Fuel in my oil

[SlickKipper]

Should I take off the intake, put on a new valley pan gasket, RTV all the valley ports, and flush the motor?


------------------
1989 Wagoneer,
K&N air filter
jeep pic (http://hometown.aol.com/hebbarts/myhomepage/photo.html)

"ahh, i love the smell of 11 year old differential oil in the morning"

[This message has been edited by SlickKipper (edited July 27, 2000).]

[joe]

Before you starting pulling manifolds off check the fuel pump. A common cause of fuel in the oil is a leaking diaphragm in the pump.
When the prob is solved change the oil. No need to flush it.
-joe

[SlickKipper]

I replaced the fuel pump a couple of weeks ago. The oil level was up to snuff, and now it's about 1/4" higher than the "ok" line, and it smells like gas again. I didn't replace the oil filter (it was just a few weeks old) when i refilled the system, but I wouldn't expect such a strong gas smell just from the residual gas in the oil filter. Regardless, the oil level has climbed significantly since i filled it, and that, i assume is gas.

Do you think I should do an oil flush & fill, and replace the filter again?

[GM Killer]

SlickKipper,
Check out my two previous posts on this subj:
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000016.html

and
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000477.html

Definatly check / change the fuel pump first !!!

------------------
Matt~
79 Cherokee Cheif Wide Trac
Transplanted 401 w/ Edelbrock Performer Package
TH400 / Q-Trac
4" Skyjacker Softride lift
3 inch bodylift
35" Mud T/A's
____________________
99' Mustang Cobra -
320 HP F-body eater
____________________
93 Mustang Coupe 4 Cyl
Soon to have a transplanted 351w homemade twin turbo set-up :)

[SlickKipper]

Well, I can pretty much rule out the fuel pump, and, from what I gather, the rings aren't going to be the culpret, so it sounds like what I should be lookin' into is this "float" gig.


:::::To the Haynes manual!::::::

[Veepster]

an easy way to see if the float is sticking is to remove the line going to your charcoal canister labeled "float bowl" this is a vent from the top of the float bowl....and if the float is sticking fuel will be coming out of that line...also if the float is sticking the motor would be running VERY rich..as the float level is an integral part of the fuel metering system.

------------------
Peace.............BartG

78 Chero
360 2v, 400 QT with low
almost drivable:
4" skyjacker
33x12.50 BFG KO's
Thorley headers, 3" exhaust
Infiniti power leather seats

[joe]

I still wouldn't rule out the pump. If you bought a rebuilt one it may be junk especially if you got it from one of the discount chains. For me anyway, when something goes weird shortly after I just "fixed" something I usually go back to what I "just fixed" and start there http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/smile.gif
-joe

[SlickKipper]

Checked the line from the canister labled "float bowl" and saw no traces of juice...

The fuel pump is new, but I'm going to check it out anyway.

::: http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/frown.gifBack) To the AutoZone!::::::

[This message has been edited by SlickKipper (edited July 27, 2000).]

[SlickKipper]

Back from the Autozone, and according to my shiney new fuel pressure gauge, it's doin' about 4 1/2 psi.

[joe]

Well I'm not sure what that means? It may be a weak/cheap pump or the diaphragm is leaking fuel into the crankcase?
Factory specs for the fuel pump on a 360 is 5 to 6.5 lbs.
-joe

[Veepster]

4.5 is close enough.....I would say it is working fine!

the guage may be off a pound.



------------------
Peace.............BartG

78 Chero
360 2v, 400 QT with low
almost drivable:
4" skyjacker
33x12.50 BFG KO's
Thorley headers, 3" exhaust
Infiniti power leather seats

[SlickKipper]

Dern Haynes manual had me all geeked up. It gives a range of 2.5 to 8 psi. Pisser. Well...geeze....

Now, what about this: When the engine's been sitting overnight, it'll stall if I throw it into gear w/o warming it up a good 5 minutes, and even then, when I give it some gas (in drive now) it feels like I've gotta give it more than your run-of-the-mill mamby pamby push on the accelerator, or else it'll hesitate. It's like it wants me to "strong arm" it with the gas, otherwise, it'll just kinda float around in "acceleration limbo" till it decides it's ready to ignite some $hit and go. Now, could it be that every time i accelerate, what i'm doin' is flooding the engine, which over time, and a week of city driving, could produce through the rings about a pint of gas in the oil?

[andy d]

why'd did you replace fuel pump in the 1st place? if symptoms are unchanged, look at the carpatator, check float height and needle and seat.sounds like it could be emptying float chamber overnight. that could be as simple as piece of crud holding needle valve open.

------------------
'88 gwag

[SlickKipper]

I replaced the fuel pump cause I thought it might help the fuel in the oil problem.

