TH400.... are the bolt patterns different....

[River Beast]

I have a line on a TH400/Dana20 but is from a pre 74 wag. It had the adapter plate between the motor and trans. My question is will the pre-'74 TH400 bolt up to my 78 block without the adapter and flywheel spacer.... or will I have to remove the adapter and use it on my motor along with the flywheel spacer?

thanks... this could be happening in as little as 2 weeks!!!!



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[PAJEEPER]

Yes you will have to use the adapter and spacer. It has a different bolt pattern than later 1 piece TH400's. What I would do is take out the output shaft for the D20 and install it and the D20 on you existing TH400. Would probably take more work but sounds better than having that adapter plate in there.

------------------
Greg

'81 J10
258,727,208
custom bumpers 4" pipe f,square tube r.
Yellow powdercoated wheels.

'77 J20
360 4BBL,400,Q-trac.
Heavy duty steel flatbed.
Currently under construction with new frame.

[Kenall]

ummm...y u doing this???

i take it u dont already have a th400 bolted to the back of ur 360...right? if u do...see question #1

u lookn to swap from the QT to the d20? then all u need is the:

output shaft from the d20 th400.
the xcase adaptor from same, including the 15spline sleeve.
and the d20.

u dont need to bolt the pre 74 th40 to ur 360...just swap out the required d20 parts from it to ur th400...

do u like spam eggs sausage and spam?

do u like Vikings?

do u have a parrot that is just 'resting'?

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/)
'The Predecessor'

[jeepbob]

to translate to english, take the output shaft and T/C adapter from the early t400 and put in later t400, although with my bog truck I never had a problem running the early trans with the engine adapter. When I put the T400/D20 in my 65 with the 360, I changed it over because I did not have an adapter plate to fit because I did not have the foresight to save the one I had. The bog truck had a 350 Buick.
If you decide to change the shaft over, this would be a good time to upgrade to kevlar clutches and bands as they hold up much better than the stock units.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[This message has been edited by jeepbob (edited February 02, 2001).]

[River Beast]

I understand that all I need is the output shaft from the "other" TH400, adapter, an Dana 20....I was just looking at the possibility of staying on the road and "rebuilding" the TH400/D20 combo so I wouldn't have to tear into my existing one

Sounds dumb, but cheaper....for me.

I may venture other avenues now that I know the bolt patterens are different.


Does anybody know where you can just buy a TH400 tailshaft and the mating gear for it inside a Dana 20?

Thanks for the input guys...

My purposed for the proposed swap is the fact that I ahve 39's and don't want to keep changin out chains in the QT once a year (over-exaggerating a little)

Kenall... what's your thoughts on the QT being able to withstand the torque of 39's and 4.89's with a P/T kit installed? This is another approach...

Thanks again...



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[Kenall]

for the weight u have and the size of ur tires..u need gear drive!!

if u r confident about the condition of the early th400/d20 to meet ur requirements than install the early combo.

but since u r gonna use the th400 in a very demanding enviorment, then haveing the later th400 'gone thru' and instal the early th400 output shaft wood save money in the long run...

the output shaft used in the early th400/d20 combos is the same as the 2wd passenger car 'short shaft' used in 2wd th400s.

but a sleeve is used to mate the 2wd output shaft to the special internal 15spline input shaft of the d20.

at the very least u need, the sleeve, the adaptor and the input gear from the early combo. all of these parts will be on the back of the early th400 when u remove the d20.




------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/)
'The Predecessor'

[River Beast]

Ken,

You always come thru for me...thanks for the wealth of info and I thought you would agree on the gear drive being the better choice for my application.

Now... since last time I posted I have found a Dana 20 (from a TH400), but no output shaft or adapter.

To all...

Does anybody have a source for these at a "good" price.... I think a while back somebody had told me about $150 fo the output shaft, but can't find an adapter (mount) that goes between the TH400 and the Dana 20.

HELP me find these parts... PLEASE!!!!

