What is so grand about a Wagoneer?

[Panoscopic]

I don’t want to become flame bait, but just ask an honest question and start a debate. We all love these cars, but lets get real – in their later days they were over priced, under-performing and incredibly unreliable. It is hard to believe this model lasted for 28 years, especially past 1980 when gas prices were at a record high, and people were standing at long lines at the pump and there were many, more sensible alternatives.


My wag, Panoscopic (bsweigert.tripod.com/Wagoneer.html) has been in our family since it was new. I have every document that associated with the car since it was delivered new, and two-inch thick pile of maintenance documents for the typical Wag maladies – rear window inoperative, leaking power steering pump, windows not working, rough idle, well, you know the drill. Seemed typical of what you would expect of AMC at that time, or any other car manufacturer ready to go bankrupt.

I remember when I borrowed the Wag for a weekend when it was new. I could not help but think that I could rent a compact car and the gas savings would pay for it versus driving the Wag.

Think of the price of these cars. The original sticker in 1986 was $23,465. In today’s dollars, that is at least $50K. For a 25 year old truck design gussied up with fake wood (which was a ‘70’s cliché and already out of style) and leather trim. Who would buy these kind of cars? Turned out they were doctors and professionals who bought these for second cars. But that price, who would put up with such poor quality? For that kind of money, you could drive a Mercedes Benz, Land Rover, or a Toyota Land Cruiser or two Chevy Suburbans. Frankly, if I had bought Panoscopic new, that would have been the last American car I would have owned, ever!

I was a person who was always attracted to German and Japanese sports sedans and always had these cars tuned to perfection. It seemed odd that I would fall for a car like the Wag, but there was just something about it. To this day, I can’t tell you why I like it.

When my Aunt traded up to a new Grand Cherokee, I said, “Don’t sell the Wag! I’ve got to have it”! The next day I was on an airplane to LA to drive Panosopic back to Chicago.

I put a lot of love and some dollars into getting Panoscopic nice. I tried to make her my daily driver, but alas, I love her only when I can deal with her on a part-time basis. The horrendous fuel economy and regular repairs that occupied my every weekend were just too much for me, and sorry to say, her 40 year old chassis just was too crude to deal with on a daily basis. Hey, and Panoscopic is a nice wag – 75K original miles and from SoCal!

But hey, I have to admit, she has a lotta class! You just don’t see them as nice as mine around here in the Midwest. Lots of people have stopped as asked me about it. Older folks tend to look on in approval – given the incredible model run, they can all remember them. The younger people just snicker as they blast past in their tuned Honda Civics.

I’ve now replaced Panoscopic with a new 2001 TJ as my daily driver. Yes, TJ is a crude road car too, but with modern build quality and engine control systems, it is a world of difference. I keep Panoscopic for occasional drives and weekend runs to the Home Depot, where her quaint antiquity is entertaining, not annoying.

Lastly, why do I call her Panosocpic? My favorite feature of the Wagoneer is the roof-line, and the rear pillar. In the 1963 debut at the Geneva auto show, the design was termed Panoscopic, referring to the panoramic visibility of the roofline. Being a child of the sixties, I can’t help but love it!

So, what do you like about your Wag?

[Unknown Jeep]

What do I LOVE about my Wag? It is Big, Ugly, Sucks down the fuel, handles like a Truck Rides like a caddy. Driving down the road I look over the **** box Econo cars and they don't pull out infront of me. I can haul Everything from my wife and kids to the nextdoor neighbors Washer/ Drier/ Refridge/ Wide screen TV/ Couch/ Toolbox/ Go off roading with any and all in Comfort and saftey. I don't worry about putting a Scratch in the paint, And have yet to even dent a fender rubbing it up to a tree.

Name anything that will do as much, Easy to work on, and does not look like the Jelly bean popcans that the Big 3 are putting out in the last 15 years? Yes we still have to jump through hoops getting parts, Finding shops that know how to work on them, and Are 50's design.

Find another truck that has this much following, this much Tech help, and ANY group that has this many members....

Troy
Elf in Tampa ;)

[solar@clnk.com]

A Jeep Grand Wagoneer is PURE CLASS!!!

Comparing a Jeep Grand Wagoneer to later SUV's, including post 1991 Jeep Wagons, is like comparing a fine steak to a hamburger!

A Jeep Grand Wagoneer DOES turn the heads of young folks. It reeks with Quality!

A Jeep Grand Wagoneer cruises on ice and snow like no other vehicle!

A Jeep Grand Wagoneer is Good, Solid, Safe, Reliable transportation.

Riding in STYLE in a Jeep Grand Wagoneer is well worth the extra gasoline it consumes!

People who own a Jeep Grand Wagoneer are the salt of the earth!

Go Here and LQQK at the line-up AND the prices that pristine Jeep Grand Wagoneers fetch! If you don't own one, WE FEEL SORRY FOR YA!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.wagonmaster.com/complete.htm

Mike :D

[Stuka]

Well.....while I dont own a Wag.... doo own its more "sporty" 2dr version...a Cherokee smile.gif

And I love it. Its my daily driver...I can beat most cars to 60 with ease....I get alot of looks from people who dont know what it is....I can tow anything.....Haul anything that willl fit in the back.....can go through 2ft of snow with ease....go wheeling just fine....and i get almost the same gas milage as a new grand cherokee with a 4.7L, with the added bonus of having a good deal more power smile.gif

So again..what is there not to love?

[Bob Barry]

As much as I love my GW today, I have to agree that back in 1989, when I *was* looking for a new car, even if I could have afforded a new GW (which, as a newly-married grad student, I couldn't) I wouldn't have bought one. I mean, c'mon, a 25-year old design, for over $25,000??? Running a carburetor? I think the only other things with carbs at that point were the base cheapo Civic and Subaru Justy (more in my price range).

I didn't know much about the GW's, but considered them antiquated, in a bad sense.

Now, though, the appeal is obvious. On Saturday, I took our three usually-installed car seats out of our GW to take three colleagues up to Boston for a meeting on Saturday. Then on Sunday, I folded that rear seat down and hauled home and back an overseeding machine that I rented to do the lawn. Then the seats were back in so my wife could take the girls out shopping for groceries today.

Did I mention that among all the bills I have to pay this month, NONE of them are car payments? And the only work it has required in the last two months has been adding oil?

[reddog]

I know the reputation GWs have as being unreliable but the two I have owned have not been bad in that department at all for thier age/milage. Yes they have the "list" of items but looking at those they are really minor. Figuring the cost I think they compare with just about any newer SUV. Sure the Caddy(Tahoe) and the MB, Lexus or Range Rover are sure nice but at a price $$$ - if that is your "type", but I believe that by the time they are 14-15 years old like my 87 they will be a bigger PITA to fix and have just as much go wrong with them as any GW.

The fact that waggys have been around so unlong and changed so little in that time says alot about the original design and functionality. Yea the milage sucks - but the newer SUVs suck too!

If your wag has only 75K on the clock then what kind of weekly repairs does it need?? Yes it is "crude" but that is part of its "charm".

The one thing I find very interesting is after reading the thread on what occupations the members around here have that there is ALOT of well educated highly inteligent people that love thier Wags/Cheros. The quality of the people at this site also speaks volumes about the FSJ charm. I would put this group up to ANY group on the web in respect to their ablilty to bring diverse backgrounds and views to the table here and to exchange such great info in such a reasonable and polite manner.
While I would have a hard time putting my finger on what it is about these vehicles other than their off road ability, versatility, the classic lines, its onroad drivability, the longevity of the drivetrain I do know that NOTHING in the price range can match it - except maybe for gas milage :D. Hey - IT'S A JEEP THING - if you need it explained to you - you wouldn't get it anyway. JMHO

Kerry

[Joe H.]

