3" body. kyrel runs a soa with a small lift spring on his cj,and my xj friend runs a soa+4" lift spring on his xj. both run full width axles and are still stable in the off camber spots despite the somewhat high lifts. i definately wouldnt go much higher,but a SOA with a body lift prolly isnt too high
no way id ever get rid of my body lift. it makes workin on it alot easier :D
06-18-2003, 12:24 AM
wagonator,i really like your rollbar toy bed. thats super sharp :cool:
06-18-2003, 01:10 AM
Don't forget some really cool stickers. :cool: Seriously, I think you're headed in the right direction. Good luck, brave soul.
06-18-2003, 02:55 AM
I definitely wouldn't lower it. With a wheelbase of around 110in if thats what you go for, and full-width axles the last thing you're gonna have to worry about is rolling. Also, Scotty had a good point. If you're going to be removing the bed it would be nothing to just cut a bit out of the frame in order to get the desired wheelbase you want, and then weld it back together and box it in where the cut/weld is for strength. You can move the front axle forward 1in very easily with some offset spring pads (15 bux) from mountain offroad (www.mountainoffroad.com) or if you're going to need new perches just buy their perches and forget the pads because they have the offset hole built into them. I move the front axle forward 1in and the rear axle back 1-3in on all the FSJs I do an SOA on. It makes the tires fit better and makes fender trimming easier if you have 4 doors. As far as suspension, since you're going to be taking off most of the body now would be the time to build a crossmember and consider 4-linking the front and rear. Since you're swapping in the 60 front and will have the bed off in the rear it would be a lot easier to do it now then later. With that setup you can run coils, coilovers, or 1/4 elliptical, and the amount you can bob will be unlimited which means you could concieveably have over 90 degrees approach and departure. If you want to have the hardest, flexiest, meanest, baddest rockcrawlin J-truck out there, there is no substitute for coilovers. Thats what I'm going to with King Dual Rate coilovers. You can get all 4 coilovers (shocks and springs) with the dual rate kit for about $2000. Right now I'm trying to get my ducks in a row for my 4-link and coilover setup for my buggy. It's gonna be awhile but there is no substitute for good planning so let me know if you need any help.
06-18-2003, 03:06 AM
You can also gain an inch or two of wheelbase up front by swapping the front leafs end-to-end (the centering pin hole is offset to the rear). People installing Rough Country 3" lifts used to inadvertently extend the wheelbase all the time... ;)
06-18-2003, 04:19 AM
i know this really hasn't been thrown out there but what are you wanting to do? i mean do you want a mudder or a rock crawler or both! if you ask me it really depends on YOUR approach to the obstacle and the kinda money you have.
As far as suspension, since you're going to be taking off most of the body now would be the time to build a crossmember and consider 4-linking the front and rear.$$$Cha-ching$$$ andrew's right, the time would be now but do you have that kind of capability or resources? also, four-link material and joints can be costly to be done right. not saying you are unable, just playing devil's advocate. you could always get long travel leaves for the flex factor and still pocket some dough for other projects to the ride. you would also be able to move the axle forward if you saw fit. as for the rear i agree, chop it.
06-18-2003, 04:45 AM
This may not be what you're asking, but I REALLY like the look / functionability of the high-mounted truck beds as used in the Nissan 'ute' trucks sold in Australia and places like that. The bed sides are MAYBE one foot tall, and the whole shebang is mounted HIGH to allow (I would guess) for wheel / suspension travel. Plus, if you built a bed out of tubing and expanded metal....hmmmmm. Maybe weld a roll cage to THAT and include mounts for spare tires, etc.
Just throwing that out there...
06-18-2003, 05:07 AM
good call on the offset spring pads,i was for some reason just considering the room that there is to move the spring hangers forward on the frame. redface.gif
i forgot that i have moved my own axle forward by using chevy springs :eek:
i think ill look into moving it another inch with the offset pads,you can never have to much of an approach angle smile.gif
06-18-2003, 06:36 AM
Yea man, I'm a believe in those pads or the spring perches. I use them on my truck and anyone's truck that I build. But, if you use the pads make sure you weld them to the perches because if you don't and you drive your truck really hard (like you and I do) then they will slide around a little even if your u-bolts are tight and sometimes bend or break the spring centering pin. I got lucky and only bent mine but I've also had the pin jump outta the hole. Since I've welded them to the perches I have had zero problems.
06-18-2003, 08:46 AM
scotty i have a set if you want them for cost, no shipping.
06-18-2003, 09:12 AM
'78 Cherokee frame
'75 J-20 sheetmetal and I-6
'81 J-10 axles (3.54s), T-176, and NP-208
SOA with stock springs, fender flares removed
36" TSL SXs
I was offered this truck for free but had to turn it down because I didn't have any place to put it :mad:
06-18-2003, 10:03 AM
It's moslty gonna be an all around 4x4. Tell me more about the offset spring pads? Orangechero, I would be interested. I really don't have the money for the coils, but do have the ability to shorten frame and move driveshafts. So If I move the front axle, and cut some of the center frame out, go ahead and move the rear axle back also? And how far. I guess as far as possible?