Thanks



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[scotty]

RB,dont forget that if youre still wanting to use an 18 that you need to be able to swap the input gear.

kenall,r u saying that the th400/d20 input gear has 15 internal splines? if this is the case,then youll be stuck using a d20,since no 18 came with a 15 spline input gear.only 10 and 6.what youll prolly need to do is use an aftermarket kit that utilizes a 6 splne output shaft,then you can use either a 20 or an 18.

but if a factory th400 d20 input gear has 15 internal splines,id prolly think twice about using factory stuff.remember,the d20 cas a centered rear output. if your gonna use an xfer with a centered output,it would prolly be fairly easy to find a gm th400 and np 205. the 205 is a big beefy gear drive case thats rated at 900 ft/lbs of input torque. it would be the same deal-just swap the gm output shaft and adapter into your amc housing. id be very,very surprised if you could break a 205-even with 39s.

the 18 is still a good plan,i think,and is comparable in strength to the d20.

just some more food for thot...


------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[River Beast]

Thanks Scotty... it seems that 18's are rare and I maight being waiting a while to find one... however..... you make a good point on the 205. Hmmm.....I should be able to get some time next week to go "hunting" in the boneyard. MAybe I'll take a peek..thanks

In a gear driven case, what usually "goes BAD"... ie... like the chain of the QT... I've had the NP203's in the past (still chain driven) so I have no "insight" on the gear drives.

Ken,

your thoughts on the potential 205???

***
I know it seems like a bowl of "mixed nuts" but have to leave my options open.... til I find what will work and what's available.

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[porkchop]

Todd, remember I was telling you about the place that has all the Jeep parts? Well if I remember he had a 205 as well as a few more GM cases and tranny's. You need to call him to make sure though. The number is 783-8975.

------------------
'67/'79 Wagoneer mix
“Old Timer”
Check it out! (http://members.fortunecity.com/porkchopsfsj)

Mods, Mods, and more Mods! The end is no where in site, but I am sure I am closer to the fork in the road.

[scotty]

nothing typically goes bad on a gear drive case-thats the beauty of them http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

it is possible for gears to break or chip teeth,or bearings to go out.in extreme cases,a case could crack or break. for the most part,all of these things can be attributed to low(or none) fluid,and/or a combo of too much power,too big a tire,and "foot to the floor" driving techniques that result in bouncing and rapidly spinning wheels suddenly finding traction.

other than that,i havent seen much gear drive breakge on the trail. i have seen aluminum cases throw chains,crack,and blow big chunks out of the sides.a friend of mine broke the tailshaft right off of a 231. a friend of mine did break a dana 20,but thats pretty much due to the fact that he doesnt really believe in preventative maintenance,and his xfer turned out to be full of no lube other than water.oops.in his case it just locked up-he came to a screeching halt with the back wheels not spinning in 2wd. another frined broke a dana 20(sort of) when a U bolt on the front axle that wan not tight,and let the front axle twist,collapsing the too short front driveshaft,and pushing the xfer off the adapter,stripping the holes. i think all damage was done to the case as they pulled it back to camp.even still,the put a ratchet strap n there to hold him on,and drove it all the way home. definately couldnt have done that with a broken QT... i have had euff troubles personally with aluminum chain drive cases that it finally became a worthwhile option to swap front axles to use a gear drive. now i dont worry about it breaking http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

it definately,goes to show importance of clean fluid,proper planning/mesuring and being thorough(check tightness of all bolts) in doing mods.

anyway,hope this helps.let me know if i can be of further assistance...


------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[Kenall]

yes the 205 wood be an even better choice than that of the d20...but, the 205 (of corse) only came on GM 4x4s with GM tranys..hence the trany u find bolted in front of the 205 of ur dreams wont bolt to ur 360, unless u by the AA adaptor to do so, more $$$.

this bring us back to just using the trany output shaft, the trany to xcase adaptor and the chosen xcase from WHATEVER combo u stick with, be it GM or Jeep.

the d18 is DEFINATELY OUT. it does not have even the slightest chance of withstanding the weight of 39s and a 5k-lb jeep.