When I got my first FSJ, I was transitioning from my first new car ever: a 1991 Geo Tracker 2wd that blew up (the head--literally!) after 162k trouble-free miles. I was dirt-poor, darn near homeless and bartending odd shifts to eat. I'd always wanted another CJ (had one when I was 16--bad move) but couldn't find one in my very low price range. I looked for Scouts, early Broncos, you name it. Everything that wasn't a basket case was at LEAST $5000.

Then I saw it: a 1978 Cherokee Chief, sitting in a front yard with a big "for sale" sign on it! I sold the now-blown up Tracker (best car in the world--I will hear no bad vibes cast upon it!) and grabbed the Chero.

The day I bought it I had to install a water pump...like, REAL FAST!!! That started a chain reaction of repairs--you know the old saying about 'breaking the seal.' Anyway, I got broke again and had a p*ssy landlord who objected to my non-moving Cherokee sitting in the back of my apartment. Tried to sell it, it rebelled and the prospective buyer went home unhappy (sorry, Daniel!). Got that fixed, tried to drive it to Auburn, CV joint let go and took a nice chunk out of the tranny pan with it (sorry again, Daniel!). Finally sold it, and nothing else broke. I think it didn't want to go.

Anyway, I'm now driving a '91 Wag and I miss that Chero! It was perfect for me: basic transportation that would go flat anywhere, and the gas mileage was decent for the type of vehicle. If I stayed out of the secondaries, I got around 14 mpg WITH A 401!!! Now that I'm steadily employed again, I've been looking around for another Cherokee. Guess what: people ain't sellin' 'em. I don't really like the Wag--it's too plush, too geared for lux runs to the country club and grocery store and soccer practice. It just doesn't LOOK right.

COuld I as a starving college student have picked a better vehicle? Sure, if your definition of better involves economy. I wanted to drive a vehicle that made me grin every time I grabbed my keys, and that's what I ended up buying.

Jeeps are very basic vehicles at heart. They were designed and built at a time when people did a large part of their own maintenance and repairs. They didn't offer computers because they weren't needed--the Grand Wag was never about economy, it was about a serious American alternative to the Range Rover class of lux-utes. This was a field Jeep pioneered, and they're now looking at getting back into it.

To this day, I have people (the ones who laughed earlier) come up to me and ask what happened to 'that cool old Jeep' I used to have. When I tell them that it's gone, they shake their heads and say, 'too bad.' My feelings exactly. I never wanted a Wagoneer--I actually don't LIKE leather seats! If I wasn't still paying on this one I'd look for someone to swap with.

Having said ALL that, I can identify with your point of view. However, that same argument can be extended to Mustangs (another American classic), Hummers (and I couldn't agree more!), BMWs (sorry, Andy!), Mercedes et al.

[jeepbob]

If you think Wags, even at the end, were bad, you have not compared them to the other rigs in thier class. Just try to find a Blazer or Bronco (full size on both). My step son has an 89 Blazer and my brother has an 88 Bronco and they both have to spend a lot more on maintaince than I do and thier rigs do not wheel, ride, or drive as well as my 65 does and my Wag is a lot more solid than either. The Wags also have a lot more style than either.

[Chero77]

In a lot of ways, I agree with Panoscopic. I cannot imagine why anyone would have bought one of these beasts new in the late '80s. They were extremely overpriced with dinosour technology. I mean like a three speed automatic and a balky feedback carb in '89. And how about those solid axles front and rear. Maybe Chevettes, Justys and a few other econo cars sported this kind of equipment, but not much else.

On the other hand, what may have been a horrible new car, can make a nice project or second car. A lot depends on what you plan to do with it. If you think your going to buy a 25 year old car and use it as a daily driver your in for a big headache. Driven daily, I think anything this old (unless its been thouroughly rebuilt) is going to break down fairly often.

However, if its a project or a second car, it can be a fun vechicle. Which is why I own mine. I like my '77 Chero, because I think its one cool looking truck. Appearance wise it could have been made in '67 which is about when most people think it was made. Yes, it does all kinds of things that I would never tolerate in a new car, but in the old Chero I call it charm. Also, I've rebuilt mine to the point where its quite reliable. Note, I said reliable, not comfortable. Now that its in shape, I find myself driving it to work from time to time and on weekends just going out to drive for the sake of driving. I guess these old cars are an acquired taste. The FSJ's time has come and gone, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun to own, restore, hotrod, build for offroad, customize, or even lower (if that's your thing) and heck even drive.

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Dave _S ]

[porchpiggy]

I'm gonna stick my neck out a little, so please don't flame me too bad. Anything you can do in a Wag you can do better in a Suburban. Except off-road. To me the Wag is just the right size. Big enough to haul and pull, but being just a little narrower and shorter than the Sub has it's advantages on the trail. Not a short wheelbase, but not too long. A little bit quirky, but that only adds it's personality, and I have to admit I find it more attractive because not everybody on the block has one. Yea, it's a jeep thing, and I understand, because I have one. It's easier to park too, according to my wife. :D

[jasonthomasfrance]

I like my wag... I was given an 81 Dodge Aspen when I was 17. I got it stuck in the snow alot (MN). It was rear wheel drive and BIG.

Then I joined the USAF and went to Iceland. I bought a russian Lada. It was rear wheel and very small. But still a four door. After my high school days and piling in cars, I wanted a 4 door to fit people in. I wrecked the Lada (lada-Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley) in the snow. It was fun to drive though...

So I went to Australia, didn't have a car. Then came to Texas. After five months of walking I went over my price range in a Tracker. After 6 months of payments I got in a wreck...

Then I went looking for a Jeep. Always wanted one. Hated getting stuck. Wanted something big enough to fit people into. Bought a little Cherokee XJ. Too small. And I rolled it.

Then finally bought a 76 Waggie. Did I mention I know nothing about mechanics? This Wagon is teaching me. And it's my daily driver. It's solid and roomy.

It is a jeep thing, I do like the older 'burbans though. If one had been available for 1000 or so I might have got it...

It's a jeep thing... Whatever... How much more American than a Jeep? And the name is fun to say. Jeep Jeep. Like a Mustang, except off-road. The images that come to mind when the name Jeep is spoke.

I'm 24 and my other friends have massive car payments. And I work on the Jeep on the weekends. I think it's a fair trade. (i also own a 89 subaru as the "saver" vehicle when the jeep won't take me to autozone ;) )

[tuckers89GW]

well, I'd bought mine for a daily driver. Until I bought the racer, I drove it 100 miles day most days. I am paid milage so it more than paid for my gas. I have never had a problem that would leave me stranded.

I think the alot of the appeal to them is their styling. Not everyone has one. Today look at all the designing that returns memories of yesteryear. Functionality is another large appeal. This is my second wag and I'll have more or keep this one. I've only been stuck once with it in the snow and it wasn't the jeeps fault. 4' snowdrift 1/8 mile long is just a little too big for a stock vehicle.

Personally I would rather work on my GW once a month than have large car payments on a new one. Which I also have. The wife drive a new Windstar and $500 payments month are huge, but it still has problems. I've had 3 recall on it in the last year. Fixing a GW will always be easier than fixing any new vehicle. all that computer crap just takes too much $$$ for the diagonstic tools. Yeah they are designed with WWII techinalogy and were very overpriced in the later years to make it a good buy, but they did sell. I would love to have had a new one. anyway

[Dan]

Here's my story. My wife and I have a Pontiac Bonneville which is fine car to get around town in, but I needed a second vehicle when we both need to work or whatever. I've gone through several different cars, all about 10-20 years old, and they all required a good amount of work. The problem was that I just didn't like driving these POS cars around. The thought of working on them and pouring money in them to keep 'em running just was not appealing whatsoever.

