Diesel Grand Wagoneer???????

[jamie]

This is a copy of my post on the old IFSJA forum that Dan<iolaus@..... very kindly tells me that know-one visits now!
"This may be a dumb question, but was there or has there ever been a diesel Grand Wagoneer? pre 1991 model.
I'm from the UK and don't know the history of the Jeeps, but I saw a Grand Wagoneer when at the Zandvoort race circuit in Hollandand just fell in love with it (it was towing a race car not racing) but the problem we have here is gas is about 3 times more expensive than your current high prices and the cost of gas in the UK is guaranteed to rise.
Was there ever a common aftermarket conversion maybe? The other option we have is to convert to LPG (natural gas) but the tank takes up so much room.
Would I be correct in thinking that on tarmac a later model will give 8mpg if driven not too hard?
Any help with any of this will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Jamie Weidner
ps Dan mentioned that there may be an interest in LPG conversions, and from my experience Holland is the country in Europe that has embraced this with most enthusiasm (I think for tax reasons).

[ClarkGriswald]

I cannot answer the question of whether any FSJ's came with diesal's stock, but I have found that Advanced Adaptors makes the adaptors to put many different engines into just about anything, Im no expert but it seems to me that if you can put a smallblock chevy into a fsj, isnt there a gm diesal with this same bolt pattern like a normal 90 degree chevy block? or perhaps a ford or whatever. Just my two cents, but here is the URL for advanced adaptors.. you can order there catalogs from the website. http://www.advanceadapters.com. perhaps you can put a diesal into a fsj these folks would probably be able to answer your questions. hope this helps..

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88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[JERRY88GW]

A buddy of mine told me that GM diesles are the worst diesle engines you can get.

I trust the guy, but personally I have no clue.

Jerry

[ClarkGriswald]

yeah your probably right.. they are like a dryer full of rocks. heheh.. just was suggesting that cause I dont see to many options in the advanced adapters catalog that really pertain to this situtuation.. I was thinking mabye if you call them and talk to someone that knows what they are talking about. they could steer you in the right direction.. (yeah the gm diesals suck) ok for a beater plow truck. though.this man has a good point though .. michigan has been among the worst hit in this latest fuel thing, but nothing compared to what they pay in the UK. What is the price of diesel like there in the UK compared to gasoline???If I were you I would be looking to change over myself I dont blame you a bit, and more power to you. Im not an employee of advanced or something its just one of the better sources of info and parts for this type of thing that I have found.. I would try to call them or communicate thru email and see what they say about options for diesals. seems like this would be more practical than LP dont know what its like there but LP never really took off in america, except in the industrial (forktrucks ect...). I know that I really love driving my Grand Wagoneer, and pay for it at the pump. I can only imagine what your situation must be like.. "wish I could drive this more often but for the price of gasolene" Does your Jeep have the steering on the other side from us like you should have? I would love to see a picture of this hehehe..

Good luck.... Jason Serbenski

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88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[bigjeepguy]

As for diesels in fsj's, I would say that the frame would need significant reinforcing to deal withe the weight and the torque and the front end should be upgraded to a dana 60 for more housing strength, and if you use a cummins which is the best feasible diesel to use the whole drivtrain should be upgraded, the best donor truck would be a 1989-1993 w-250 or w-350, with these trucks a 5 speed is preferable for strength, and for mileage, I drive a 1993 D-250 with a beefed up Cummins that probably makes 230-240 rear wheel horsepower, and with a 4.10 rearend gets over 600 miles on 30 gallons of diesel.

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Jonathan landon
1973 J-4000 3602v ,TH-400
Dana20,Dana 44's

[Narnian]

GM Diesels up until a few years ago were nothing more than a small block with Diesel strapped on the top. They would fall apart because the bottom end wasn't designed for that much compression.

The big rig guys tell me the Ford Diesels are actually better than Cummins, but Cummins has been putting good reliable diesels in light trucks for many years now.

There is no conversion that is impossible. Diesel in a Wagoneer would work pretty good. If you chose a small motor, you might be able to keep your suspension and drivetrain. If your not into swapping stuff like this, it could get messy and cost more than you think, butit can be done and it can be done nicely.