SCOTTY!!, its not the INTERNAL spline count of the input gear to the xcase, its the number of EXTERNAL teeth (on the input gear) and the degree to which they are cut from center line that is paramount.

if the xcase u have requries an input gear to have 29 teeth cut at 22.5degrees from center line, than it does not matter HOW the gear is attached to the output shaft of the tranny.

RB can go to AA and buy a kit that will bolt a d20/18 to ANY th400, but he will have to determine what EXTERNAL tooth count his d20 requires and match it to an 6 internal spline input gear for the kit to work...more $$$

so RB..r u now saying the th400/d20 u had a line on is just a d20 by itself with no adaptor or input gear or trany output shaft??

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/)
'The Predecessor'

[jeepbob]

RB the 205 case is a much stronger case, the main problem is finding one to bolt to a turbo 400 as most of the auto tranny Chevies were T350's. Another thought would be to find a Dodge divored unit. Then there would be no adaptor, just 3 driveshafts.
The AA kits run between $570 to $610 depending on the T400 you use. I looked into these before I bought the the pickup bog truck. The $500 spent on the truck gave me lots of parts to sell including a 65000mile 350 Buick that sold for $350, so you might want to consider buying a complete truck.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[scotty]

kenall,if you unbolt the input gear, what splines are the tailshaft on the factory th400/d20 combo?

u r correct in saying that the input gear(tooth count and pitch) must match the xfer case.the d20 and 18 take different input gears. but the input gear must be swappable if he wants to use an 18.thats what i was refering to.an 18 input gear bolts to eitherr a 6 or 10 spline output shaft. so the d20 gear u r replacing must also be bolted to a 6 or 10 spline shaft,or u r up a creek,so to speak...

i disagree with the notion that the 18 will not hold up to 39s,especially if you swap the guts into the beefier 20 case and add a brace to keep them from cracking in one certain spot that is supposedly a week area. i have seen guys at gravelrama use an 18 behind a 1000 hp smallblock and turning big huge paddle tires. i think the 18 will hold up as good as a 20,and the output if offset to match the rear diff. if u want to wait untillnext year,ill be able totell you how well it will hold up,im gonna use one with 38x15.50 groundhawgs.

there is no debate that the 205 is stronger than a d20,300,or 18.it is abuot twice the size,and prolly weighs twice as much.the guy at AA told my frined that the 205 is rated at 900 ftlbs of input torque,the 300 at 600,and the atlas II somewere in between,but couldnt say exactly how much.

jeep bob,i wish i lived in your area,aroud here you see 203s attached to th350s.i see a fair amount of th400/205 combos for sale,anywhere from $400 to $800.you hardly ever see th350/205s around here,i wish i could find one,id really like to replace the 203 in my camaro with a 205.

let me throw out one more little tidbit: once you have secured a th400/205,somewhere down the road if you have an extra $800 or so burning a hole in your pocket,you can purchase off road designs doubler kit to add a 203 range box betwee the 205 and th400. if youve got enuff rear driveshaft room,this would prolly even help your front prollem,as it will make the front somewhere between 7 and 9 inches longer...

here is some info on the doubler: http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler.htm

check out here for the strength brace for the 18: www.tricountygear.com (http://www.tricountygear.com)



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[River Beast]

OK... to answer Kenall's question...

I have a choice of a disassembled D20 and needing the output shaft. the orignal TH400 output shaft stripped away, but the gear insdie the D20 was undamaged.

The other setup is the combo older TH400/D20 with adapter plate to mount to the 360.

Now I have to go and look at the TH400/205 combo... I heard the guy is high priced, but never did any business with him before so we shall see. He also has D300's laying around as well from what I have "heard".

When I get a chance to go down there, I will let you know what I find.

To sum this up... it's safe to say that the 205 would be the best choice for my application... correct? Now if the 205 is out of reach the D20 will work... just have to find the output shaft I guess OR get the combo set and swap everything over.