So, I decided to get a truck or SUV. A 4x4 that was older, but still had some modern luxuries. I was looking at early-mid 80's Broncos. But then I passed an 85 GW for sale on the side of the road on a fishing trip, and checked it out. I passed on buying this particular one, mainly because the PO had ripped out all of the A/C and the price was kind of high, but it began my search.

I found one out of state and drove 1,000 miles to bring it back. Now, I can say that I actually enjoy working on this thing. I never thought I could like working on a vehicle besides my Mustang. But it's easy to work on, and I like the feeling I get when I drive this thing around. The list of items to be fixed goes on and on, but I don't really care. I'm paying less on parts than I would on monthly payments.

I don't think I really answered the question of why I like my GW. I've always liked these trucks for some reason. I think it is because of, not in spite of, the classic 60's styling (I also own a '66 convertible Mustang). I like the luxury items that you could get. Power everything (when they work). The same things that also makes our Bonneville nice to drive in town. Plus, it has some guts, can go places that others can't, and is built solid. Who knows, it's mysterious. And in MN, I never see any FSJ's. I could go for a few months and not see another around. When I do, they're mostly rusted out. I kind of like sticking out a little sometimes!

I am so glad that I found this forum with all of it's wonderful people ready to share their passion and help. You all have also made my work much easier and enjoyable.

[BigTex]

I bought my GW this past February when on a business trip to Boston. I'd been renting a brand new 4-Runner to the tune of about $500 bucks a week and was restricted from taking it off paved road :confused: So I picked up the local paper looking for some kind of junker 4X4 that could handle the snow and an occassional logging trail on the rock bound coast. The only thing I could find was my now beloved '89 GW with 126k miles, a couple of corner dings, but otherwise in great shape. I figured that for the $2500 price that the original owner was asking, I could bang around for the remainder of my trip and then sell her and have driven it for free. FAT CHANCE - I fell in love. :D

Yeah the tailgate window has been a problem, (rebuilding it now). The back seat windows are slow.. I have the same problem with my '94 Caddy.

Gas mileage? I just took a trip from D.C. to Texas and back and averaged 15.4 MPG on the road - not really all that bad - I've done worse with Blazers and Subrubans from the same era.

Rust? Ok, so there's some underside rust, checked out a 80's vintage Ford lately?

When I bought it, I thought that they were rare, but when I got home I found that there were 5 more in my small neighborhood. I just hadn't paid any attention before - now we all wave in passing.

I've named her "Hannibal" - originally in honor of the Carthaginian general famous for crossing the Alps with Elephants - although I've come to believe that the $ upkeep may also closely track that of owning an elephant, but hey, I'm a pet loving guy. And where else can you find a really butt ugly vehicle that will draw so much attention - it's almost PT Cruiser Retro.

My other cars are the afore mentioned Cadillac and a '93 Corvette. When I want to do 160 MPH on the highway, I drive the Vette. When I'm on the way to the opera, I'll go in the Caddy - but when I want to pull a house off the foundation, haul a trailer, climb rocks, punch through the woods on a logging trail or see above the crowd on the Beltway - Hannibal gets the nod.

Why do we love them? Hey, why do we love our wives and kids? I don't even try to do "Why" questions when it comes to love - it just is, and that's enough. ;)

[Erix Jeep]

I am now driving my second FSJ. My first was a '78 Wagoneer in the midwest so had all the typical rust probs. I did a SOA and flipped the shackles, put on a set of 31x10.5 mud tires and went wherever I wanted to go! That truck had the 401 QT combo, it was definitely a hoss. I could, and did, pull 6-7 thousand pounds with it, throw all kinds of tools in the back, and then flip up the seats and carry passengers in relative comfort.

When I moved to CA, I bought an '82 Toyota 4WD pickup and enjoyed it, but didn't like the lack of power and no AC. So I traded it for this '85 GW and love it! Now I have power windows (Sometimes), power door locks (Sometimes) and comfy seats, cushy ride, yet can still haul more than I could fit in the Toy!

Why do I love these gas hogs? Because they do everything I want to do, and yes it is my daily driver. My gas bill is nearly $150 a month just for the GW, not including my wife's car. But I don't have a car payment! It has character, and just "feels" right when I drive it. I have a great view of the traffic around me, and the power to go where I want to. Some people in this area wonder if I am really poor or something to drive such a vehicle, but I didn't buy it for them, I bought it for me. And personally, I love it! :D :D :D

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panoscopic:
It is hard to believe this model lasted for 28 years, especially past 1980 when gas prices were at a record high, and people were standing at long lines at the pump and there were many, more sensible alternatives.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It was a tried and true design that worked for what it was intended to do. Folks that bought these when they were new had money and didn't care what gas costs...they could afford it. It was targeted for a small market nit for everyone. Yup it was targeted to the rich older crowd just as a Porche is targeted to the younger rich crowd. These weren't planned to be sold to young poor college kids living on Top Ramen noodles.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I have every document that associated with the car since it was delivered new, and two-inch thick pile of maintenance documents for the typical Wag maladies – rear window inoperative, leaking power steering pump, windows not working, rough idle, well, you know the drill. Seemed typical of what you would expect of AMC at that time, or any other car manufacturer ready to go bankrupt.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because it's been to the dealer a lot doesn't mean it's been well maintained. Dealers thrive off repair work and will keep the process going as long as possible. So far as the rear windows, electric stuff goes that's not an AMC thing but a luxo cruiser thing. Any car that has a lot of power stuff will have power stuff fail. I've owned two Blazers and had the same prob with the rear window. It's inherent to the design where the window/gate is bathed in road dirt all the time.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I remember when I borrowed the Wag for a weekend when it was new. I could not help but think that I could rent a compact car and the gas savings would pay for it versus driving the Wag.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again this vehicle wasn't targeted to people who need to borrow cars...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Think of the price of these cars. The original sticker in 1986 was $23,465. But that price, who would put up with such poor quality? For that kind of money, you could drive a Mercedes Benz, Land Rover, or a Toyota Land Cruiser or two Chevy Suburbans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I doubt the cost of living has doubled in 15 years but even so you ever price a decked out luxo 4x4 Suburban or a Range Rover?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I was a person who was always attracted to German and Japanese sports sedans and always had these cars tuned to perfection.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your not exatly in the target market. You like fine tuned street cars. Nothing wrong with that at all but it would be like me whos loves to go hunting and buying a Honda Prelude?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
The horrendous fuel economy and regular repairs that occupied my every weekend were just too much for me
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You take "any" 5000 lb 4WD vehicle and compare the fuel mileage to a Wags. A loaded 4x4 Suburban, full size truck etc and they won't get any better. It take fuel to move this much weigh with this many gear boxes.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
The younger people just snicker as they blast past in their tuned Honda Civics.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keeping in mind the intended market...I'll bet the Civic folks quite snickering when the Wag turned off on a rutted muddy dirt road leading to the owners summer cabin. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I’ve now replaced Panoscopic with a new 2001 TJ as my daily driver. Yes, TJ is a crude road car too, but with modern build quality and engine control systems, it is a world of difference. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You've now got a car that has even more electro wizardry(wait till the dash shorts out), weighs 2/3 less, less room, less comfort etc and you gaind what 3-4 mpgs and car patments?
Not knocking your TJ at all but they too have their glitches and they can be expensive glitches.
Bottom line is FSJ's were built for a certain market and obviously you aren't in that market nor was I when these were built. Actually I'm still not in that market group that's why I run the earlier rigs that are more utility oriented rather than focusing on luxury. I don't like fixing all that elecro stuff either smile.gif

[trickc]

Along the same lines as everyone else who has responded,I am on my 3rd fsj. I sold my first new vehicle I had ever purchased after the payments were done and had some spending money, started out looking for a cj but none in the "reasonable" price range were available. I responded to an ad for a 79 cherokee with "bented" fenders for $1000. later that day I drove it home with small dents in the flairs where the guys wife had hit the garage trying to park it.
As late as 91 I wanted one but certainly wasn't close to being able to afford one. The gas mileage issue: eh who cares,I'm going to buy gas anyway,I might as well have something that can pull the house down. I drive Buttercup every day as my daily driver back and forth to work while I'm making payments still on f 150 x cab xlt with all the bells and whistles BUT, I just like driving the old beater better. My Cherokee well its just a plaything now, if it weren't for alreday having the lockers and winch and all I'd cosider trading it for a waggy to ride the family around.