In answer to your original question, I don't think they ever put Diesel in jeeps. Kaiser may have made a bunch like that for the US military in the 60's, but as far as I know AMC didn't have the resources to build Diesel, and never attempted to make put diesel in anything they sold to the public.

[scotty]

i think you guys are underestimating the strength of the wagoneer frame.come on-how much more can a desil engine weigh?if its really that much eavier,maybe some stiffer springs,but people hang plows off the fronts of these things and build up 401 engines.ive seen some big block chevys and chrysler engines in jeeps-it doenst get much heavier or torqueyer than a built chrysler 440.ive even seen v10s in wranglers! also,what do you want to do with this vehicle? do you want to put 4 slicks on it and propell it thru the 1/4 mile in 7 seconds? tow an ocean liner across country in 4wd? i think that for general driving and towing your frame and front end should be fine. if you really tow alot of heavy stuffa rear axle swap is probably a good idea,as is ditching the 229 trnsfer case that comes in grand wagoneers. there was a little article in one of the mags about a 4 cyl cummins turbo diesel in a 67 wagoneer.they used a th400 and 203 xfer case. they did a springover for oil pan clearance,and made a second crossmember to help support the xfer case(203 is very,very heavy),but they did not do anything to the frame,and used both the stock axles.

as has been said,anything is possible(440 into dodge omni,454 into geo metro) with enough of a sense of humor,time,and money. im not real familiar with trannies and xfer cases that came behind deisels in various makes and models,so be aware that if you go the whole drivetrain route,which is probably the best,in my opinion,you may have to swap in a 79 or earlier front axle to be able to use a xfer case that has a passenger side diff.

my $.02,anyway...

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scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[bigjeepguy]

From my knowlege of the 3.9, it has a terrible vibration, even compared to the 5.9, and as to the ford diesel the power stroke, or the old moldy 6.9 and 7.3 naturally aspirated diesels, these engines are better than the boat anchor Generally useless diesels from GM, all ford 7.3's I know of have a problem with cavitation erosion eating holes in the blocks. Also the powerstroke is a light duty engine, where as the cummins 5.9 is a medium duty, and is rated in the engine itself at 66,000 pounds, however I do think that for anything but extreme duty a ford diesel, turbo or not is acceptable, and as for keeping a drivetrain in one piece, I would recommend the ford. One last tidbit the Ford is lighter than the cummins, the cummins swap into 1989 F-250 dropped the nose about 2 inches.

[cbrandt]

I am in the process of doing a FSJ Cummins swap.... I have both a 6BT and a 4BT backed by TH475's (a beefed TH400). The 4 is a bit rougher than the 6 but it has a balance shaft system in the oil pan that makes it better than one without it. I have yet to decide upon the 6 or 4 but am leaning towards the 4. The 4 shouldn't require an axle up-grade like the 6 would. My next step is to decide which year GW to buy. A question for the Q-trac guys ? Is the TH400 the same bell housing pattern as a standard Chevy. I have the adapter to bolt up to the standard TH400. Finding a rig with Q-track and slipping in the overdrive gear set might let me get away without having to run an overdrive tranny. This might make for a pretty easy swap. I have been leaning towards a TH700R4 to get the deeper first gear and overdrive, but don't know what T-case would be compatable. Who has put a SBC 700R4 in an FSJ ? So many projects... So little time

Chris Brandt
Portland OR

[joe]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cbrandt:
[B]My next step is to decide which year GW to buy. A question for the Q-trac guys ? Is the TH400 the same bell housing pattern as a standard Chevy.

Chris, the TH400 used in FSJ's has a Jeep specific case and won't bolt up to a Chev motor.
Just to reduce a little confusion in your search...No GW ever ran a TH400. The name "Grand" Wagoneer was adopted in 1984 when the fancy version of the new XJ mini-series Cherokee got the old Wagoneer badge.
If you want a QT/TH400 equipped rig you need to look at 73-79 Wagoneers and J-Series trucks and 74-79 Cherokees. Also keep in mind that LO range was an option on the QT's so not all of them have it.
-joe

[Narnian]

I have the 700R4 in my Vette, and in my 87 GMC Jimmy (which is for sale if anyone is interested in downgrading from your FSJ!). It seems like a decent tranny, but most of the guys I've talked to said it's not a tranny for towing. I had the 700R4 in the Jimmy rebuilt at 185000, so it lasted a good long while, but it never had a big load on it either.

