Wheel hop on Q-Trac

[Narnian]

I've been driving my 81 Laredo for a week now and noticed something I don't remember happening on my 79 Chief (of course I haven't had the Chief for eight years . . .)

If I make a tight low speed turn on pavement, it feels like the inner wheel hops a little bit. Kinda like the Q-trac is locking the front differential for me. Is this how the later Q-trac is supposed to work, or is something wrong? Or, did my 79 do the same thing and I just don't remember it?

[RustyJeep]

Here's a question: Is your E-Drive flipped on? That's kind of what it sounds like your problem is there. I'd check that first.

[scotty]

there is no E drive in 81. the "quadra trac" you are refering to in 81 is a New Process 219(i really wish you guys would use the numbers instead of general names for the NP cases) and is nothing like the borg-warner quadra trac. with the 219 you have: high lock/full time 4 high/neutral/low lock. 4 positions on shifter,no goofy vaccum switches or actuators to worry about. unless you have a very tight limited slip or locking rear differential,you should not experience any wheel hopping in full time 4wd. the t case has a differential just like the axles to allow for different speeds(between the front/rear driveshafts in the case of the transfer case) on pavement. i would venture to guess that you are driving in "high lock" if you are experiencing binding and wheel hopping around turns. where is your plastic flag? is it all the way on the floor,or is it up one notch? if its all the way on the floor,you are in high lock. pull it up to the next position. if it wont move,youve pulled it too far and youre in neutral. now you should be in full time 4wd.your binding should be gone.



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[Narnian]

It's not all the way on the floor, but it might not be in neutral either. (R U saying it SHOULD be in the neutral position?). I'll go play with that this afternoon.

[Narnian]

Lo and behold, I found the owners manual inside. Your instructions are pretty much the same. But I did not have it in 4HiLock. I had it in 4 High. I drove down the alley and switched from 4 high to 4 high lock (the little light came on), then back to 4 high, then to nuetral (I know it was nuetral cause I had no power anywhere), then back to 4High. Then I went out on pavement and tried a tight turn. I STILL have binding and wheel hop.

Any ideas?

[scotty]

hmmmm...maybe you do have a limited slip or some sort of traction device in the rear.first thing id do is remove the front driveshaft. you should not be ble to move in 4 hi with the driveshaft removed.all power should spin out the front output.now put it in high lock and drive without the front driveshaft. if your binding is still there youve probably got a traction device in the rear(the noise is coming from the rear,right?). pop off the cover and tell us what the diff looks like.

if the binding is gone with the front driveshaft removed, you probably have a standard open diff and something wrong with the t case,tho i couldnt really imagine what.it may be worth replacing the front driveshaft and repeating the test with the rear removed,just for sh**s and giggles...

if you put it in high lock and make the sharp turn,does it feel the same,or does it feel different?

i ran a 219 in my amc eagle and in my grand wagoneer for 2 years and never had any binding or popping in full time 4 hi.

it sure sounds like for some reason its not in full time 4 hi- how long have you had this tuck? are you sure that the t case is stock? is the circular id tag on the rear of the t case still there? is this case definately a 219?




------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[Narnian]

The binding is coming from the front, but thee is no popping sound. The tire may chirp a bit as it breaks loose and catches, but no mechanical sounds at all.

I've only had the thing a week and haven't looked at the diffs to see if they were stock. I just assumed they were. The previous owner told me he took the front shaft out for a few months because the "locking front Diff" bothered him. I thought he didn't know what he was talking about. What you're saying though, is that it couldn't be stuck in 4HI because he wouldn't have been able to move that way.

I'll have to take a look at that front hub. Since it is reversed, the tag would be in front, right?

Should I be popping of the cover on the front?

[ClarkGriswald]

The previous owner told me he took the front shaft out for a few months because the "locking front Diff" bothered him.