[JohnnyJ]

As another TJ and SJ owner (I've noticed there are a lot..), I would say the vehicles are completely different in their purpose. I drive the TJ to work everyday, and it has been on the trails more often due to the fact the Wag is in a state of constant upgrading. (It usually isn't broke, I just want it to be better.)

Sure, the TJ does great on the trails and rides decently on the road. It also has a big car payment and I know that one day it will start needing repairs; everything does when it gets older.

But, it is so ****ed cool driving a Wag down the road; and taking it on the trail is even better. Fitting four adults and their stuff is nice, the plush ride, more than enough power, etc.

I love the fact that last year when we took the Wag to Kentucky we were able to load my trail tires and my friend's trail tires in the back of my Wag, plus my camping gear, plus my tools and gitchaback box. The Wag didn't even notice.

This year, I am going to Tellico with the TJ, and I had to buy a small trailer to tow the tires so we can fit the rest of the stuff in the Jeep. It just ain't the same.

Yes, there are days that I curse my Wag, but I can't imagine wanting to get rid of it. It has a certain charm that the new Jeeps (and all other SUVs) just haven't captured.

Plus, take a look at the competition. Most of the US trucks designed in the early 60s were the same until the late 80s and early 90s. (Dodge early 60s thru 93, Chevy early 60s thru 87) They all just changed the sheet metal and seats.

[Jake_S]

My '84 GWag is my first FSJ. I bought her last Sept for $900. She had no emission equipment, stock carb, and a clogged cat with a holy tailpipe. I bought the Wag because I was tired of making payments, I had Subaru Impreza RS, and payiny $550 dollars every 3 months on insurance. The Wag was cheap, it's paid for, I lke working on it, and it hasn't broken down yet(knock on wood). I've replaced the carb and intake, put on a new exhaust, a new back window, and a new set of tires, all for lees than 3 of my old car payments.
Jake_S

[Hump]

I hear alot of bashing of the GW's reliability going on here. I don't know if I was just lucky, but my first FSJ was a nine year old '87 GW that I bought my junior year in high school. (that I will discuss shortly) Of course the windows would act up occasionally, and every once in a while I wouldn't hit the gas just right, and I would have to wait five minutes to start it. But in the year and a half that I owned it, it never let me down. I always got where I wanted to go...always. Even when I noticed a slight knock and checked it with a timing light, to my horror finding it at 49 deg., it still ran, and got me where I needed it to go.

Ok, back to me buying it when I was in high school. I don't know what kind of kids you live around, but I bought my because a buddy of mine had an '86 GW and it was the coolest thing around. We were both on the cross country team together, and between us could fit the entire guys and girls team in our Jeeps. (uhh...that's strickly off the record for you legal types) Everybody wanted to ride in the back with the window down. The shag carpet and the leather seats, power everything...need I say more. I only wish that college wasn't so danged expensive or I would still have that beast.

I've heard it said that it's something about the lines. I bought my second FSJ a '89 GW at a junk yard while I was picking up parts for my Volvo wagon (great cars too...but i'll save that for another forum) I saw it sitting there it had taken a hard hit well, and decided that I had to save it. Well $1300 later I had everything I needed to fix it (door, t-case, front spring, q-panel, grill...etc.) and I found that a majority of the rear frame was non existent. So I just enjoyed seeing it in my parents driveway until my dad made me get rid of it. The new owner has put a new frame under it, and has restored it with all of my parts. Makes me happy anyways.

Guess it is just a Jeep thing.

[Mikel2]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe H.:
, it was about a serious American alternative to the Range Rover class of lux-utes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no, no. The Range Rover (and derivatives) were an alternative to the Wagoneer! smile.gif

[Dive 30]

Let's also remember what things were like when G-wags were in their prime.

You want an econobox? Honda or Toyota? I don't know where you guys grew up, but in Pierce, if it didn't come from Detroit (my Dad's '83 Cavalier was barely acceptable because it came from Canada) it should have stayed on the boat. Would you rather have a Pinto or Gremlin? Cavalier? Citation? How about an Escort or Reliant K car? Oh, wait you said safe and reliable . . .

Trucks? The paint on GMs were literally peeling in the dealer lots. The S-10s were POS (My step-dad had a New '85 Blazer, we couldn't keep it out of the shop, my Uncle had a GMC S-1500, same thing) and heaven forbid you be cursed with one of the new 'shift on the fly' 4wd, those vacuum systems are worse than the ones on our Jeeps and they haven't stopped making them!! Or how about the digital (My step-dad traded his Blazer for a new '88 K-1500, when the heat/AC/radio/everything unit went out the third time, he decided to buy a Ford) dashes of the late '80s?

When I pulled in to the Jeep dealer here in Coralville he came out to look at my G-Wag. He says: "Yeah, I remember people just driving in with their old one and just picking out a different color for their new one. Craziest thing you ever saw."'

The G-Wag was a steadfast vehicle when everything else was changing. There is a measure of comfort in knowing what you are going to get, good and bad.

My '85 G-Wag is paid for. When I go out in the morning, every morning, it starts. When things go wrong (ever dreamed of changing the belt in a Honda, Toyota or Mitsu? on my '88 Civic you had to literally drop the motor) I get out my manuals, spend some money on a part get it done. My Mom's 2000 Exploder has been in the shop four times this year (New tires twice, new transmission, ignition problem that they still haven't fixed) and she only gets 14-18mpg. Or how about $250.00 for the remote oil lines on my Dad's '96 Blazer? My step Dad's 2001 F-150 4x4 was rated the absolute worst in overall safety by the American Insurance Institute becuase it suffered "severe to fatal compromise of the passenger compartment in collisions under 35mph." No thanks.

I've got AC, Tilt, Cruise, Power Everything, Leather, trail-ablility and drive ability (I love the look on my Mom's face when I can make turn-arounds that she can't). Where else could you have or can you get the same package? At least in CO, every 'Burban in the world if it runs, goes for 5+g's, my G-wag was $350.00.

That is and what was so Grand.

[Stuka]

OK.....

few thinsg here.

1: Suburbans are WAY bigger then a wag. they are about 1.2ft wider (body wise) and a good deal longer (ever parked next to one?)

2: I could name ALOT of cars that came with carbs up until 91 (after that they wouldent pass california emissions)

3: The 2001 Ford f150 scroed poorly in that test where they said "near fatal colision" because it has a narrow framme up front. That test was a corner crash, so the frame wasnt there to take the impact. This is why the tundra did well, it has a wider front frame. But in a straighthead on colision the F150 did very well. Dont go by everything that is on the news, please try to do research ahead fo time.

