Dana 20 interchangeability question

[River Beast]

A friend of mine has a Dana 20 bolted to a TH400. He has another Wag in need of a Dana 20 and wants to know if a Dana 20 from behind a T-85 3 speed (Porkchop... you listening?)will bolt up to the TH400. Are there adapter issues or anything to make this work???

Thanks
http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life/gator1.gif

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TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's (soon to be 4.88's)
7" SOA conversion
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's on 15x10's
(soon 38.5x14.50's on 12's)
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life)
My E-mail: spazz4life@yahoo.com
"Where there's a hill...there's a way!"

[This message has been edited by River Beast (edited August 24, 2000).]

[scotty]

there are small and large bore dana 20s. the t90 and t84 used a small hole.other than that, the cases are the same and use the same mounting pattern. if the th400 allready has the factory adapter and tailshaft,the 20 from the t85 shold fit. you might measure the diameter of the hole on the front of the case on both cases just to be on the safe side,before handing over any cash.

also FYI,the dana/spicer 18 also uses the same cases as the 20. you can swap a large bore 18 onto a tranny to directly replace a large bore 20. you can even swap all the 18 parts into the 20 case. the 18 comes from the factory with a twin stick shifter,which can be used idependently(to get front wheel low range) simply by removing an interlock pill. you can also use alot of cool power take off accessories with the 18,as well as saturn over/underdrives. there are even adapters now to let you use both-in the past you could have an over drive OR a 40,000 PTO winch,but not both. now you dont have to choose. last and not least,the 18 has an offset rear diff,making it a great choice for a swap into a previous BW 1350 truck that still retains the offset rear diff.

i may even give up my dana 300 to use a t18 and dana 18 xfer if i come across a good enough deal on them... i coule go thru deeper ruts with an offset rear diff,and it would be realllllly cool to find a power take off winch!



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scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[Brenton]

Yeah, that sums it up. The only other issues you might run into will be the mounting hardware for the crossmember. I swapped a DANA 20 from a '71 Wago to a '68 Gladiator, and I had to change the mounting brackets for the frame crossmember - no big deal. However, what was a big deal were the output shaft linkages. My old Gladiator has straight up SPICER U-Joints. The Wagoneer had (I think) the double cardan. The output shafts are entirely different on the two cases, so I wouldn't be able to use the one off the Waggy without switching the drive shaft across as well (which I couldn't do because of wheelbase issues), or to glean the guts from one, and swap them to the other. In my case, I just kept the nasty old 20 from my Gladiator, and used the mounting hardware from the one on the Waggy. Something to keep an eye out for, at any rate.

Brenton

[KENALL]

no it wont..sorry gentlemen, but u r incorrect... http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/frown.gif

since the xcases are mated with the input gear, which is attached (in some way) to the back of the trany, (be it manual or auto), the 2 must mesh together. and in this case, doubley so.

the t85 trany was only used in jeeps behind the 327V8. the 67 t85 that i have in the closet is marked 8/66. the input gear to the d20 it was bolted to, is still bolted to the end of the main shaft. it has an ID#, like all of them do: 18 8 19.

the 18 8 19 gear has 6 internal splines 1 3/8dia with 26 external teeth. BUT, the angle at which the external teeth are cut is 20degrees.

the ID# on OE th400/d20 combos gear, the gear left on the th400 when the d20 is removed SHOOD be 18 8 43. which matches the gear from my OE 66 th400/d20 combo also sitting in me closet. BUT..the angle of the teeth on THIS gear is 17.5 degrees.

if this is the case, then the teeth of the gear INSIDE of the xcase that mates with the gear on the back of the trany MUST match. also, the 18 8 43 has 15 internal splines and has a 2 3/8s dia hole.

correct me if im wrong, but u cant mate a 20degreee tooth gear with a 17.5degree tooth gear... http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/frown.gif

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1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor' http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html

[scotty]

can you not simply swap the matching gear onto the outputshaft of the th400?



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[River Beast]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scotty:
can you not simply swap the matching gear onto the outputshaft of the th400?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My thoughts exactly..took the words from my keyboard...Kenall should know.....ok where is he???


------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's (soon to be 4.88's)
7" SOA conversion
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's on 15x10's
(soon 38.5x14.50's on 12's)
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life)
My E-mail: spazz4life@yahoo.com
"Where there's a hill...there's a way!"

[River Beast]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scotty:
can you not simply swap the matching gear onto the outputshaft of the th400?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My thoughts exactly..took the words from my keyboard...Kenall should know.....ok where is he???

I don't have any experience at all with the Dana 20... QT's are my game, but I'm trying to help out a couple of people here locally that need the forum's expertese....


------------------
TJ
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's (soon to be 4.88's)
7" SOA conversion
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
33x12.50's on 15x10's
(soon 38.5x14.50's on 12's)
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life)
My E-mail: spazz4life@yahoo.com
"Where there's a hill...there's a way!"

[KENALL]

scotty, u dint reed what i typed:

"...then the teeth of the gear INSIDE of the xcase that mates with the gear on the back of the trany MUST match."

to simply swap input gears in this situation wood not work. the gear on the inside (the intermediate gear) of the t85/d20 are cut to match 17.5degree teeth and the teeth on the inside gear of the th400/d20 are cut to mate with 20degree cut teeth...

ur thots?