I think thats a big ole clue, if someone put in a locker in the front or one of the many types of semi locking devices. than this would probabley affect your steering and cause a chirping effect if was indeed locked.
I think you should determine if you infact have a locking\limited slip device in your front end.. depending on what transfer case you have, if it was one that had a 2wheel drive mode and could run with manual hubs. you could unlock the front hubs, and then the front diff would be out of the circuit. and in normal driving the wheels would just freewheel thru the turns.. and then lock that baby in for offroad.. .. your not supposed to use unlocking hubs with a NP229.. can anyone clarify why this is.. I think I have a grasp on it but still a little foggy... could use a refresher\verification.. ... Good Luck.

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[Narnian]

Well, I guess I'll have to run it by my local mechanic. I've never pulled a differential apart before, so I wouldn't know if someone had added some kind of locking or limited slip to it. I kinda thought there was some kind of limited slip there to start with, which made the Quadra trac Quadra-trac, but I've heard many variations on the Q-Trac definition over the years. I do know that I don't remember my 79 working like this. Maybe I should post that question and see how many different answers we get: "What is Quadra-Trac?"

[ClarkGriswald]

Ok I agree what is quad trac?..
I dont think that the NP cases of these years that we are talking about are known as Q-track.. they are a different thing right? just cause its a full time case doesnt mean its a q-trac right??/ http://www.d-p-g.com/jp/currentissue/html/tc1.htm
------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[This message has been edited by ClarkGriswald (edited August 06, 2000).]

[scotty]

when anyone says "quadra trac" most people im sure think of the borg-warner 1305 or 1350. ths was an aluminum chain drive transfer case that had a passenger side front output. the BW t cases were full time,no 2wd. you had an emergency drive that locked the center diff,making it "undifferentiated 4 wheel drive" like a conventional part time case in 4wd. not all quadra tracs had a low range. it was an option that bolted onto the rear of thae case,and could be added to any. a BW 1305 was a quadra trac without lo range,and a BW 1350 is a quara trac with low range. the BW t cases used a unique clutch setup that wqas really revolutionary when it came out to help eliminate power floating from one driveshaft to the other like was possible with the full time 203 that had a simple open center diff. the E drive diff lock was for extreme situations where available traction caused the power to override the clutches and float to one driveshaft or the other. e drive could be used in high or low range.

a brief over view:BW quadra tracs had a lever for high/N/low and a switch for "emergency drive". it gave you the same basic options as chevys 203,but had a stupid vaccum switch and lever instead of 1 simple lever. these options are: full time high range,full time low range,locked high range,or locked low range. and neutral.

the BW q trac was only available behind a th400 tranny. it has a similar bolt pattern to a dana 20,but the big lon goofy output shaft on the th 400 runs deep into the case,so you can only replace a q trac with another q trac,unless you get an adapter,and disassemble the tranny and swap output shafts.

in 1980,full size jeeps switched to a chrysler transmission,either a 904 or a 727,and also switched to new process(which is now new venture gear) transfer cases. the 219 that you guys insist on calling quadra trac is so named by jeep because it was the replacement for the BW 1305 and 1350 of the same name. the new process cases have a circular front mounting pattern that is nothing like a dana 20 or a BW q trac.(it is the same mounting pattern as the dana 300 used in 80 and up cjs) and also all jeep new process cases use a driver side front differential.

the 219 is similar to the BW q trac only in the fact that it is full time 4wd and has no 2wd mode.it has a single simple shifter,with high lock,low lock,neutral,and full time 4wd. it has no full time low range.

the previous owner of your jeep probsbly did not understand the operation of the t case or the front axle. if he drove it in fulltime mode with no driveshaft,it is either not a 219 or it has internal problems. if your t case were a 208 and you drove in the 219 "full time 4wd" position,on the 208 it would actually be in 4wd,wich is not useable on pavement ina 208. look on the back side between the drain and fill plugs-there should be a circular tag with some numbers on it-wipe off the grime and see if any of the numbers is a "208" or a "219". this should definately help us figure out whats going on with your t case.

if i left anything ut,i apologize-its gettting alittle late,and im getting alittle sleepy.

check for an id tag(it is possible someone has replaced your 219 with a 208) and take off the front cover and let us know what you see. you will see a simple set up of gears,or some gears with some funky looking springs,or a more or less solid piece with the ring gear bolted to it.

good night for now...