4: Somebody mentions having solid axles up front is 'old tech"....well..it is...but....ford and dodge still use solid axles up front.....why you ask...because they are better. IFS does NOT flex...PERIOD! When a tire goes upp the camper is lost,, which also results in bad understeer under cornering. Plus our solid axles have very few parts to go bad.

5: Where these rigs over priced...yes....where they poorly built...no.

Treat your truck right and it will not break down (as much) on you smile.gif

[Joe H.]

Hey fellas...let's keep the heat down, shall we? :D Pano has a good point--every one of us has heard "Why the h*ll do you drive THAT old piece of cr*p!?!?!?" from friends, parents, spous-ii or significant others. Thoreau said "An unexamined life is not worth living" and I think that same statement can be applied to FSJ ownership as well.

I was thinking about this--being single allows much time for deep thought--and I came to this conclusion: you can 'own' any car. When you buy a Jeep you commit to a relationship with a vehicle that is basically ingrained in every American male (and many females, too). The Norman Rockwell picture of classic Americana ALWAYS includes some guy wrenching on his Hudson or whatever in the barn. It's a statement of pride and comfort in one's own ability to master a mechanical object. It's like Zen and the art of Jeep maintenance, in real life.

I've had some great thinking sessions while brushing undercarriage grunge off my face. I've reached insights into the way I look at life sitting at my workbench polishing some little doohickey 'just because' it will look better buried amidst the other grease-encrusted parts on my FSJ. These vehicles aren't merely transportation for us--they're a statement about who we are, and what we value.

Case in point: my old bar manager indebted himself to the eyebrows for a '98 BMW 528, yet he NEVER WANTED TO DRIVE IT!!! Anytime he went to the beach or whatever, he flew because he felt that driving there was boring and too slow. For me (I'm guessing for y'all too) the drive IS the point as much as the destination. I can't see having as much of that feeling in an Accord, or even in a new F150/Durango/whatever. Plus, if the pavement ever runs out...

[reddog]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe H.:
Hey fellas...let's keep the heat down, shall we? :D Pano has a good point--every one of us has heard "Why the h*ll do you drive THAT old piece of cr*p!?!?!?" from friends, parents, spous-ii or significant others. Thoreau said "An unexamined life is not worth living" and I think that same statement can be applied to FSJ ownership as well.

Edited for length..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


While I see that there is a little warmth here I don't think it is because of offense to Ps post. I think that it reflects the passion we feel towards these beasts.

Kerry

[Hump]

I'll second that.

Thanks Panoscopic for giving us an avenue for explaining that passion.

[Unknown Jeep]

I for one was not flamming PAN, I agree that these beasts that infect us are not the best thing on the roads. You got All kinds of cars trucks and Vans that can do this that and the other. However, Everything on the roads has it's problems. Be it Rust, Poor Trannys, lacking power, Electrical head cases....But Try to really work on the new crap and you need a PHD and $5000 worth of "tool numbers", computers, big deep pockets for insurance/payments/maintance.

3 days out of Warranty you can lay bets that the ABS brake computer will die, you fix it and a Fuel injector croaks... "bing $80"
I can rebuild my carb for $20.

Now that these "Overpriced outdated trucks" are outdated, parts are cheap and plentiful, we have a network that knows what parts are cheap and what will and wont work.

I work on some of these new "over priced, Techno jumbles" Lets take one I know well. $50,000 Caddy luxo SUV... Full time 4WD, Electro everything (including power FOLDING mirrors) they put the ONSTAR in it because they know it will break down or run out of fuel. They got all this new Fangled EFI, computers, Computer controlled ride...ETC ETC ETC.. The stupid Shocks have Servo motors in them... $300 Each shock... With the EFI and the computer is still only gets 14MPG on the Freeway...Heck my 69 waggy does that good... (best yet 14.1MPG)

Troy
Elf in Tampa :rolleyes:

[Ralph]

Wow! You guys are really venting your passions here!

In addition to all the reasons stated above, I can also say that I've got so much invested in my Grand Wag, financially and personally, that I think it would be foolish to get rid of it now.

[Lindel]

One last thing, would you really take any of these newer, "better" 4x4's (that you had to pay extra to get, by the way. Assuming, of course, that you got 4wd to begin with) out on a trail of any kind?

I wouldn't want to spend $50K on anything to damage it on the trail. My cherokee is trail worthy, in stock trim, more so than any modern day "SUV". Get's roughly the same mileage (13.5, combined city and highway), and does this with a carburetor, no computer, a three speed standard, and 31" tires.

You can have the new SUV's, they're ugly, and their momma dresses them funny. They are overpriced, overvalued, and under-functional.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

I was wondering about this subject the other day as I was trying to get my 89 GW out of the woods. I lost a rear axle, due to a wheel bearing letting go. This subject has me about P-O'ED as possible 2000 miles on it. I was wondering why I keep messing around with this old JUNK! WHY WHY WHY! I have no clue none, none at all. I do know I will fix it again, and await the next problem to show itself I know it will. I drive it with pride because on a warm day all the windows go down and with a little manual help come back up, when it is cold only the drivers window works with help. This is a good thing, because it is to cold to have the windows down anyhow. I think its great the drivers window works all year round so I can get cash out of drive thru ATMs for gas and repairs. I have been playing with JEEPS so long I can't think of any other SUV for my off road adventures. It has also been mentioned on this post, not everyone has a FSJ, to us, as a group of incurrable addicted JEEP JUNKIES this is unique and desirable status at any cost! ;)

[Panoscopic]

Hey, looks like I have really started a good debate!

I just wanted to clarify a bit here. My relationship with Panoscopic has been a passionate one - both love and hate, but somehow the love seems to overcome the hate! After all, I can't bring my mind to sell here. In light of all the positive support, I drove her to work today. Given some of the responses, I think that many of you may share the same emotions.

What I was trying to get at was the Wagoneer in the time it was being sold during the eighties. For people who own them now, you can pick up a decent runner for $1,000, and even with the price of gas, it can be practical to run. Especially now given the uncertain economic times, not being tied to a payment is a big plus!

What is different is when a Grand was sold new. It was at the top of the price scale for any car. Very few people could afford those kind of bucks. It is like $50K in today's dollars. Now, for those who paid that kind of money, I doubt that articulation was a defining factor in their purchase, because most of these probably never made it very far off-road, and the most four wheeling they ever did was in Aspen. Since most of the driving was on-road, the live axle was a liability and not an asset.

The price point of the '80 was a radical departure from when the car was introduced in the 1960's. The value proposition at that time was classic Jeep - an affordable, rugged versatile vehicle for every man. In the '80's, it became pure yuppiemobile.

What happened in the '80s was pure American marketing magic in my mind. Rather than discontinue it, take an old design, "upgrade" it with fake wood, leather trim (the seating is not full leather) some power accessories, double the price, and target it to a totally new audience and bingo - a profit powerhouse. But still not enough to save AMC. Technically, AMC did nothing to upgrade the powerplant and instead continued to use '70's era emissions technology, at a time when Ford had radically improved their V8s (5.0 Mustang) and GM was doing its job too. The output of the AMC 360 on Panoscopic is a measly 126HP, the lowest power per cubic inch in modern history!

[Bob Barry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panoscopic:
What happened in the '80s was pure American marketing magic in my mind. Rather than discontinue it, take an old design, "upgrade" it with fake wood, leather trim (the seating is not full leather) some power accessories, double the price, and target it to a totally new audience and bingo - a profit powerhouse. But still not enough to save AMC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it was more by accident than by design.

AMC introduced the "Limited" in 1978, and soon a good number of Wags, if not a majority, were equipped with this full luxury package. This trend accelerated into the 1980's; just think about how many '82 and '83 Wags you find with the Limited trim, compared to the base stripper trim.