Thanks a million for all the help you have provided.. a wealth of knowledge... you guys are great. http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gif


------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[JEEPRZ]

This may not even be an *option* in your mind, but have you considered the SJ 727 with a D300? Around here, those trannys are not too tough to find, they are plenty strong enough, and has lower gearing. The CJ d300 will bolt right up to one, and is also lower geared than the D20,18, o NP205. This would allow you to rebuild the trans, and have it ready to swap in minimizing teardown time. IF you decide on this, you will need a new flexplate, and youll need to remove the crank pilot spacer in the back of your flywheel. GOOD LUCK!


------------------
Dave
83 GW
360/727/229
tow rig for 85 CJ
3"lift, 31s, 3.31s, edlebrock intake (TBI in the works), cam, custom DIY exh, rebuilt trans shift kit and factory aux cooler,modified 229 (no viscous coupling, *improved* vacuum system), lotsa squeaks, leaks, and rattles

[Kenall]

scotty..ur killing me http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gif

32spline th400 tailshaft.

but it goes without saying that any input gear designed for a d20 shood not be used for an d18.

3/4T subburbans used th400/205s, a buddy with an 80 burb had this.

if u find parts in the yards, unless u can ID them from site, i wood not buy anything u intend to bolt together unless it was bolted together in the yard when u bought it.

its very foolish to buy the xcase from this place and the trany from another unless u can ID ea of the parts.

yes scotty, the d18 can be beefed up...but that is more $$$, and swapping the gears from it to a d20 is still more $$$. RB stated a budget and im am steering my response to that end.

since RB has the th400 already in his jeep we must run with the notion of obtaining parts used by the factory using that trany.
the d300 was not attached to that trany and the d300 is very expensive compared to d20s or even 205s.

the 727 is a tought trany but was not used in an SJ platform jeep WITH the d300 so it wood only consume more $$$ to make it fit in his jeep.

the best idea is to obtain complete and unseperated th400s/(whatever xcase) combos from the yards and install them into RB's jeep.

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/)
'The Predecessor'

[scotty]

kenall,kenall,kenall... http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

so u remove the input gear from the tailshaft of the th400... it has 29 external teeth and 32 internal splines? in this case,a d20 is the only case you can use with the factory combo. the d18 input gear(6 or 10 internal splines) will not swap onto the factory th400/d20 tailshaft.

am i understanding this correctly,or is there a spudshaft that has 32 internal splines at one end,and a 6 spline end for the gear to bolt to?

this is for my own personal knowledge,i have never seen in person a th400/d20 input gear,and wonder what it looks like.

on the 18 conversion,20 cases are a dime a dozen,and the 18s are not so hard to find,either. i could buy him one for $75 tomorrow and whatever it costs to ship it to him... the parts are a direct swap,no extra $$$ is necessary to swap the 18 guts into the beefier 20 housing.i just got finished doing it to create a t18 compatible spicer 18.

on the d300 swap,he allready has a passenger side diff,so that swap s not so tough,either. to swap in a 727 you need simply remove the th400 pilot bushing,install a 727 flexplate,and install the trhottle pressure linkage to the carb. the d300 bolts right to the 727,and he certainly has plenty of lift for front driveshaft clearance http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif which is the only prollem with a 727/d300 combo. i tried to go this route,but the front driveshaft hits the tranny pan on a stock height wag http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/eek.gif so i put my 904 back in. i would not pay more than $300 for a d300. they are available fairly consistantly in the local papers and swap meets for that or less. i also know of one,in a bucket,that i could get for $50,reassemble,and send him.

when you factor in the cost of a tranny rebuild(to swap output shafts),the d300/727 option is not so far fetched. if you can find a strong 727 and a d300 at resaonable prices,it may be less than buying th400/205 AND rebuilding amcth400 with gm shaft.

prollem with the d300 is again,centered output,and stength not much more than the d20.

am not saying u r worng,just there are lots of ways to skin the transfer case cat.

i am in agreement,that by far the best option,strengthwise,is the 205.it is very good advice to only buy a combo that is bolted together.things get lost,broken,or just plain dont fit if theyre sepreate.just cause that 205 is sitting next to a th350 defiately does not mean it came from there...

ur thots?