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

[Narnian]

I'll try and go look at the numbers during lunch.

The Quadra Trac I had on my 79 was fantastic. I know jeep called what I have in the 81 Quadra Trac also, but I didn't know (until I started reading this forum) that they had changed the mechanics and were still calling it Quadra Trac. Was the setup I had in my 79 better?

[Narnian]

I couldn't find a round tag, but I may not have been looking in the right place.

I found a rectagle shaped tag on the front of the differential that said:

5359663
3.31 43-13

Should the round tag be on the top of the differential? I didn't want to stick my head up there with my office clothes on.

[ClarkGriswald]

The round tag should be on the rear of the case near the oil fill\drain holes.
Notice on this link there are pics of the NP208,229,219 ect... all of them show the round tags near the bottom rear of the case.. The 229 shows it the most clearly as it is greasy and the tag has been cleaned off and appears silvery.. http://www.d-p-g.com/jp/currentissue/html/tc3.htm
------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[This message has been edited by ClarkGriswald (edited August 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ClarkGriswald (edited August 07, 2000).]

[Narnian]

Well DDUUUUUHHH! I was looking at the differential, not the transfer case. (wot a ninny I is). I thought you wanted to know what differential it had.

I found the tag quick enough, and it was pretty clean too. I believe it's a 219. It sez:

219
M (?)
535
9646 (?)
625
81
261
(?) means it wasn't pressed hard enough to read clearly.

[This message has been edited by Narnian (edited August 07, 2000).]

[Narnian]

Any more ideas?

[scotty]

do the turns feel the same wether you are in "full time high" or "high lock"? or is the binding worse in high lock?



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[ClarkGriswald]

Is it just me or should he not be trying to use any of the "Lock" position's on pavement???.. Does this not lead to a windup of the gearing and damage to the x-case? .

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[scotty]

yes.the "lock" positions are only for low traction surfaces-snow,mud,green jello.you should not use high lock on pavement,except for diagnostic purposes. we are simply trying to determine if his x case is staying permantly in high lock,wether the shifter is in high lock or full time high. he should not have any binding in full time 4 high from the front end. either he has a front traction device,which is unlikely, or he has some internal transfer case problems,though i couldnt imagine what.

before i actually pulled the xfer case,i would pull first the front driveshaft,drive it in high lock,then the pull the rear and drive it again in high lock,and see if the binding is any different in either situation. while the front is out,spin the yoke on the front end with the tires not touching the ground. spin easily? any "flat spots" or crunching noises? id also pop off the diff cover and see what the diff looks like.

the only other thing that comes to mind, is tire rubbing- are you sure your problem is driveline binding,and not tires rubbing the leaf springs due to im properly adjusted steering stops?



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[scotty]

HEY! narnian, i just noticed that your posts say cincinnatti,ohio. i live in dayton. it is quite feasible for me to come on down to cinci and help you figure this thing out. send me some e mail direct,or give me a call at work if youre interested. 937 435 5448. ill be there from about 2:00 to probably 10:00 or so.

------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[Narnian]

Very cool Scotty! I thought you were in Montana for some reason. I'd love to get together with you, even if just to share a hot dog. I actually live in Hamilton Ohio, which is MUCH closer to you than Cinci. I'll try and call you this afternoon.

I left the jeep at home today, and took the Vette to work. I figured I should ease up on driving it a bit since I might be doing more damage. Unfortunately, the water pump in the Vette decided that today was the day to die!

I will at least try the 4High thing on pavement tonight when I get home (IF I get home! Vette is here, and toolkit is there.). The "rubbing against something" idea is a real good possibility. It has 33 1/2 X 12's on it, and they may not completely clear everything stock. Of course, this kid DID say it worked when he took out the front drive shaft . . .