I'll look at the carb.

[SlickKipper]

Got some NEW info.
Here's the updated scenario.

Yesterday I replaced the oil & new filter.
I started up the Wag and let it idle 1 minute or so 5 or 6 times, and then I drove it to the video store 1 mile away and back, and that's it.
This MORNING, the oil level is, once again, about 1/4" above the "full" line, and it already smells like gas.

Any additional insight into the problem (in light of this info) would be profoundly appreciated.

-Kip

[River Beast]

You're on the right track... I hate haveing problems like this... I would rather have the engine fall out of the frame!!! http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/biggrin.gif

Anyway... fuel pump replaced...still same dilemma...hmmm... I deifinitely look into the carb as Andy said. If crud is holding up the needle form the seat, it will drain the bowls down thru the manifold and leak by the pistons and rings into the crank case. Is your carb stock or after market? the rebuild on the stock 2bl's are pretty straight forward... did mine in about a half hour. See if there is a way to check your bowls at night, after running, then check i again in the morning. Better yet... run it for a while (2-3 min) at night. In the morning, pull a plug, preferably 4,6,5 or 7 since thouse are most directly in line with the carb. You might be able to smell gas if you get your nose close enuf (hehe).Check the plug for wet fuel and even stick a long q-tip to rub the top of a piston and see if its wet... If so... you found your problem... rebuild time for the carb. Good luck!!!

------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's (soon to be 4.88's)
7" SOA conversion
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's on 15x10's
(soon 38.5x14.50's on 12's)
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life)
"Where there's a hill...there's a way!"

[Veepster]

hey TJ.....I am curious how it could be the needle and seat.......isn't the needle and seat on the top of the float bowl? if it was stuck open it would flood the heck out of the motor, but it shouldn't allow the float bowls to drain into the manifold....hhhmmm

and I agree with you...I would just go ahead and rebuild the carb!


what about a plugged return line to the fuel tank?

------------------
Peace.............BartG

78 Chero
360 2v, 400 QT with low
almost drivable:
4" skyjacker
33x12.50 BFG KO's
Thorley headers, 3" exhaust
Infiniti power leather seats

[River Beast]

Veepster,

The needle and seat are located at the bottom of the float bowl... if the needle was stuck open, you're right on the flooding issue. However, if the needle operates normally, and there is buildup of crud between the needle and seat... the rig will run as if nothing is wrong (may be a little rich). The crud will prohibit a good seal at shut down which will allow fuel to leak thru slowly but surely.

Another good indication of this scenario is hard starting in the morning with some good hardy rich black smoke....till she burns it away.... until the next long period of sitting.

Does your rig do this SlickKipper?

------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's (soon to be 4.88's)
7" SOA conversion
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's on 15x10's
(soon 38.5x14.50's on 12's)
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life)
"Where there's a hill...there's a way!"

[SlickKipper]

<<<"Does your rig do this SlickKipper?>>>

Only blows smoke when it's been sitting for a few days (It's an RV) and I try to start it without setting the choke and I (presumably) flood the engine.... Otherwise, it might be just a little tough to start it up after it's sat several days, but I couldn't say I ever fear it WON'T start, and it does need to warm up good or else it'll stall when I first put it into gear.

That sound like what you're talking about?

B/T/W: All this talk of rebuilds has got me wondering which'd be easier; Put'n on a whole new carb (ie. Edelbrock 600(?)cfm looks nice) or doin' a rebuild on the one I've got (Humbly, I've never done either job.)

-Kip

[This message has been edited by SlickKipper (edited July 28, 2000).]

[River Beast]

Kip,
You mentioned you replaced the fuel pump... you didn't mention if you had this problem prior to the new pump or just after the install of the new pump? If this all started after the new pump, I would take it back to the store and swap it for another one. There is a rubber diaphram inside the pump case that keeps the fuel and oil separated... if the diaphram is torn, ripped or improperly placed in the assembly of the pump, you will get fuel in the crank thru the diaphram.

If you had the problem prior to the new pump, you should make sure that the problem lies within the carb first. Nothing will tick you off more than replacing a part that wasn't defective in the first place.

What kind of carb are we talking about? OEMS like Holley, Motorcrap, Quadrajunk...(slight humor http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/wink.gif)... If you have a 4bl carb on there now and want to replace it... go for it. The edelbrock 600 cfm should work fine, depending on the size of the motor.

------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's (soon to be 4.88's)
7" SOA conversion
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's on 15x10's
(soon 38.5x14.50's on 12's)
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life)
"Where there's a hill...there's a way!"

[SlickKipper]

Riverbeast,
I was getting gas in my oil before I put the new pump on. I am now wholly convinced that the carb is the culpret.