When the XJ Cherokee AND Wagoneer were introduced in 1984, it seems for all the world that Jeep intended both those models to replace the full-size Cherokee and Wagoneer. They kept the FSJ wagon as the Grand Wagoneer, and apparently to their surprise, people kept buying them (in fact, sales INCREASED after the XJ was introduced). Considering that the development costs for the GW were amortized long ago, Jeep was happy to keep selling a truck that was just about pure profit. It seems the only reason they stopped selling it is that it would not meet the new passive-restraint safety regulations without massive reengineering, and the ZJ replacement of the XJ Cherokee was moved upmarket and introduced in 1993 as the "Grand Cherokee" and "Grand Wagoneer", as a replacement for the full-size GW.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Technically, AMC did nothing to upgrade the powerplant and instead continued to use '70's era emissions technology, at a time when Ford had radically improved their V8s (5.0 Mustang) and GM was doing its job too. The output of the AMC 360 on Panoscopic is a measly 126HP, the lowest power per cubic inch in modern history!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, the late-70's Ford 250ci I-6's hold the record for the lowest modern hp/ci ratings, with some motors putting out only 70hp. So the AMC holds the record for the lowest-rated hp/ci modern _V-8_ engine.

The fact that the 129hp motor was identical to the motor rated at 144hp and 175hp also throws fuel on the fire of this debate. Either way, it can stand some improvement.

[andy d]

the wags were dinosaurs. 70s smog technolgy pasted onna a 60s engine. but heck, im a dinosaur too :D or so say my younguns. nothing gives me a charge like pulling some hapless soul out of the sand. usually its a ford explorer,whose making payments on the thing. ithink the original design engineers of the wag would be amazed to discover that the wag has become a "cult"vehicle and a suburban icon. ilike my wag and am not looking forward to the day when rust and entrophy win out. just let me finish my house and i will head south or west onna hunt for a rust free 6

[reddog]

LOL Andy - my kids say the same about me! Little rascules!!!

So if I understand the point about being out of the cost of Limiteds or Grands being extreme for the market at the time, it appears to me whether via dumb luck or not that AMC was much ahead of thier time with the first (and for quite a while ONLY) "luxury SUV" and all the Caddys and Excursions ETC ETC are just expensive imitations with limited off road ability?? Am I understanding this correctly or am I missing something??

[reddog]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Crazy_Jeepman:
I was wondering about this subject the other day as I was trying to get my 89 GW out of the woods. I lost a rear axle, due to a wheel bearing letting go. This subject has me about P-O'ED as possible 2000 miles on it. I was wondering why I keep messing around with this old JUNK! WHY WHY WHY! I have no clue none, none at all. I do know I will fix it again, and await the next problem to show itself I know it will. I drive it with pride because on a warm day all the windows go down and with a little manual help come back up, when it is cold only the drivers window works with help. This is a good thing, because it is to cold to have the windows down anyhow. I think its great the drivers window works all year round so I can get cash out of drive thru ATMs for gas and repairs. I have been playing with JEEPS so long I can't think of any other SUV for my off road adventures. It has also been mentioned on this post, not everyone has a FSJ, to us, as a group of incurrable addicted JEEP JUNKIES this is unique and desirable status at any cost! ;)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO!! Now I know where you must have gotten your handle - in addition to your driving habits!

Kerry

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: reddog ]

[woodybeone]

GW's are a perfect fit for us "Big and Tall" folks. smile.gif

[andy d]

gotta admit, wunna the dumbest looking rigs ive ever seen is a cadillac escalade with 18" lo pro tires

[El Gordo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by reddog:
So if I understand the point about being out of the cost of Limiteds or Grands being extreme for the market at the time, it appears to me whether via dumb luck or not that AMC was much ahead of thier time with the first (and for quite a while ONLY) "luxury SUV" and all the Caddys and Excursions ETC ETC are just expensive imitations with limited off road ability?? Am I understanding this correctly or am I missing something??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You've got that exactly right. I for one bought my GW not for off-roadability, but for the luxury features (though the 4WD does help in the winter here). It had the most for the money. Naturally, I wanted FULL leather interior as opposed to leather with "Cumberland Cord inserts", but I made a compromise because it had the power sunroof. If you can find me another vehicle with leather, power windows, power locks, power mirrors, power seats, power sunroof, cruise control, leather-wrapped steering wheel, alluminum wheels, air conditioning, and fog lights for $600.00, let me know.

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: El Gordo ]

[Scott]

I love this jeep :D . I had a 77 Cherokee NT and it was cool, but I sold it and after a few more owners it died, I think :( . I like the modern feel of the interior with the look of the classic FSJ exterior. If everyone wanted the same thing...it would be a boring world ;) .

[jeepguzzi]

Here is more grist for the mill :rolleyes:
I can remember reading magazine tests of the last few years of G-Wags, and they all said the same thing,"this is the one to get if you want the most luxurious 4x4, but still need it to perform off road" Yes, it was a little pricey,,,,but the word was "get a G-Wag, and be the envy of the country club set" :D :D

I still haven't seen your G/W around here,,,,so I will have to assume that I own the nicest looking fsj in Chicagoland :D ;)

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: jeepguzzi ]

[nfroio]

I've been following this whole thing, and decided I would toss my 2 pennies into the hat, mainly regarding the engines in our rigs, sure, they were underpowered, and knowing the engines that were readily available at the time, why they did not toss a more potent package into the Grand Wags, I dunno, but whats so GRAND about Grand Wags, is that ALOT of them are getting into the 25 year old range, and hence are beginning to become exempt to the smog restrictions, meaning that we can soon basically do whatever we please with them.

Even the one that we must still abide by smog with, are sooooooooo easy to work on, and have sooooooo many aftermarkets parts, that are relatively cheap, we can make them crank some serious HP's, if I can ever get ahold of some of that so called "extra cash", I am looking at 4BBL Carb/Intake, Headers, and anything else that I can produce massive more HP's, and willing to bet that I can still do it for much less than you could on a new rig that you are already in hock up your eyeballs on.

I priced out an equally equipped 4X4 1/2Ton Z71 Suburban on Chevrolets website, and it cost - - -- Brace Yourself: $41,685.00...
:eek: :eek:

BeeeJeeezUs.. I could by at least 10, if not more, Grand Wags for that price, which, for the most part, can do everything that the 'burb can do, if not more, and to me, that is GRAND. (or, should I says, $Grands$ saved)

Noah

[Bosox Al]

Why i love my wag. First of all its a BIG AMERICAN JEEP, Built in A M E R I C A !!!! i think there isnt enough american made rides on the road today. I grew up on my step fathers used car lot. He had a passion for big cadillacs, the leather interior and power options remind me of all the old cadilacs we used to drive around in when i was a kid. Now all the giant oversized suv's that are out here today are nice but... i would like you to show me one Durango, Suburban,Navigator, Escalade site with over 1000+ members who can tell you how to fix them. :D I have yet to meet a owner of one of these vehicle's that can do their own repairs.When somthing goes wrong with them most of the people just bend on over and take them to the dealer. Forget that. i also like that there's plenty of other wags still out there if i ever wreck mine i can replace it.I looke on autotrader.com every once and a while and there's at least 40 to 50 in the US for sale, and that's only one site! I also love the woodgrain! When someone show's me a new trendy SUV that they have bought, i say "it's nice but, Where's the woodgrain??" Long Live FSJS!! and hopefully (with the help of this site)Long Live my WAG!....AL

[newbie]

Your estimation that a $24,000 wag in 1991 is equivalent to $50,000 in 2001 dollars, is DEAD WRONG! Looking at the consumer price index (I'm a finance major, so I do this all the time) from 1991-2001 the CPI has only risen 30.686 percent (avg. inflation rate is 3.06% per year for the last 10 years) Thus the said $24,000 Wagoneer in 1991 would have a present value of $31,364.64 (in 2001 dollars), or in other words, a dollar in 1991 buys you the same as $1.31 today. Just thought i'd clear up the matter.

