Yet another 4Lo-N4Hi question...

[Skye]

Ok, the tranny shop (idjits) were unable to connect the linkage in my 229 up. So, it drives fine but no 4wd for now. What I want to know is:

What gear is the 229 in now? Is it in N which makes the 4wd not work?

Can you run it in 4Lo by floping the linkage around, keep it in 2wd, and it fun fine? Then switch it to 4wd whenever I need it?

Would a person with a totaly functional vehicle keep his tcase in N when driving around in 2wd?

Sometimes I miss my Scout. All this convenience is inconveniencing.

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83 Wagoneer.... um... thats all:)

[ClarkGriswald]

Its impossible to run in neutral.. your trans case, being after the transmission. does this.. either provides 2wheel drive.. which means the 2wheeldrive-4wheeldrive lever is in 2wheel mode.. or 4wheel fulltime (on drypavement if you wish) when the 2-4 lever is in 4.. and your dashlight says 4wheel engaged. at this time (when in 4hi) you can get rolling slowly and put the transmission in neutral and pull the transcase lever up, thru the neutral position into the 4low position. (this is partimme 4wheel.. locked. and not for use on pavement).. the 229 trans case is either in 2wheeldrive. or once in 4hi.. can be put into 4hi\neutral\4low.

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[JERRY88GW]

Could you be running in 2-wheel drive with you transfer case in neutral?

What I mean is: From driving your rig in 4-wheel drive put your transfer case in neutral. Than put the rig back into 2-wheel drive without going back to 4low or 4hi.

[ClarkGriswald]

cant do that with a 229..

there are two shift levers goin into the x-case..
they are one within another.. the inner shaft.. is the 2wheel-4wheel selector.. when its in 2wheel .. thats all there is.. the only time that neutral or 4low is available(the outer lever) is when you are fully engaged into 4wheel Hi.. (inner lever switched into 4wheel) once this inner lever is all the way engaged into 4wheel.. it unlocks the outer lever that can then be shifted into neutral and ultimatly into 4low.. (this all must be done at 2 mph and with transmission in neutral.. ) . my NP229 was rusted shut.. (inner and outer shift levers\shafts rusted togethor) had to soak with penetrant and pry apart.. till this day my stock vaccum actuator that shifts from 2 to 4 wheel.. cant do the job of shiftin that inner lever. cause they are still really stiff to move....Im switching to an NP208 as soon as possible.. then its all done from the flag on a stick shifter

[JERRY88GW]

Every time I've shifted from 4low to 4hi, I've been in 4-wheel drive at a dead stop. I think I tried to do it a 2mph once but the gears in the np229 just grinded. What's going on?

[scotty]

rolling slightly sometimes helps get everything lined up so that the gears can move. it is not always neccessary.(SP?) my friend shifts his 229 without rolling all the time in his xj cherokee. even with some part time cases,if the lever wont move smoothly,slight motion fore or aft will help it engage. my dana 300 usually wants me to be rolling bacwards slightly,especially when engaging the front wheels. if ive been in 4lo on a higher traction surface for any length of time,it wants me to roll backeards several feet,pop the trans in N and gently pull the levers.

i personally think the 2 levers and vaccum actuator are quite assenine.as skye put it-"very inconviencing".i like that... if the 229s t levers would let you select low range in 2wd-id be all for it.but alas,this is not the case. the problematic actuator has to move into 4wd before youre allowed to move the second lever. i think the engineer that designed this setup should be beaten senseless with a plastic flag shifter and a length of vaccum hose.



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[Skye]

Man, this is confusing. We need a forum just for 229 stuff. I have to get to a shop who knows what they are doing to get my tcase linkage hoode op again. Ok here is (I think) my last question:

Right now my flag is flopping around, unatached. I can drive so that means that the case is not in N, right?

If it is not in N, that means it is either in 4hi or 4lo right? If so, I can hit my vacume swith and still use my 4wd just has to stay in high or low, whatever it is in now. Is that right?