06-18-2003, 10:05 AM
And what about what Bob was saying. Flipping springs end to end? Any thing wrong with this? I would think with offset pads, and flipping springs, you could gain an easy few inches right there. Dennis
06-18-2003, 03:01 PM
do just the rough country springs have the pin offset? its been awhile,but i seem to remember my stock springs being centered. my chevy springs were going to move the axle either 1" forward or 1" backward,dep. on how i installed em.
im running a 6" tuff country lift spring for 73-87 chebby. due to the negative arch found in a stock height chevy,the 6" springs give closer to 4" in a FSJ.
orange cherokee,if kyj10 doesnt want em,shoot me an email what you need for the pads :cool:
06-18-2003, 03:10 PM
I picked up a set of stock fronts today. The centering pin is off. And it was the same way on the rusty's springs. So anybody got a pic of these offset pads? Im trying to get a visual here. Im for sure gonna cut the frame, move the front axle forward, and look at the rear axle to see if I can move it reward. Keep it coming. Dennis
06-18-2003, 03:16 PM
here's the pads:
06-18-2003, 03:41 PM
If you ask me, the stock Cherokee wheelbase is just about perfect. Just shorten the frame behind the rear shackle-hangers, and do a shackle-reversal on the front that moves the springs forwards a little bit for an improved approach angle
06-18-2003, 11:55 PM
orangechero, I am interested in those pads. That is, if some one hasn't already got dibs on them. Dennis
06-19-2003, 12:03 AM
psycho15,hes got a j10,so he will need to shorten it to cherokee wheelbase smile.gif
id shoot for 105-110. that range seems to be a good compromise between too short and too long
[ June 19, 2003, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]
06-19-2003, 12:08 AM
Yea, Im at 119. Havent gotten the bed off, but am sure there is plenty of frame up by the cab to cut. I will probably shoot for 109". But will have to wait and see how much is under there.
06-19-2003, 02:19 AM
Yeah I meant putting it on a stock Cherokee frame. Might be easier
06-19-2003, 03:24 AM
well, i did offer them to scotty first but if he declines you're more than welcome to them. let me know what the deal is.
06-19-2003, 03:35 AM
They're 15 bux a pair
06-19-2003, 05:03 AM
im going to get some either way. it doesnt really matter to me if i get them from orangecherokee or just order a new set,so ill leave it up to kyj10
i am about to swap my front axle and transfer case,so a new driveshaft will be needed anyway,so now is the time to add them.
06-19-2003, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by Sycho15:
...putting it on a stock Cherokee frame. Might be easierid prolly rather cut out a section of frame than swap an engine,tranny,axles,and cab :eek:
plus the truck frame has bigger,fatter framerails,maybe better in the long run to use the truck frame.
i guess its going to be a fair amt of work either wich way,so it may 6 of 1,half dozen of the other...
kyj10,if you would like to swap your cab,etc. onto a wag/chero frame,ive got an 81 or so frame you can have for free :cool: if you want to ill go to down to middletown and check out the its state of rust contamination smile.gif
06-19-2003, 05:23 AM
No, the frame swap sounds like alot more work that I need. Scotty, I will just order me a set, so have at em. I just got my 60 apart, and it's kinda a mess. Needs seals, bearings, some kingpin bushings, joints. You name it, it needs it. Dennis
06-19-2003, 08:57 AM
i really have no use for them so i was gonna get rid of them for 15 even, no shipping! thanks andrew for helping ;)
06-19-2003, 09:29 AM
Have you guys run into anyprobs created by moving axle forward, ie, shock clearance,steering linkage, I know the driveshaft issue... I've been considering it for "sickpuppy"...
06-19-2003, 09:55 AM
i found that the jeep did better with the axle forward. no problems at all for me!
06-19-2003, 10:29 AM
Nah, moving it forward is definitely bling bling
Frame swaps are a PITA, i'm in the middle of one... The truck frames have a taller channel, and i do believe they are a thicker gauge too. Moving springmounts should be bad at all, you could also inboard the springs, box the framerail in those areas, and have even easier mounting of springs. Not too bad either way.