[Ray Stephens]

Jamie,
This is an idea I am toying with myself.
Some of the offroad vehicles I have seen built are using the 3.9 Cummins deisel with a modified GM 400 turbo trans. A turbo-charger is usually added to the engine for better performance. I understand in England and Australia some of the Land Rover owners have had some success using Perkins and even Isuzu deisels. They may be a good source for the pros and cons of any of this type of convesion.

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[cbrandt]

thanks for the info -joe. My 79 had Q-trac with the low range. I lived in Saskatoon Saskatchewan at that time and ran that thing for 4 months in the ice and snow...drove like it had a brain on ice. Nasty winter that one was.

I have read that the TH400 used for the QT has a different output shaft that is specific to the Jeeps. Has anybody rebuild a standard Chevy TH400 with the Jeep output shaft and tail housing. I am trying to bolt things up without paying for an adapter that seems to be priced about 2.5 times higher than it should be. Advanced adapters is very proud of the parts they sell. A couple of other ways to go would be to use the divorced 205 (Dodge style, pasenger side drop) that is sitting in my garage. Pick up a divorced Ford 205 for a drivers side drop. Or use an integral Chevy 205 with a pasenger side drop. I have not run a divorced T-case before, any reason to love or hate them ?

Anybody in the Nortwest have a ratty FSJ that I can prototype the conversion with ? Don't want to experiment on a good one just yet....

[scotty]

the only real disadvantages i see are extra cross members to support it,and the fact that it will make the rear driveshaft a lot shorter. also it will give you at least 2 more u jonts to worry about lubing and replaceng...



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scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[jamie]

Some great replies to the questions I asked but not the reply I was hoping for. If only there had been a small batch of factory diesels whatever the good/bad of individual components.
I don't have a Grand Wagoneer at the moment (but I will) even if it's only to put it in the centre of the living room and look at it.
Diesel as of today is $4.77 a US gallon and petrol prices are a few pence either side, depending on the company/area. We seem to have become used to these prices which are about 30/35% dearer than the majority of other European countries.
Still, getting a reply from Clark Griswald is probably the highlight of my summer as he is one of my all time heroes, thanks Clark.
There can only be a small number of personal imports of the Grand Wgoneer over here and also the various mechanicals you guys are talking about, which makes it impractical to even contemplate modification from this side of the Atlantic.Does anybody think that with the increasing fuel prices that diesel conversions make become more common to the extent that aftermarket companies will research and market them?
As was previously stated, many conversions were undertaken here on the Land/Rangerover variants, but from what some of my Rover owning friends have told me they are mostly very messy even if they work, although the factory recognised that many people wanted a 'good' diesel and introduced the TDI with small capacity (small block turbo intercooled to save weight?).
I'll be travelling the States with my wife this Fall in an old RV and will make some efforts to look more closely at the possibility of buying and shipping back to Europe. Are there any opinions on best model/motor/year range to look out for.
May I say thank you for all the help so far, it's also great entertainment.

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jamie:
Some great replies to the questions I asked but not the reply I was hoping for. If only there had been a small batch of factory diesels whatever the good/bad of individual components..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Jamie There was never any type of dsl in any FSJ.
Early 60ish CJ's had the Brit Perkins dsl. The 80's built for export CJ's ran a 2.4 Suzy dsl and the 86/87(?) XJ mini Cherokee/Wags ran the 2.1 Renault(junk)dsl Whoa...makes me shudder to even type the "R" word http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/frown.gif

The later/recent but not-FSJ, non-USA built Grand Cheros do have a VM(Italian) dsl option.

LPG(propane) isn't really an option here in the US either because it's not much cheaper than petrol and gets less mpg but where you live an LPG conversion may be something to look into. Dig around on this site maybe under LINKS/ and see if you can get to the ANZAC IFSJA site from Rod and Chris in OZ and NZ respectively. Rod runs a LPG FSJ and it works well. His email address should be on the site. If ya can't find it drop me a direct email and I'll dig it up for you.

-joe