------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[River Beast]

Well gents... the 205 combo is a no-go..for now....still gonna hunt for one elsewhere..... http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/frown.gif the guy won't part with it... has had it for years just sitting on a pallet and won't sell it.... HE's DUMB!!!!!

Thanks Bryant for the help....saved me a trip http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gif

I still like the idea of the 205 combo... ALOT... jaut gonna take some doin' to find now...

You guys are great!! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif I can't tell you how much I learn from you all...

If something doesn't happen soon.... I may not be going to TDS at Salton City March 3 and 4....bummer...

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"If you can't stop...SMILE as you go under!"

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[bigblack'74]

Guys that idea of the 727 and D300 is a sweet idea. i just rememberd one of my best friends has got an '86 cj with a built 360, 727, and D300. hes got 36 in. ground hawgs and he beats the hell out of this jeep and he has NO problems at all. that swap is bolt in...how can you go wrong with bolt in?? i love it i love it!

[Kenall]

scotty u asked me how many splines were on the th400 tail shaft, and there are 32.

but in the OE jeep th400/d20 arrangement, the input gear to the d20 slides over a special sleeve that itself slides over the 32 spline th400 output shaft.

the input gear to the d20 will have 29 external teeth and 15 internal splines. the sleeve will have 15 external splines and 32 internal splines.

RB has the th400 now...whatever he wood spend to purchase ANY other trany/xcase he cood use to rebuild and beef up what he has.

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/)
'The Predecessor'

[jeepbob]

The 300 sounds good, but you can't flat tow your rig with it unless it is modified to keep it lubed. You even have to flat bed it or pull a drive shaft to tow very far with a wrecker. Also D20's are a lot cheaper than 205's or 300's. Not to sure about the durability of D18's seen one ripped in 2 by a stock v6 CJ. (total abuse) Maybe in the d20 case but then ya gotta buy 2 cases.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[scotty]

ok kenall,i gotcha http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

so if RB decides to use a factory th400/d20 he is stuck with that combo.he cannot swap a d18 onto the factory th400 inplace of the 20 due to the fact that the factory combo uses a special input gear with 15 internal splines.no d18 application uses an input gear with 15 internal splines,and it will do you o good to bolt on the xfer if you cant swap the matching input gear.

given this new info,the 205 looks even better.you will be stuck with that,too,but youll prolly never break it.so being "stuck"
with it,rather than a 20,is prolly a better option.

RB if you cnage your mind on using the 18/20,i think youll be better off using an aftermarket kit rather than the factory stuff.

the offer will stand- if you want me to pick up and send you a 1 1/4 intermedait shaft 18,or get the bucket of d300 parts,id be happy to do so...

tho not the best option,dont forget you could use a 203-th400/203s are prolly a dime a dozen anywhere,and the part time kits for them are dit cheap,and with a part time kit,at least the chain is not working-power goes straigh thru,unlike the QT whose chain will always be working... thot id mention it,dont really know how favorable or horrible your experiences with them were.



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[River Beast]

Man... between Scotty and Kenall my brain is oozing with great info!!!! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/eek.gif thanks!!!

Scotty,

I had a converted 203 in a 79 Blazer... I didn't like it.... I had problems with it and being "stuck" with a 205 is a great option I won't mind living with... however I will have to keep my options open (with your offer) due to the fact I can't find a 205 worth the $$$ yet...(needing the TH400 combo, as you know).

Irbob said you can't "flat tow" a dana 300 w/o removing a shaft... I take it they (D300) don't have a neutral position...correct?



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[porkchop]

I have to agree that if you are going with the D20 option then you need to get the aftermarket setup. The one that you are looking at that has the striped rear shaft, the housing for the adapter is cracked. The other one that is still in the wag has a different bolt pattern not to mention the the starter is on the opposite side. You will need the engine/tranny adapter to make it work.