[El Gordo]

However... In 1991, base MSRP for a Grand Wagoneer was $28k or $29k. Not $24k. I happen to remember that my '87 with options came out to over $30,000.00 on it's original MSRP.

[solar@clnk.com]

"Furthermore" !!!!

One of the best things about owning a Jeep Grand Wagoneer is THIS FORUM! Few, if any, special interest vehicle owners have a friendly and helpful place to visit, swap information and parts, and just BS like we have here. :D

[Panoscopic]

Newbie:

You are partly right - you can find deflator calculations at: http://minneapolisfed.org/economy/calc/cpihome.html

For 1987. the factor is 1.57.
So, my 1987 Grand Wagoneer should be about $38,000 in today's dollars. That's BMW, Lexus territory.

So I stand corrected. Anyway, still too much for my blood!

[Michael]

Well here is my story. My dad owned mine for the past 10 years. Put about 5,000 miles on it during that time. I always admired it and told myself. If he lets it go I will buy it from him. Well on day, 12 months ago, he called me. Michael if you want this peice of junk come and get it you can have it. I said what wrong with it maybe we can just fix it. He said the tansmission is falling out, the suspension is popping and the darn thing just doesn't stop or idle anymore. Well he knows nothing about cars. Thought to myself this would be a great project. So I went to get it. It had zero brakes and the tranny had a major slip and you had to gas it at stop lights to keep it running. I took it home and found that in 10 years the oil has not been changed anywhere, no tune up etc. All it needed was a little tlc. Well in about 2 hours I fell in love with it. This ran better than my new truck, and could do anything. I like the red paint, the size, the ride, the wood panels and so on. And my 2 year old thinks the "Beep" is the best thing in the world. My wife likes it okay and has been very supportive throught its transformation. Although I have coughed up $$$$ the last year I do not seeing myself ever let it go. I love the Wag and will not willingly let it go. :D

[El Gordo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panoscopic:
Newbie:

You are partly right - you can find deflator calculations at: http://minneapolisfed.org/economy/calc/cpihome.html

For 1987. the factor is 1.57.
So, my 1987 Grand Wagoneer should be about $38,000 in today's dollars. That's BMW, Lexus territory.

So I stand corrected. Anyway, still too much for my blood!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sweet! That puts my '87 at $47,100.00 in today's money. I own an old ML-430!

[Hump]

Maybe the name plate manufacture just screwed up and left off the "e" for BIG Wagoneer. :D

Grande Wagoneer!!! :D

[JonM]

Well this is MY story: We have an 86 GW and it has been "for sale" three times - in the last 9 years because of 'the problems'. But every time that phone starts to ring and people want to look and buy, my family and I chicken out. WHY? Because you can love a Wagoneer.
Just look at all those FSJs with names...anyone ever named a Honda or a Rover. I don't think so. And finally my son (9) really thinks its alive and "it would just be plain mean to sell her or treat her bad". Hey - maybe that the Jeep thing.
****, I should be working.

[Yaz]

(about grand) i think the "grand" name is because in 84 those POS jeeps came out and the big wagoneer was more GRAND than those toys....

anyway...
i think that all the SJs are grand in that they lasted with a design from 1962 to 1991(or 2) cars today change in 4 years. i only wish that amc would have dropped its dumb car line and stuck with jeep, i dont like that an american name "JEEP" is now german...(it should only be ameican) and maybe amc could have kept the jeeps in the military, they were making money, why stop right?(wouldnt all you military guys love going to work in your GWs to go drive in a armored GW :D)

i only dread the day that i get my cherokee back from the body shop and be forced to put it on ebay by the higher ups...(i hope no one buys it) if i can only last through feb...

[Bryce]

OK, here is my .02 on this topic. I have a 2001Cherokee 4X4 that is awesome! The LAST Cherokee ever, and I bought it because of that. I get a little tired of hearing some friends bash the small jeeps. The inline 6 is the most relaible engine jeep has ever had going for it. It is torqy, fun, highway and off road able. It is it's own legend, from 84 to 01, I am glad to have the last one.
I also have a 77 Cherokee. What a non-classic classic if you know what I mean. I work on it on weekends and have fun. It will never be perfect and that makes it cost lest, thus my wife lets me keep it.
This leads me to my ex 85 Grand Wagoneer. Problem was it was my daily driver. It was so nice, I felt obligated to keep it perfect, thus exspensive. It also broke down alot and it was well taken care of. I really liked my GW, I like the look and the style, but I hated the electrical and vaccum stuff and all the plastic. Thus the reason I got the 77
Chero. Simple and sweet, solid, like an earlier day.

[Green Giant]

The guy I bought my truck from made me promise to sell it back to him if I ever wanted to sell it....YEAH RIGHT, he won't live that long! :D

[porkchop]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAZ/82:

i dont like that an american name "JEEP" is now german...(it should only be ameican)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is Ironic that jeeps were first made during WWII to fight the germans.

My wag is not "Grand", it is me. It doesn't matter to me if I get good gas milage or how smooth the ride is. I bought my wag to modify it and run it in the woods. I have a four door SUV that cost a fraction of what they cost now. I didn't buy it because it was reliable or was good on gas. I got it because it was me.

[shadowjeep]

its a jeep.
its big.
its bad.
its cool.
it will never go out of style.
i like it.
i love it
its a FSJ.
its just grand.
its a jeep.
nuff said. :D

[billyj7175]

As bad as I hate to quote the cliche "It's just a JEEP thing", I'm going to. I was raised in a family that always had a Jeep product of some sort...as my 67 yr old father drives a 94 Grand today. I now own a pristine 83 J-10 with (no joke here) 43K original miles (and no I won't sell it) that I inherited when my great uncle passed away. (just as a side note, my great uncle bought a new Jeep pickup in 67, and traded it in on the 83) I will admit to the frustration of dealing with all of the Jeep-quirks, but the camaradarie that this website offers, has definetely renewed my interest, as I'm still trying to talk my wife into selling her mini-van, giving her the suburban, so I can go out and buy either a FS Cherokee or Wagoneer.
Why buy a FSJ? I currently live in Southern California, where even the older vehicles are practically rust free...but the greatest thing, is that it's the "Jeep-quirks" that prompt people to sell them...and sell them cheaply they sometimes do.
Good luck with the hunt.....we hope to see you back soon....8^)

[tinman]

When our rigs are the ones pulling all the others out of the mud, then you'll know whats so grand...not to mention the fact that you can fix them up just about anyway you want unlike most of your other " Miss Priss " rigs. :D

[Panoscopic]

One of my points was that the GW got just a bit too "Grand". If I had it my way, I would prefer the Wagoneer had stayed more like it was in the '60s - affordable. Quite frankly, if I could find a 64-71 as nice as mine, I'd trade it if they were willing. I don't mingle in the "country club set" and I can do without the extra trim, leather, power stuff, etc. That is one reason I like my TJ - it seems more like what a Jeep was meant to be - rugged, functional, inexpensive without stuff you really don't need on the trail.

But then again, I still love the wag for what it is. Perhaps by chance, but something that only could be created in America. The fact that stuff breaks all the time almost makes it seem "human".

Anyway, just an opinion and its good to hear from you all, and I have yet to be flamed. This is really a great group! Yes, and another reason to be a proud wag owner.