What I'm looking at in carbs is a Edelbrock Performer. I have the stock 2bbl now, but last night after I read some past posts on the 4bbl carbs (All that talk of sloshin' gas and stalling out when off road) I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't just stick with an OEM carb.

-Kip

[SlickKipper]

Well, I tried pulling the plugs and checked for moisture this morning and found none. I think I've been running too rich, so I'm going to "lean it out" and see how that does.

If this doesn't do the job, it's new carb time.

[scotty]

i agree.its probably the carb. change the oil,drive it,pull that sucker offa there and sit him overtop of something that will catch the fuel that drains out. youll have to pull it very carefully,of course,not to spill the gas that in the bowl,but if youve got a little container full of fuel,and the same oil level the next morning,youve definately found your problem,and without spending money on blindly buying a new carb!

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickKipper:
What I'm looking at in carbs is a Edelbrock Performer. I have the stock 2bbl now, but last night after I read some past posts on the 4bbl carbs (All that talk of sloshin' gas and stalling out when off road) I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't just stick with an OEM carb.

-Kip<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kip,
I run the 1405 Edelbrock on my J-4000 and really like it. It's a basic carb, easy to work on, tune and keep tuned but I don't do any serious wheeling with it.
If you get the Edelbrock for serious offroad use get the offroad needles/seats package also. With the optional kit it's a pretty good carb offroad "for a 4V."
The OEM 2150 2V if in good condition and tuned is a really good carb.
But for really steep/off camber work IMHO any 2V carb is better than any 4V period. A lot less flooding probs with a 2v and for offroad you really don't need a 4V anyway.
Just my two cents...

-joe

[SlickKipper]

Well, I'm still gettin' gas in the oil. So, I'm going to put a new carb on. Called Edelbrock and they informed me (with fervor) that they didn't have anything street legal for my rig... They did say Holley had stuff that'd fit the bill, but I've heard the Holley's are hard to tune, and hard to keep tuned, and I've never put in a carb before, nor have I tuned one.

Does anybody know what'd be a good replacement (from Holley) of my stock carb?

------------------
1989 Wagoneer,
K&N air filter
jeep pic (http://hometown.aol.com/hebbarts/myhomepage/photo.html)

"ahh, i love the smell of 11 year old differential oil in the morning"

[This message has been edited by SlickKipper (edited July 31, 2000).]

[Ralph]

Jeep didn't have a 4-bbl carb as an option for Grand Wags. That's why Edelbrock doesn't have one that's completely legal. Not even Holley's 2-bbl carbs are 50-state legal, so why not just get a 4-bbl and not worry too much about absolutely strict emissions compliance?

Among 4-bbl carbs that have an electric choke and EGR port, your choices are an Edelbrock 1400, a Carter AFB 9635, or a Holley 80457s.

The thing is, I still don't understand how the carb itself could be responsible for fuel in your oil.

The most likely points of leakage would be the fuel pump (due to the diaphragm leaking), a crack in the intake manifold, or a lost of sealing integrity at the valley pan gasket. And it sounds as though you've been pretty thorough about checking your fuel pump. You might as well face up to the task of removing your intake manifold, making sure to check the condition of the metal heat shield riveted to its bottom, and replace your valley pan gasket just for good measure.

P.S.
There's a possibility that it could be a faulty PCV valve, as well, but that's a very remote possibility given the amount of fuel you seem to be taking in.

[This message has been edited by Ralph (edited July 31, 2000).]

[Ralph]

Here's an Edelbrock 1400 for auction on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=397745235

[SlickKipper]

I want a 4bbl carb (and an Edelbrock intake), but what do you suppose my mileage'll do with that Edelbrock 1400? I don't think I can tolerate gas mileage any worse than what I'm already getting...although, maybe an auxiliary tank would ease such a transition...

-Kip

[SlickKipper]

UPDATE: ( My Thread Lives...Again http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/eek.gif )

Read a book on carbs last night (today I remove the carb).

This is what's happening(?): The pressured gas btw the pump and the carb is depressurizing itself overnight by flowing into the carb, past the needlevalve, flooding the float bowl (and thus the venturi), then pours into the cylinders, through the cylinders and In(to) My Oil.

Do I got that right?

-Kip

[River Beast]

Yup....sounds just like the technical terminology of the stuff up top.

BTW... I have to admire your determination to REALLY dig for info... alot of people don't do that and "dive right in" to whatever it is. I have realized that it's all for the better to find out as much as you can before spending the $$$. PAys you back in the long run... let us know how it comes out...

------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's (soon to be 4.88's)
7" SOA conversion
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's on 15x10's
(soon 38.5x14.50's on 12's)
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life)
"Where there's a hill...there's a way!"

[SlickKipper]

Can't believe I didn't see this till now.