I am on leave to be with my wife more, but I have had the chance to look at a few junk yards. Yesterday I saw a M715 with the original running engine and all other parts are original. The guy wants $3500 for it. I am talking to the wife http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gifHe also has all of the metal I need to make my bumpers.

I am going to go to some more today and tomorrow. I am looking for knuckles from a early model chevy and I am looking for you a good 205. I will keep you informed.

------------------
'67/'79 Wagoneer mix
“Old Timer”
Check it out! (http://members.fortunecity.com/porkchopsfsj)

Mods, Mods, and more Mods! The end is no where in site, but I am sure I am closer to the fork in the road.

[scotty]

the d300 does have a neutral,and you can flat tow with the xfer in neutral for short distances. the reason you cannot go long distances is that the rear output shaft and bearings are above the oil line,and the lack of lubrication can cause very bad things,the least of which is very premature bearing failure. if youre flat towing a 300 with the driveshaft connected a long distance,its a good idea to stop and run the engine with the tranny in gear for awhile at least every 50 miles to splash some oil up there. check out the link above for tri county gear. they can have a slick little internal mod that lets you flat tow the d300 safely. its been awhile since ive read the article,but basically they add paddles to one of the oil slingers,or something,so that when you flat tow with the xfer in N and the front hubs locked the turning front shaft slings oil aroud sufficiently lubing the bearings and gears.i can dig up the article if youd like some more specifics...



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[Kenall]

yes scott
but even if he had the 'normal' d20 setup with a 6internal splines input gear, he wood still be unable to convert to a d18 ezly because the d20 has a 4" opening and the d18 has 3".

on at least the OE jeep FSJ d20 th400 adaptors there is a pilot that protrudes from the rear face of the adaptor that is used much the same way as the drum pilot on a brake drum is used, to center the xcase to keep it aligned in relation to the input gear.

having this protrusion wood prevent the install of the d18 cuz of the 18s smaller opening...

i wood suspect that AAs kit that can install both the d20/18 has no such protrusion to prevent the installer he/her choice of xcases...

the d300 cant be flat towed as there is no gears within the xcase that will spin with the rotation of the driveshafts...

in the d20/18, the front driveshaft must be rotaing in order to spin the lower front slider gear which will fling oil up towards the rear output shaft bearing.

unlike the d20/18, when u shift the gears, ur shifter is actually moving an entire gear. in the d300 the shifter is only slider and small collar to engage the teeth on the gear just forward or aft of it.

think of the syncros in a manual trany and how they engage ea gear when they are moved back and forth and ur kno what this looks like.



------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/)
'The Predecessor'

[Kenall]

the mod that scotty talks about is to heliarc small paddles to the shift collar with in the d300. these collars look much the same as the E drive shift collar within jeeps QT xcase. ie..a groove along its outside diameter and internal splines to match that of the shaft is mates too.

because the d300 output shafts are not connected DIRECTLY with any gear, these gears cannot fling oil around the inside of the case while u flat tow. the ouput shafts are directly connected to only those shift collars, and therfore, only those litle shift collars whood spin as the jeep is flat towed.

there is no teeth on these collars in which to fling oil like on a gear so u have to 'make' some...by heliarcing some on...

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/)
'The Predecessor'

[jeepbob]

I think you would have a really hard time finding a T400/203 combo most of those were T350/203's. The General was never real big on putting T400's in 4x4's until the late 70's and even then only in HD3/4 and 1 tons (yes there were exceptions) and good T400/205 combos are as scarce as chicken lips and very expensive unless you are very lucky. Problaby easier to find a divorced Dodge 205. Now we really opened a can o' worms!

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[Kenall]

if RB can only find a 205, than AA has a kit to bolt it to ANY th400 he decides on using...if he cant, AA has a kit to bolt a th400 to any d20 he might find. and he dont hve to mesh with the strange OE jeep adaptors...