06-19-2003, 02:41 PM
So do we all agree that flipping the springs from ened to end is not a problem? Mine measured 1" off centered. So with the pads, and flipping the springs, I should be 2" or so forward the easy way. May also still look at moving hangers. Dennis
06-19-2003, 11:43 PM
kyj10,did you end up going with the older axle so you wouldnt have to move your spring hangers? i thot the superduty one was new...
orangecherokee,have the pads allready been welded to your axle? are they off and ready to ship,or do you still need to take it apart? if youve still got them on your axle i may just order some new ones to save time. if theyre ready to go,let me know how you want the $$,i can use paypal or send ya a MO
when i put in my chebby springs,i had to make a new front driveshaft,but other than that i havent had any issues. i cant comment on stock steering,since im running a heim joint setup
id say yes,we are in agreement that flippig the springs is not a prollem,other than the work of doing it if theyre 20 yr old stockers that have never been off ;)
if i were building a rig from scrath(well sorta,like you are) id prolly go ahead and move my mounts alittle further up as well.well,actually,id prolly just make my front bumper different and cut the front of the frame to the mounts,as that would prolly produce the same effect smile.gif i dont want my wheelbase to sneek too much past 110,i wish it was closer to 105...
06-20-2003, 03:28 AM
scotty, i never ended up using them. they haven't seen a spring perch yet. they are minty!!
06-20-2003, 05:42 AM
After looking at all the things I was gonna have to do, I decided to go with the older axle. It was gonna have to have a special steering setup, cause the stuff from parts mike and such just won't work on the new axles. And outboarding the springs + the metric bolt pattern. It just all seemed like alot of work. Im doing alot of work, but didn't need that much more. Liked the idea of the axle lining right up. And I cut the front of the frame back to the spring mounts already. Or else that big lug of a winch bumper I have would have stuck out 10 feet! Dennis
Hey..just a few thoughts....
Why not fab up a new front bumper first (or modify the one you have) so that it is integral with the frame, and then mount your front spring hangers on the bumper itself (in the reversed configuration so that the shackles are in the rear). That (coupled with the previously mentioned spring pin relocator and reversed springs would get your front wheel as far forward as is possible without going to a shorter leaf (or ditching the leafs altogether).
Then, measure out the wheelbase you want and go from there. That would be awesome and I am thinking with some bigger tires, you could be right close to a 90 degree approach angle.
Another thing that would prolly help immensely and would be super easy would be to either ditch that swaybar, or fab up some discos for it. That thang has to go!
Oh yeah, and once you get the front all done and everything, why not use the same spring-mounted-on-bumper idea in the rear (so the rear shackles are integrated into the rear bumper - maybe in a little recess so that the shackles wouldn't get bumped too often on rocks and whatnot)
I figure that doing the above would yeild a 198.54% increase in wheeling capacity :D give or take a few hunerd percent ;)
06-20-2003, 09:55 AM
I usually bungee the sway bar when wheeling. I like to keep it just for an occasional trip to town. Going around these curvey country road without it is a scary ride. I kinda like to keep my front shackles in the front, as was told by High Angle, that having revolver shackles on the tcase side of the drive shaft would create problems.
Hmmm...well, with my plan, you can still do that, but then the shackles are the very first thing to take a hit up front....maybe you should nix the revolvers?
BTW, High angle was right
Doing a shackle reversal oftentimes would result in more lift also... Could probably be done w/o, just need some shimming, and might be kinda funky.
06-21-2003, 03:40 AM
Shackle reversal would necessatate ditching the revolvers and the use of a long slip/travel driveshaft. Not worth it for these big jeeps. Yotas and baby jeeps do it but I don't think it's a mod for these big boys.
06-21-2003, 02:54 PM
i agree completely. i think the minimal decrease in aproach angle is worth not having to use a long travlel slip driveshaft,and not being able to use the revolvers.
my xj friend has about a 1/8 inch window of getting his front shaft the right length-a fraction too short and it will pull apart,alittle too long and it will potentially cause tranny/xfer damage when it completely collapses.
kyrel was still pulling long travel shafts apart so he made one out of 2" reciever hitch stock :cool: hes now got lots of travel and would be rich if he had a dime from every person that asked him about his square driveshaft. i had my doubts but so far its holding up good and not causing any prollems
my front shaft in comparison hardly moves at all-prolly not much more than 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch either way.
another thing to consider is that with rear mounted shackles the tire moves into the rear of the fender/firewall upon compression. clearance is tight back there,and it is possible that youll prolly have to add bumpstop and actually lose some uptravel with the rear shackle-mine used to rub there even with a front shakle and the tire moving away from the rear upon compression
[ June 21, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]
Back to the point...moving the front shackle onto the front bumper...the shackle inversion was only one small aspect of the plan....and not even a necessary one...the only reason I brought it up was cuz with the shackles so far forward under that type of seyup, they wouldbe one of the first thing to hit...but a reversal is not required....
06-21-2003, 03:27 PM
youre right,jode,and if was gonna start over,thats how id do it. i added alot of pieces to beef up my front bumper in its current location,so i dont really want to cut it all apart and start over. the bumper is as close as it could be with the core support still present. now that it is gone,however,i cold prolly move my bumper back about 6" and put the shackle mounts on bottom of it.i should have waited,but i didnt really plan on adding the front part of the cage this soon,just sorta happened. hmmm, maybe next year ill be hurting enuff for projects ill cut it off and redo the frotn bumper/spring mounts :D
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