[Tad]

I was reading this 5 month old post(s) on the Wagoneer and was truly impressed, not only with the quality of responses but also with the quality of the writing. This is a very personal and literate forum. As for my wag, hey, this is my upgrade, had the '51 Willys truck for almost 20 years, felt it was time to get something newer under me.

[Panoscopic]

Wow, thats an old one brought back!

Since then, I've come to love my Wag even more...maybe she is Grand after all!

In comparison, I've had some really bad experiences on the Jeeps Unlimited Wrangler board. If provide any negative criticism of the TJ, it usually starts a flame-fest. Dare one speculate on the pricing or availability of the cherished Rubicon!!!

[JEEPGUZZZI]

Not to nit-pick, porkchop, but the jeeps were made before the U.S. entered WWII. Although they were commissioned in response to a government contract for prototypes. They just got their well deserved reputations during the conflict, not only in Europe, but also in the Orient, and North Africa!! ;)

[gwinn]

Don't know about yours, but my Wagoneer is grand! It is and always has been reliable. It has a strong looking body style. Power windows, doors and seats. Leather interior. The woodgrain was classy in the 70's, 80's, 90's and still is. The 360 engine has the power neccessary for virtually all of the off-road situations I've ever encountered. It doesn't get any grander than this! :D

[ March 30, 2002: Message edited by: gwinn ]</p>

[thos]

I just finished reading this thread. What a great list of testimonials. I'm a new member but bought my 1st GW in '93 after my wrangler was broken into and the interior trashed. I had it with rag tops after that. Drove the CJ into work that morning and passed a Jeep dealer with a pristine white '89 GW on the lot. Pulled in and made an even swap for the Wrangler. I had that truck for 4 years. Drove it to my wedding. Slept in it many times on surf trips to the Outer Banks. Had it during the blizzard of '96 when we got 36 inches of snow in 12 hours. Had to drive my girlfriend (now wife) home in drifts up to the headlights. Just me and the National Gaurd out. I sold it for financial reasons. I hated the guy who bought it. No lie, I cried when he drove it away. I swore someday I'd get another. Bugged my wife like a child until she relented (a testament to her). Bought another today. They are like tattoos. You get addicted despite knowing they really might no be the best thing for you. It's a lot like surfing. You do it for reasons wholly unrelated to the activity itself. You do it for the lifestyle, because it's good for your soul.

PS - I only have 1 tattoo. No plans for anymore.

[shredby4]

I own a rusted out piece of Great Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley MoogleyGreat Googley Moogley Cherokee. But I love it. Somebody brought up horsepower earlier...Here's my opinion on that:
It's torque that counts in the real world. Try pulling stumps with a 240 hp Supercharged Frontier and you'll see what I mean. I know plenty of us on here jerk stumps....uh...that didn't sound right. :eek:
I have something to say to Stuka...Sadly Dodge has added IFS to the RAM now. Well at least Jeep has solid axles still. By the way, a brand spanking new $80,000 Landrover has solid axles.
Some new SUV's have independent rear suspension now. Imagine what towing will do to those components.
So what if they weren't the most reliable vehicles...Ford made the ignition system, the carbs were Motorcraft and those are the worst components on them. Remember, at the time these vehicles were being made the government had started making the companies put emissions equipment on. They hadn't even figured out how to build that stuff yet. A little updating and our Jeeps run so much better. Add a high flow cat and you'll see. Maybe add full injection or a better carb. I don't think it's that bad on gas. If I swap in a D-18 transfer case I will pop a Sarturn or original Warn overdrive on there. My Mother's 93 Cutlass doesn't have overdrive by the way.
Maintance...hmmm...Well, anybody with a Haynes or Chiltons book, a 101 piece Craftsman tool set,a floor jack and a multi meter can fix an FSJ.

[Don S]

Shredby4.......SuperCharged Nissies Only have 210 hp @ 4800 rpm and, 246 lb-ft of Torque @ 2800 rpm. And they are 'bout 4,250 lbs, with(some) 4.62 rear end. I think I can snach those Nissies with My '76 401 Waggie :eek: :eek: ....... tongue.gif ...ds..

[Gargel-orum]

Well shoot...cause its like a big buick sw w/ ground clearance- what could be better.

cut off over those medians then 4wheel it through the drainage ditch and cut right through that empty lot for milk and cigs at the 24hr walmart-scr*w pavement baby diven' while riddin like a hoopty!

..hehe..

Not to mention the looks i get when all the civic driving locals catch site of the 5'1'' tattooed girl getting out of the jeep wag that just cloths-lined them all the way down the hyway

whoo--hoo!

[Sparky]

Gas milage what is that??? I require HP and torque...A full sized truck is a must for me...I haven't had anything that has had over 15mpg in my life...I bought my wag to keep my bike out of the weather and to get to more places to ride...Since then I have fallen in love with the smooth ride and stout fell of my Jeep...She is now OOC but a little work and off we go...I have had problems with every vehicle I've owned off the lot to 20 years old...I am no mech. but at least I can figure out this one with out thousands of $$$$ of diagnostic equip. unlike my Ford F-250...So if you don't like it don't do it...make yourself happy...and HAPPY EASTER!!!!!! :cool:

[looch]

Buying a truck for gas mileage purposes is like buying a cat to guard your house! If you need economy, buy economy--but if you need a truck, buy a truck. Did I say truck, I meant FSJ!!!!

[shredby4]

Don,
I gave Nissan too much credit. My bad. I thought I had read that they were going to have 240...So they are even more pathetic than I thought. I love watching Toyota, Mazda, and other rice burners try to keep up with me on the trail... :D

Looch,
Interesting comparison. Is a GW really a truck though? I think it's more fair to compare to an Expodition or Tahoe... Even with overdrive their milage ain't better than a GW. They aren't half as trail worthy. Plus payments and insurance.

I have one other little point... If you can find a GW in good condition (externally) you can swap in anything you want for a drivetrain. There are at least 3 bolt on overdrives available, or you can get an adapter and throw a 700R4 in. Add fuel injection.Maybe even just swap in the whole drivetrain from a Chevy that has fuel injection and overdrive. With all that you could still come in at $5,000 for a nice looking one and it would be far more trail worthy than a newer vehicle.

The only real bad point to FSJ's that I've found is the lack of aftermarket parts support. I can't believe that there are not more body parts available. There are so many people still driving and wheeling these things. I think the companies that make all the CJ and Wrangler replacement stuff are missing out on a huge profit. Maybe they'll wake up one day.

[Don S]

shredby4
You were right about the 240 hp but that is a different engine than the SC engine. BTW I have a Nissie and, Sure enough my FSJ is better pullin' stumps,and on the trail,... BUT the the little(longer than my FSJ) rice-burnner gets to Colorado quicker 'cause it don't have to stop for gas..
tongue.gif tongue.gif :D ...Click the bottom LINK in my SIS...I got the best of both worlds........ ;) ...ds..

[shredby4]

Nice pics! Maybe one of these days my girl and I will head out that way. That is beautiful! I couldn't make that trip in The Borg...I think she is buying a used Troy Lee Mazda 4X4...Yeeehaw! I converted a Yankee into a redneck!

[Don S]

shredby4....
wwwwOW!! You have it figured...Yes..I like FSJs because It helps keep my neck RED!! All these New Nissies were just getting me too uppetty like chasin' all the hound-dogs out from under the porch and straigtin' up the outhouse... You see I thought it was 'cause my FSJ had the BEST easy powersteering, most comfy seats, Smokers vent window(and I don't even smoke), big Torque, low entree level price, Utilitarian Styling :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: ....Well it just goes to show ya......... :D :D ...ds..

..PS come go with me......