------------------
Ken
1966 Super Wagoneer (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~kenns9/)
'The Predecessor'

[scotty]

kenall,kenall,kenall http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif

yes,most d18s have the small locating hole.that is another reason why you get a d18 with the 1.25inch intermediate shaft and swap the innards into the 20 case.not only is the case alittle stronger,but voila! you have just created a large hole 18 that will directly replace any d20.as long as the tranny has either a 6 or 10 spline output shaft,so the matching d18 input gear can be swapped in plce of the d20 nput gear.

if RB decides to use a divorced dodge case,he will need to get a passenger car 2wd th400 to swap the tailshaft and housing. then hell need to make a crossmember,and a little tiny driveshaft. definately a good way to go,since he could make the case lower and the extr lenght certainly would help his front d shaft prollem. however,hes prolly not really any more likely to find one o them,either. around here ford versions pop up now and then,but they use a driver side diff. people hardly ever part out dodges in these parts(hmmm-does that insinuate that they never break or quit running?dont they even rust out like ch*vys?) i have never seen a divorced dodge case in the local trading post,you might say theyre about as scarce as chicken lips as well. i agree,tho,that would be a great way to do it...



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[jeepbob]

Naw, Dodge owners are as goofy and fanatical as us FSJers! Well, maybe not quite as fanatical....

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[River Beast]

OK guys... I found a 205 case with the adapter plate... not sure on the output shaft of the T400 yet. guy said $400 for it all... waddya think....or should I keep lookin' I can prolly srounge around and find a T400 output shaft... but is there anything "special" on the 205 to be concerned with like the Dana 20/18...



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[RudyC]

HeHeHe http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif.
Yup we Dodge guys are wackos.
If you can't Dodge it Ram it!
80s Ramchargers used the 205 on the 727s.
The 70s used the np203.

Have you tried Boyce Equpment? They have military trucks, tranfercases, Dana 60s.

The D20s are in my personal opinion pretty tuff and you can convert them with lower gearing. You would probably snap an axle or U joint before it comes close. The np205 only has 2 to 1 ratio.

Will the d20 bolt up to a AMC TF727?

[scotty]

ohhhhh here we go again. the dana 20 will bolt to a 727 IF a person wants to find a scout 727/d20 and swap the tailshaft and adapter into the amc tranny. much like the th400/d20,with this factory combo you are "stuck" with the d20. you cannot swap a d18 onto the scout 727 cause the scout 727/d20.like the th400/d20 uses an input gear with a goofy oddbal interl spline. in this case is 23 internal splines.

otherwise,no,the d20 will not swap onto the amc 727.it uses the circular NP pattern,while the d20 uses a "texas" shaped pattern.

RB,$400 is a fair price for a 205 with adapter and shifter. however,its not a jump on it great deal,and you will need the tailshaft. about the time you had over $400 of hard earned,nonrefundable cash,you will find a deal on th400/205 combo for $300.

if you are comfortable that this 205 wont go anywhere,id scout around alittle more. im not near as familiar with the gm stuff,but i do know that the 205 has to come from a th400,not a 350,if you want to try and bolt it up with factory parts. im reasonably sure that the post 80 205s,gm and ford, use the circular NP pattern.its just the output splnes thatmake swapping a prollem.gm can use 32,or something else,(maybe 27?),and ford uses 31.

if youre gonna attemot to mix n amtch parts,id verify that youre getting a th400 205,and make sure you check the input splines before buying a th400 tailshaft,even tho if the tailsfhat comes form a 205 combo,it should work...


at which point you will become very angry http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/mad.gif but this is how the jeep gods operate,sometimes...

one thing to your advantage is that the th400 does not have to work-it can be bad,as long as its all there-all you need is the tailshaft,and whatever hard parts may be wearing out on yours. afterward,you can throw the whle mess in the trash.

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

T18/dana-spicer 18 with drum E brake and PTO,and offset dana 44 swap very soon
BIG tow truck PTO winch and full roll cage install shortly thereafter
searching for jeep 4.0 six engine

now we can do some 'wheelin!