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83 Wagoneer.... um... thats all:)

[ClarkGriswald]

". i think the engineer that designed this setup should be beaten senseless with a plastic flag shifter and a length of vaccum hose."
Ha ha ha ha Well said......

try this.. get on some gravel or a grassy yard.. step on your brakes and hold em.. then stomp on the gas.. if your right rear tire only spins. than you are ni 2wheeldrive.. if it just bogs down and doenst spin your probly in 4HI.. mine doenst have the balls to turn both axles over..


------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[JERRY88GW]

One time I wasn't sure if my rig was in 4-wheel drive or 2.

To figure it out I:
Jack up the back in, and put it on jack stands.
Cranked her up, put it in drive and gave some gas.
The front end did not pull.

[Skye]

Balls you say? Mine barely has enough to pull it's girth away from a stoplight.

Jackstands. That sounds a little scary but makes sense.

So, one last point. In order to drive the vehicle, in 2 or 4wd, the tcase has to be in hi or lo, but not N. Meaning even though I am running 2wd, the tcase is still in SOME gear; H or L. Right?

Thanks!

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83 Wagoneer.... um... thats all:)

[Baker]

If you're in 2wd, it's in hi. YOU CAN'T GET LO OR N IN 2WD!

------------------
Baker
'84 Grand Wagoneer "B.U.F.F" (Big Ugly Fat... um...Fellow)
360,727,229, 44 & 20 (3.31s), 30x9.5
If you don't know what all those numbers mean, you shouldn't be here.

[Skye]

Ok, so I am definatly in H or N. I can drive it so I suppose that leavs H.

So the tcase is in H, if I flick the 2wd--4wd switch, it should go into 4hi. Right?

What gear do I do that in? Do I do like 2 mph while I flick it or do I sit still?

------------------
83 Wagoneer.... um... thats all:)

[ClarkGriswald]

You can flip that switch at anytime with a NP229. and might have to move a bit for it to shift to 4hi.... mines unhooked i shift it with a big ole pair of vicegrips

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[scotty]

try simply putting a rollable floorjack under the rear diff,rather than putting it on jackstands. the jack will roll-the stands will probably fall over and scare the hell out of you,creating a potentially bad situation as they fall.

keep in mind that the 229s 4wd high range is full time. this means that the viscuous coupling must be in good shape for the front to pull you in 4hi.if its toast,then imay acting like an open diff,and simply spinning the power out the driveshaft with the least resistance.

last and least,skye you are making this 2wd/n/4wd thing alot more complicated that it is. the vaccum switch and flag are not seperate functons. if your case were in neutral,then it would be in neutral,and you would not move.if you move the vaccum switch back and forth with the transfer cse in N,the actuator will not be able to move the lever on the t case. the lever that controls 2wd/4wd must move into the 4wd position before the 2nd lever that controls the HIGH N LOW can be moved.consequently, the 2wd 4wd lever cannot be moved from the 4wd position until the HIGH N LOW lever is shifted all the way back into the HIGH position.

quite simply: the 229 has 4 positions: 2wd high/full time 4wd high/neutral/4wd low range. its just that you have a switch and a lever to achieve these 4 positions,rather than 1 simple lever.

the linkage is not really all that complex. the big goofy actuator must puch/pull the smaller lever(i think the 2wd/4wd is the smaller one) and the other lever is moved by the plastic flag via a couple of rods and a bar that pivots. i.e..when you pull up on the lever,it pivots the bar.which pushes the lever. if some or all of your linkage is missing,this may sound confusing. if its all still there,you should be able to figure it out.

thats the only problem with this internet thing- if you lived across town(or even in the next town over) id be happy to come over and give you a hand with it...



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[ClarkGriswald]

Yes the 2wheel-4wheel lever is the Inner rod. I is within the Outer one which is the range lever.

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[JERRY88GW]

OK,

Now one more stupid question.

Why is there a nuteral in the transfer case? The only thing I can think of is if you got stuck on a hill and wanted to back down?