[BobBarry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Narnian:
Any more ideas? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. It could be normal. My NP229 causes a little "grabbing" when making tight corners (like at full steering lock in a parking-lot) in 4-HI (it has no lock feature in that range). The viscous coupler is providing a partial lockup to prevent a wide variation between front and rear driveshaft speeds; when turning a tight corner, the front driveshaft is turning at a very different speed than the rear, and the VC is trying to compensate. I suppose if your VC is in particularly good shape, it might even cause tire chirping.

The fact that it even moves at all with the front driveshaft removed, however, indicates that it must be in the 4-HI-Lock position. It may be as simple as a linkage adjustment.

------------------
Bob Barry<UL TYPE=SQUARE>* '78 Cherokee 4-door
* '88 Grand Wagoneer[/list]http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/

[Narnian]

I was kinda hoping it was normal. I DO get a little wheel chirping on occasion. The kid who sold me the thing told me that when he put in a new motor, the tow company trashed his transmission, so they paid to rebuild the transmission AND the transfer case. Since this has a completely different setup than my 79, it would make sense that it works differently. But I'd like to be sure.

[scotty]

this is true. i never had any wheel chirping in the eagle,but the 219 i was running in it prolly had a very tired viscuous coupling. i guess it may be possible for a very tight turn with a VC in very good shape might actually make the tires chirp alittle...

but it should not have moved very far for very long with no front shaft in fulltime 4 high...


------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[ClarkGriswald]

Dont VC's destroy themselves when in fulltime mode with a driveshaft missing?? be carefull ya dont do that..

------------------
88 Grand Wagoneer
D44's front\rear
AMC 360
TF 727
NP 229 (Funky)
Bone Stock (for now)
NO RUNNING BOARDS!

[Narnian]

I wouldn't even consider pulling the drive shaft out and running it like that. What's the point in having full time 4wd if you pull the front shaft? I might as well keep the Jimmy. I'm just worried that it is somehow stuck in 4HI and I'm trashing something.

I haven't had a chance to play. I had too much trouble with the Vette yesterday and rode a tow truck home with it. I'm not sure yet, but I think I "spun a bearing" or something eveil way down in the Vette motor.

There goes my FI for the Laredo! I'll be spending big bucks to fix the Vette motor I'm sure.

[Ray Stephens]

The new quadratrac II systems at our dealership will "hop" a little if you turn it all the way to the stops. I would assume that if you have a good viscous coupling a quadratrac system would have the same symptom.

[FSJman]

i would check and make sure the tires are not hitting the springs at full turn. or fenders with bigger than stock tires this is possiple.

when i first put on my 31 10.50's the passenger side tire was rubbing on the front of the spring when i turned left. i had to adjust the turn stops.


before i put my body lift on my right rear would rub under hard left turns while accelarateing.



------------------
FSJman
amc 360 bored 60 over
edelbrock 4bbl 650 s/p carb
accel super coil
coustom exhaust
b/m star shifter
3 inch body lift
coustom front bumper
tow package
31/10.50 BFG AT

[Narnian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Stephens:
The new quadratrac II systems at our dealership will "hop" a little if you turn it all the way to the stops. I would assume that if you have a good viscous coupling a quadratrac system would have the same symptom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really hope that's the case. It makes tight turns in a parking lot a little annoying. I was going to wait until Scotty and I could get together to have him take a peek. Do you think a Jeep dealership would be able to tell me if it's working right?

I slapped it into 4Hi Lock, and it felt exactly the same.

[Narnian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FSJman:
i would check and make sure the tires are not hitting the springs at full turn. or fenders with bigger than stock tires this is possiple.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not 100% sure, but I don't think it's rubbing. There are no signs of scuffing on the tires, and the wheel wells on a wide track are pretty darned huge.

[BobBarry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Narnian:
I really hope that's the case. It makes tight turns in a parking lot a little annoying. I was going to wait until Scotty and I could get together to have him take a peek. Do you think a Jeep dealership would be able to tell me if it's working right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh... I bet they wouldn't even believe it's a Jeep! It's the rare dealership who even recognizes what they are; even rarer are the ones who are willing to work on them; even rarer still are those who are COMPETENT to work on them... http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/frown.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I slapped it into 4Hi Lock, and it felt exactly the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If your lever isn't properly adjusted, you may not be engaging 4Hi-Normal.