[jeepbob]

Hey RB, if you decied to go with a 205, BEWARE, I just did some research as there was a nagging little flag that went up so I did some digging in da ol reference pile(Wifey hates that too) and found an article in 4WOR (Sept 98) that says there is 2 diff 205's. !is the 32 spline automatic tranny and the other is a course spline manual tranny unit, which would require an AA spud shaft adapter.
Just thought I would throw another log on the fire, How about a divorced Ford D24, low range kinda sux though (1.86 to 1), but they are dirt cheap and easy to find.

------------------
65 wag. 360/edelbrock rb4/t400/20 t-case/4:10 d27/d44 tracloc/onboard air/onboard 110v power(no inverter)/1999 Lincoln t.c.leather buckets/taurus ctr console/winch/33x12.50/tunes/water proof door pads
soon to have new motor/d44frt/d60r(4:10)welded diff/custom bumpers
see ya in da mud

[River Beast]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeepbob:
Hey RB, if you decied to go with a 205, BEWARE, I just did some research as there was a nagging little flag that went up so I did some digging in da ol reference pile(Wifey hates that too) and found an article in 4WOR (Sept 98) that says there is 2 diff 205's. !is the 32 spline automatic tranny and the other is a course spline manual tranny unit, which would require an AA spud shaft adapter.
Just thought I would throw another log on the fire, How about a divorced Ford D24, low range kinda sux though (1.86 to 1), but they are dirt cheap and easy to find.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks!!! I found out when I started researching. I believe there are 3... 10 spline, 27 spline and 32 spline. 32 spline is the one I am looking for... uses stock adapter... the others require a kit, but will work. It also came in 2 bolt patterns... circular and figure 8. The 27 spline, fig 8 patteren was attached to a TH350 from 71-79 (factory), The 10 spline Fig 8 pattern was originally attched to the SM465 (3-Speed stick) from 71-84 and the one I NEED (from what I can tell) should be the 32 spline fig 8 pattern used from 79-85 with at TH400. Now it could be the later 205 which is 32 spline with the circular pattern, but not sure (I doubt it)... this one has a shorter depth and was alos mounted to the SM465.

see...I have done some looking/research http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif... AA had a good breakdown.

I may go look at the 205 Saturday.. but really wanted to wait til I found more.... I have a tendancy to be impulsive....

I gotta tell you all that having Bryant (Porkchop) close by to "talk Jeep" is GREAT... He is always thinking of ways to help you out.... he even scouts the yards for me without me askin' him to.....he mormally knows what I am hunting for... http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gif

A BIG SHOUT to Bryant... THANKS!!!

------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: monster_fsj@hotmail.com
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"

[porkchop]

Hey, Todd, you are welcome and glade I can help. I always feel like that guy in prison that can get you what you need just give me some time.

------------------
'67/'79 Wagoneer mix
“Old Timer”
Check it out! (http://members.fortunecity.com/porkchopsfsj)

Mods, Mods, and more Mods! The end is no where in site, but I am sure I am closer to the fork in the road.

[River Beast]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by porkchop:
Hey, Todd, you are welcome and glade I can help. I always feel like that guy in prison that can get you what you need just give me some time.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL... your my "Connection" http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
Todd
78 Wagoneer, "River Beast"
360/TH400/QT (maybe changin' QT soon to a Dana 18/20)
Dana 44's locked w/ 4.89's
39.50x15x15 Super Swamper TSL's on 15x12 Eagle 589's
7" SOA in front-7" Rear Shackle Inversion Mods
4" Skyjacker Softride
3" Trailmaster Bodylift
My FSJ site: http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life (http://www.geocities.com/spazz4life)
The "NEW" River Beast Preview site: <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjnkk </A>
My E-mail: riverbeast@earthlink.net
"When approaching an intersection, remember...
the vehicle with the BIGGEST TIRES has the right of way..."

'93 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban...a.k.a. "FSJ Hauler"