I'm sure you guys have a more intelagent answer. http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/smile.gif

[ClarkGriswald]

Same reason there is a neutral on your tranny...


Whatever that is..

But seriously, neutral on the t-case is usually where you are sittin there cringing from the grinding sound you just heard.. and getting up the courage to shift the x-case the rest of the way into 4low and not gonna give in to the sound of grinding gears.. must.... make it..... into.........4....low....

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[scotty]

there is a neutral for flat towing. it is not advisable to flat tow very far,but you can flat tow short distances with an auto tranny in park,or a manual tranny in gear,and the transfer case in neutral.

you do not want to tow with an auto tranny in N and the t case in gear. things will not be properly lubed,and damage may occur. generally speaking,short distances will not hurt the t case being in N.longer distances,however,depend on the internal design of the t case,and wether the oil splashes around sufficiently by the turning front/rear outputs and the stationary input.

from what ive read its safe to flat tow a dana 20 with the front hubs locked,not safe to flat tow a dana 300(unless you disconect the driveshafts),and im not sure about any of the new process cases or the quadra trac.



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[Skye]

Ok, I think I have it now.

I must be in H because I can drive it. The 4WH should work if I hit the switch.

Have to try to floorjack idea.

Anyone know of a decent shop in South Carolina?

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83 Wagoneer.... um... thats all:)

[scotty]

you can check the operation of the 2wd/4wd actuator by having someone move the switch while you watch underneath.the big,goofy actuator should move the lever back and forth when the switch is moved.

once you get the lever into what you think is 4wd,try the jack under the rear diff idea. another thing you can do is jack up one front wheel and one rear wheel completely off the ground.assuming both your differentials are open,both off the ground tires should spin in 4wd.



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[JERRY88GW]

Another stupid question. What's flat towing?

Man, i feel stupid asking these questions, but it's better than never nowing.

[joe]

Just means towing your rig w/o it being on a trailer, towing dolly etc.
-joe

[MonsterMash]

Boy, all this linkage know how is cool. I knew what positions I can put my tranfer case in but I never knew the mechanics of the parts. Thanks for the info. Now that the transfer case has been explained can anyone tell me what exactly the vacuum "servo" on the front differential does. On my '84 the underdash 4wheel switch has 2 or 3 small,brittle,plastic lines going to regular looking vacuum lines and some metal tubes and more vacuum lines that end in a squared off looking housing above the front diff. Actually, I'm not really sure what transfer case I have as my manual lists a 229 and a 208 for my year GW. I have the under dash switch that has a stop which must be pulled (two-handed switch) and you must be stopped to engage the 4wheel but my flag lever and my gear options are just like you guys described here. What do you think?

------------------
'84GW360--"Spinner"
And on the eighth day God created Jeep so man would not be bored.

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now that the transfer case has been explained can anyone tell me what exactly the vacuum "servo" on the front differential does. On my '84 the underdash 4wheel switch has 2 or 3 small,brittle,plastic lines going to regular looking vacuum lines and some metal tubes and more vacuum lines that end in a squared off looking housing above the front diff. Actually, I'm not really sure what transfer case I have as my manual lists a 229 and a 208 for my year GW. I have the under dash switch that has a stop which must be pulled (two-handed switch) and you must be stopped to engage the 4wheel but my flag lever and my gear options are just like you guys described here. What do you think?

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got the NP229. The vac servo connects the front axle and transfer case together when you switch it into 4WD. The vacuum operated axle was only used in 83 and 84. FSJ's with the 229 after 84 had a conventional front axle.
-joe

[MonsterMash]

So again, according to my manual (Manual esta mi amigo) I have a Dana 44(F) front diff. Now when I engage 4 wheel the vac. servo "locks" something in the diff. that "locks" the front drive shaft that allows the transfer case to be shifted from High to Neutral to Low. If the front shaft is not locked then the transfer case cannot be shifted out of High. Is this correct? What exactly gets locked by the vac servo? Is this "Selec-trac" or "Command-trac" or what?