Folks, we got seepage.

This is the left/rear mounting nut as you stand in front of the car.

Enjoy http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/smile.gif

Could this explain the Fuel In My Oil?

http://members.aol.com:/hebbarts/seepage.jpg




[This message has been edited by SlickKipper (edited August 03, 2000).]

[FSJNut]

I think you are on the right track.
But instead of the needle/seat, I would
suspect the "power valve". It is located
below fuel level in the carb, and the diaphram in it could easily leak fuel overnight through the path you described.
I once had a Chrysler 440 that backfired and then would not crank. The engine sounded as though the piston was hitting the cylinder head. When I removed a sparkplug, fuel would pour out (the engine was hydro-locked). Replacing the power valve in the carb cured the problem.
Wish tou luck!


------------------
87 GW
88 GW
85 GW (on its way back from being a parts car)

[SlickKipper]

Contemplations As I Await The (Possibly Successful) Rebuild of My Stock Carb (By My Brother)

Ya know, I can't claim to know much of anything about carbs, but as my Waggy sits carb-less,
as an Edelbrock 600cfm sits on the shelf at the nearby Autozone,
I get to wondering some things,
and one of them things is this:

IF a stock 360 can run "too rich" on a Motorcraft 2150 carb
THEN what am I doin' thinking about "upgrading" to a 4-barrel 600 cfm with (presumably) a higher cfm rating than the 2150? What's a 4bbl really going to do if the engine's can't take in anymore air/gas?

This book I got here, it says the following:

"A 350 cubic inch engine that peaks at 8,000 rpm theoretically swallows 4,000 x 350 cubic inches per minute. One cubic foot is 1,728 cubic inches, so the nominal cfm is 4,000 x 350 / 1,728 =810 cfm.
If we assume a Volumetric Efficiency of 85%, we have to multiply the nominal cfm by 85%: 0.85 x 810 = 688. Thus, this engine needs a carb of somewhat less than 688 cfm; 650 cfm should be about right."

If I apply the following to our AMC 360, I come up with the following.
Assuming our 360 peaks at about 5,500 rpm, the formula is:

2,750 x 360 / 1,728 = nominal cfm of 573

573 x .85 (a volumetric efficiency of 85% seems generous, considering "most passenger cars have an 80% VE) gives us
487 cfm, and thus the engine needs a cfm of somewhat less than that, so, say a 450 cfm carb "should be about right."

Far as I can tell, a 4 bbl carb ain't gonna do much for the engine.

Am I wrong about this?
-Kip

[SlickKipper]

Oh I think I see what's goin' on here.

A lower cfm carb, while it CAN produce the same gas flow as a higher cfm carb, but the higher cfm carb will be less apt to "impede the inrushing airflow, resulting in a large pressure difference between the atmosphere and the inside of the cylinders at the moment the intake valve closes" when the throttles are wide OPEN...

right?

[SlickKipper]

Well, well, well...at long last, I believe the problem of fuel in my oil is OVER. Ran the Waggy last night to test the rebuilt carb and this morning i get nothin' but that sweet sweet smell a' pure 10W.

Truth be known, I believe the diaphragm in the power valve was the culprit. Before the gas showed up, I drove the Wag about 2 miles on a dying battery (blown voltage regulator) and i really had to throw some fuel into those cylinders, and the Wag got me home in fits n' starts, lurching as it groped for ignition, and I wouldn't be surprised if somethin' musta' misfired or somethin' puttin' some backfire pressure on that power valve then.

Anyway, my fsj thanks the many of you who assisted its novice owner in remedying the problem. I'm thinking it's going to be ready for the Michigan salmon runs this fall. Just have to bolt on that Flowmaster muffler and hi-flow cat and that'll be it.

Thanks again folks.

-Kip

------------------
1989 Wagoneer,
K&N air filter
jeep pic (http://hometown.aol.com/hebbarts/myhomepage/photo.html)

"ahh, i love the smell of 11 year old differential oil in the morning"

[ClarkGriswald]

Good job as far as researching the info and learning about what you are doing, that is everything. I am dealing with my 2150 right now as well. Just rebuilt it and still tuning.. I removed all of my emmisions crap and am dealing now with a GREAT running motor until it gets hot on a hot day and i have a lot of ping\knock. so I think i have to retard my timing at the dist now. need to get a light today. Anyway if you ever need help on stuff like that again Ive rebuilt tons of carbs over the years as well as other things. Im only an hour away from you so could lend a hand visa versa. Boy shure is nice to see some michigan's on this forum finally heheheh. Ive run into a guy from charlotte (MI) and from hudsonville on the sunday night chats.. sounds like an FSJ invasion of silverlake has to be in the works someday. hehe.. congrats on your carb success..

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!