------------------
Bob Barry<UL TYPE=SQUARE>* '78 Cherokee 4-door
* '88 Grand Wagoneer[/list]http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/

[ClarkstonGT]

FWIW, I had a '94 Grand Cherokee that had the same symptoms as what you describe. I always assumed it was normal and had something to do with the full time 4wd. After it met with an untimely demise, I bought my '88 GW. What a surprise. The GW drive train was a lot quieter and I didn't experience any binding even in 4 Hi. Also, the turning radius is much tighter on the GW. I really didn't expect that.

[Mikel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClarkstonGT:
FWIW, I had a '94 Grand Cherokee that had the same symptoms as what you describe. I always assumed it was normal and had something to do with the full time 4wd. After it met with an untimely demise, I bought my '88 GW. What a surprise. The GW drive train was a lot quieter and I didn't experience any binding even in 4 Hi. Also, the turning radius is much tighter on the GW. I really didn't expect that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It always amazes me how tight the turning radius in our rigs is (given they are humongous) http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~zeimet/ubb/smile.gif
Mikel

1978 Jeep Cherokee Chief 360/T-18A/D20

[Narnian]

Well, I guess I need to either find a qualified mechanic, or go visit Scotty!

Like I said erly in the post, my 79 Quadra trac did not work like this. There is a good chance it is stuck in 4HI Lock, and I'm going to tear the thing to shreds.

[Narnian]

I just got off the phone with the service department at the Jeep dealership near my house. The head mechanic there says he's very familiar with the old Jeep - he's been there a while.

He says it would be normal to have a lttle wheel hop, but that it wouldn't hurt to stop by with it and have him take a peek. If I get up early enough, I'll pop by there in the morning and see what he says.

[scotty]

narnian,
im off thursday,friday and sunday.im hoping to do some more research on my small block chevy swap,then work on my new truck on thursday. if you wanna get together any of these days give me a call at work tomorrow or sat,or send me some email direct.

one my friends just traded his 72 camaro for a cj7 with full width chevy axles and a 304,so hopefully well be doing some 'wheeling soon. ill definately give you a call if any definate plans are made.

i just picked up an 81 j20 to use as a tow vehicle,and i want to get it up and running so i can drive it to work a few times.



------------------
scott
85 grand wagoneer
258 with motorcraft 2bbl/904/twin stick dana 300/dana 44/welded amc 20
38x15.5 gumbo mudders
snorkel/dual batteries/onboard air/"custom" convertable
3 inch body lift/mostly stock suspension/"modified" fender openings
custom front/rear bumpers and brushgaurd

possible small block chevy "test" swap in near future

[Narnian]

I might be able to pop up there on Thursday evening. I'll try and let you know today sometime.

I stopped by the Jeep service shop this morning. Friendly old white haired technician. He can still remember when they came out with the FSJ's. He said it was normal to have some wheel hop on my QuadraTrack, and that having fatter tires would exaggerate it.
He then drove it around the parking lot and was convinced my tires were rubbing. We looked underneath and couldn't see anyplace that it could possibly make contact. It has a 1" lift and those tremendous wheel wells. However he pointed out a slight discoloring on one of the tires that he thought was a rub mark. So it might just be rubbing. Either way, he said not to worry about it.

I took it in the dirt twenty minutes later and tried the same turn. I can feel the hop, but just barely. In fact, it feels normal in the dirt and you have to try to feel the hop to notice it. My opinion, it's not rubbing, or I'd have felt the hop on dirt as easily as on the pavement. I think his first guess is right though. It's normal hop, and the wide tires are exaggerating the amount of skipping it's doing. Stock tires were 31x11.5" wide, these are 33x12.5". That gives you at least two more inches total width. With Q-Track, that might be just enough difference to trigger the hop in a recently rebuilt T-case.