------------------
'84GW360--"Spinner"
And on the eighth day God created Jeep so man would not be bored.

[Skye]

Yeah, were the lucky ones.

------------------
83 Wagoneer.... um... thats all:)

[ClarkGriswald]

Is your x-case the NP219? (correct me if I have the wrong one here) I have an 88 Grand Wag and it has the NP229, Solid hubs and no vac axle. your year disengages the front axle for some reason. Im sure the people who really know will fill it in here. Ive seen it written here many times.. My own opinon is that you should either be able to unhook the whole front end (ie driveshaft,diff,axles, via manual hubs) and be in 2wheel mode. or have em solid like mine is now.but that shutting off half the system setup is kinda funky.. I belive there is a way around this.. where you can just lock it up somehow. or do something with the vacuum to just keep it solid.. again folks im just trying to offer info based on other post's ive read... if you have the real skinny . please lay it on. Anyway's.. I belive what you have is Selectrac.. .. a rather long winded repetitive answer but hey.. what can ya do? hehhe.. hope I help to propogate this thread into super thread-dom.

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[MonsterMash]

Yeah, we're very fortunate. And if FSJs were around alot longer there would be less problems in the world. Important moments in FSJ history:

Eve: "Yo Adam, try this..."
Adam: " Uh, hon, can you hand be a hammer, I've got a noise in my rear end I need to fix..."

Hitler: "Why should we invade Poland, they don't have the parts I need..."

Genghis Khan: " ****, out of gas and we haven't even left Mongolia..."

Columbus: "But, your majesty, I need more money for the parts boats..."

John Wilkes Booth: " If it keeps stalling on me I'll never make the show..."

Geo. Bush,Sr: " Read my lips, no new vacuum lines..."

Neil Armstrong: " One small step for man, one giant leak under my Jeep..."



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'84GW360--"Spinner"
And on the eighth day God created Jeep so man would not be bored.

[ClarkGriswald]

Those are some great biblical jeep quotes there MM... heheh.. how about these.. just goin off the top of my head here..... hmmm....

Thou shalt not crap on my hood (if you are a bird!)
and of course...
Thou shalt not soil my tire (this one pertains mostly to dogs of the male variety)

This one might not so much apply to jeeps but to bikes.. but I'll try it anyway...

Roost not lest ye be roosted!

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[scotty]

aaaaaaiiiiiiighh! you guys and your common names. there would be much less confusion if yall would refer to the new process cases by their numbers.

the "center axle disconnect" was a stange way to let the front driveshaft not spin in 2wd.it basically slid a 2 piece axlesshaft apart,so that one axleshaft wanst connected to the wheel and to the differential. im not %100 sure of the logic here-everything still turned but the actual carrier and pinion gear-both axles,and all the spider and side gears still spun like mad. it was maybe an attempt to produce a more relaible system than "Auto locking hubs" which tended to be problematic. not to confuse auto hubs with full time hubs,which are a simple gear that cannot be locked or unlocked-it is full time splined to the axleshaft and the rotor.

as for this servo thingy on the front diff cover-are you guys sure its not something with another function that just happens to live on the diff cover? the CADs on wranglers,s10s,and dodge trucks(which also have 44s) the mechanism is at the end of the axle tube,not on the diff cover. i honestly cannot understand how this thingy on the diff cover makes the axle halves disconnect!? ill need to find one of these mechanisms and take it apart to figure out exactly what it does...

the 219 never had a CAD fornt axle. it was always used with a conventional axle,with full time hubs.

it also is possible to rig the CAD so that it is full time engaged,and install conventional manual locking hubs.everything from the knuckles out is the same for a full time front end,or a CAD frontend.

as joe mentioned,this CAD system was only used in 83 and 84. grand wags after 1984 had a conventional axle. it proved to be problematic,as well. the actuator could fail, wouldnt move the axles together and leave you with no front wheels pulling.

hope this helps clear some things up...


------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[This message has been edited by scotty (edited August 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by scotty (edited August 07, 2000).]