------------------
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor' http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html

[scotty]

kennal,are you saying that the splines on the output shafts of the th400 and t85 are different? the d20s that i have looked at,when you remove the t case,you are left with the gear bolted to the output shaft. you must unbolt this gear to remove the adapter plate that goes between the tranny and xfer case. i have never looked at a th400,but every manual tranny ive looked at that takes a dana 20 looks the same,and i assumed the th400 looked pretty much the same.

can you not remove the d20 from the t85,remove its corresponding gear,then bolt this gear to the output saft on the th400,the bolt the 20 onto the the th400 adapter? voila,you have matching 20 degree teeth on the gear on the tranny and the gear in the xfer case. or are you telling us that the spines on these 2 different outputshafts are different,prohibiting us from swapping these gears.

kenall,you are super knowledgeable,but i have a heck of a time following your posts sometimes...

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[This message has been edited by scotty (edited August 27, 2000).]

[KENALL]

grrrrr http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/frown.gif
_____________________________________________
the (18-8-19) gear, from the t85's d20, has 6 internal splines with 26 external teeth. BUT, the angle at which the EXTERNAL teeth are cut is 20degrees.

the OE th400/d20 combos gear, (18-8-43) has 15 internal splines and 26 external teeth. the angle of the external teeth on THIS gear is 17.5 degrees.
_____________________________________________

these 2 gears are not interchangable...the style of attachment of the gears is different on manuals and autos.

------------------
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor' http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html

[River Beast]

Thanx alot for all your input...I now know (99%) that this swap cannot happen due to the gear/spline issue.

Thanks for such informative post, Kenall and Scotty....

And yeah I agree Scotty... I need to review the Kenall dictionary to freshen up on the "Kenall Addition of English 101" (hehe) http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/biggrin.gif

Sometimes I wonder how people can know sooo much about a subject in such a wide variety of items (Walking All-Data CD http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/wink.gif)like Kenall....Awesome that you know so much I respect and appreciate all you can input to this forum
Thanks

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT
Dana 44's (soon to be locked w/ 4.88's and 38x14.50's)
7" SOA conversion
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/~spazz4life)
My E-mail: spazz4life@yahoo.com
"Where there's a hill...there's a way!"

[scotty]

ok,ok-i am understanding now. i had never heard of different pitches on the way the teeth mesh,and i was confused about the internal spline part of the gears.my apologies...

kennal, what trannies besides the t85 use that pitch and internal spline count? ive seen different splines on the output shafts,but never seen anyone have troule swapping one case for the other. is this t85 an oddball,or do others use it that well need to watch out for when checking out potential swaps?

the advance adapters catalog and various articles ive read on the 18 and 20 dont mention different teeth meshing. just goes to show theres no substitute for practical experience...

so what eles can u tell us about the 18 and 20 xfer cases?



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[KENALL]

---------------------------------------------
"kennal, what trannies besides the t85 use that pitch and internal spline count? ive seen different splines on the output shafts,but never seen anyone have troule swapping one case for the other. is this t85 an oddball,or do others use it that well need to watch out for when checking out potential swaps?"
---------------------------------------------

the t85 was used by pontiac in the early 60s. but only jeep used it in a 4x4 role and only behind the 327V8.

the pitch at which the teeth are cut depends on the calculated HP/torque amounts developed by the eng/trany, and the 'market' at which the vehicle is aimed. the shallower the pitch angle at which the teeth are cut provides for stronger gears but makes for more noise. so those xcases used behind V8 engines more than likely have the 17.5 degree teeth compare to those applications behind I4s or I6s. or the total weight of the vehicle.

this is similar to different applications of the 2wd passenger car th400. many different length output shafts and different bolt patterns on the bell housing. Even tho many of the internal components interchange, there is always 1 little part that is different.

but still, this is not absolute. u MUST have the ID# from the input gear to make a final conclusion. NEVER buy an xcase without its input gear.

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the advance adapters catalog and various articles ive read on the 18 and 20 dont mention different teeth meshing. just goes to show theres no substitute for practical experience...
---------------------------------------------

this is correct, but AA has most of there experience with the CJ types and NOT the FSJ types.

the common premence here is that u have removed the OE T(whatever) trany from ur CJ and are installing a swoopie doopie gear grinding 4spd, while at the same time keeping ur D18 or 20. AA will know what the input gear to the xcase is (from experience)and will sell u a trany ouput shaft that u can bolt it onto, except in specific circumstances that they will inform u about.

When persons are dealing with CJs exclusively, they assume ur not taking parts from a FSJ and installing it into a CJ. in THAT specific case, u need to call and specify. if they say it is all right and moments later after u back out of the driviway the xcase grenades...u have some1 to sue http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/wink.gif


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so what eles can u tell us about the 18 and 20 xfer cases?"
---------------------------------------------

see nu post.

------------------
1966 Super Wagoneer
'The Predecessor' http://home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/index.html

[This message has been edited by KENALL (edited August 27, 2000).]