What springs with a 14 bolt??

[The Donzi]

I am getting ready to install my new 14 bolt and I need some adveice on what rear springs to use so I can clear the gas tank. I searched alot and found some good info but no real clear input on how this setup works out....

I have RB's shackle kit for the rear so I am thinking about flipping the mounts around and using some 63" springs. Any advice for or against this?? How much lift will I gain with stock 93' 3/4 ton burb springs??? I am currently SOA up front with stock springs and extended chevy shackles, and stock springs and a 2" block in the rear.

Thanks...I want to get it right so fill me in on all the drawbacks..

[blt2krl]

I run 63in burb springs out back with RB's kit. I used the springs to move my axle back (3- 3.5 inches) and out of the way of the gas tank. I have zero interference with full cycling of the suspension. I run rancho 44044's up front which are 2.5 in lift spirngs, for the rear I run the burb springs with the overload removed. It sits perfect. So if you take out the overload you have a 2.5 inch lift spring and if you leave the overload in you would have about a 4in lift spring. This setup flexes like crazy.
http://www.planet4x4.net/phpBB2/album_pic.php?pic_id=580
http://www.planet4x4.net/phpBB2/album_pic.php?pic_id=578

[Bob Barry]

Well, here are some pics to give you an idea of what kind of interference you'll see with the stock tank:

http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/cherokee/ra04.jpg

Just to the right of the tank, you can see the ghostly image of the QT reduction unit; on a centered-output transfer-case, that is where the output shaft would be.

Perhaps it is clearer how much interference there is from a shot straight on from the rear:

http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/cherokee/big01.jpg

As you can see, you would have to run a ridiculous amount of lift, and a very skinny driveshaft, to ensure that nothing ever hit the gas-tank.

If you were running the stock QT case, you might get away with it.

FWIW, those are stock 5-leaf Cherokee springs. The shackle-flip and 2" extended shackles netted me about 9.5" of lift in the back with those stock springs. It's already riding kind of high in back:

http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/cherokee/big04.jpg

I can't imagine that 4" lift springs or whatever it would take to just clear the tank with no articulation would improve the offroadability of the truck. Those 63" Suburban springs sound like just the ticket for flex, but they won't help you clear that gas-tank.

I think that's why a switch to a Bronco or Blazer tank behind the axle is the way most people go; it's simple enough to swap, and it gets rid of any chance of interference. That is, unless you move the rear axle back too far; then the pumpkin might scrape the tank. Even with mine moved back 3", it doesn't look like it's going to touch the tank.

[The Donzi]

Well, now I'm a little confused. If I run the 63" burb springs without the overload with a stock QT with offset output will I still hit the tank???? Or will I be alright??

Bob, it sounds like the interferance you are talking about is due to a centered output?? I am running a stock QT output and a stock tank...any issues with this and the 14 bolt with 63" springs or is it just a problem with a centered output??

[blt2krl]

Let me clarify that I run a QT transfer case and there is ZERO interference with the gas tank, driveshaft, or axle (which is a 14 bolt) with 63in bufrb springs. My drive shaft is a custom made shaft from Arizona driveshafts. It is 3in tube and .75 wall with 1350 series u-joints. If your running a centered t-case the gas tank will be in the way regardless. I'm removing my stock tank to clean the under belly up and prepare for one of those Atlas t-cases, when and if the QT goes south. Yes with RB's kit installed the way he has ment the kit to be insatlled the springs will move your axle back 3-3.5 inches and it will help clear the tank in a QT vehicle.

[Bob Barry]

Ah, you're both running the stock QT. Yes, then you won't have to move the tank.

I'm going to be running an NP205, and blt2krl is right on; there is no way it would work with that tank there.

I'll be putting in my dual-exhaust mufflers on each side of the driveshaft, and rigging up some kind of anti-wrap-bar in there as well, so that side will still be occupied.

How bad is your front shaft angle with the QT? I thought about trying to hook mine up, just to see if it would reach, but the angle would be severe at the pinion.

[The Donzi]

Blt2krl: that is some awesome flex, what did you get your rear springs out of?? Are all the 63" springs basically the same??

Thanks for the input guys...I've found that the more time I spend learnig from others the less time I spend kicking myself in the @$$ later.. :D

[blt2krl]

Originally posted by The Donzi:
Blt2krl: that is some awesome flex, what did you get your rear springs out of?? Are all the 63" springs basically the same??

Thanks for the input guys...I've found that the more time I spend learnig from others the less time I spend kicking myself in the @$$ later.. :D 93 half ton suburban, My front drive shaft is also an AZ drivline highangle. is has a max angle of 40 degrees.

[The Donzi]

My front shaft is from Arizona Drivelines as well, I got the high angle long spline and it is pretty stout compared to stock.

Blt2krl; did you change the yoke on the QT to fit 1350?? Or are you running a conversion ujoint? I was planning on just keeping the stock rear shaft for now and using a conversion joint...any problems with doing that??

[River Beast]

I guess all the Q's have been answered... thanks Paul.. ;)

I run my kit swapped... meaning rear brackets left to right and right to left on the 96 Burb springs I have and got 4.5" of rearward relocation... and gained about 2" of lift with the overloads trashed...FYI

I also have a custom rear CV shaft from AZ Driveline.... 1310 CV at the D20 and 1350 slip yoke at the 14FF with a 3.5" thickwall tube...

Front shaft is a high angle custom CV that I relieved myself... workin so far.. but AZD will get my wallet for the 40 degree high angle when this one frags out... ;)

[ November 17, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: River Beast ]

[The Donzi]

Thanks for all the input guys... heres a pic of my new 14bolt...I know I have it on another post but I can't help it ;) ....

http://www.superford.org/getfile.php?id=94536&toggle=fullsize&filename=DSCF0172jeffs%20axle.JPG

[rockjeep44]

Donzi, pretty much everything has been covered but I'd like to add that there is quite a difference between the 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton Chevy springs. If you plan on doing towing, hauling, etc go with the 3/4. If you plan on mostly offroading go with the 1/2 ton. The last waggy I built I used the 1/2 ton chevy pickup springs in the rear and 2.5in rancho 44044s in the front. I removed the overload from the chevy springs which made it a 3 leaf pack. I can say that they are extremely soft and very flexy and matched the front 44044s perfectly with Todd's kit. I did however have to install Todd's kit custom because the chevy springs were so long at ride height the shackle angle was almost flat it was pushed so far back. I just moved Todd's brackets further back on the frame and gusseted it with some brackets. Worked great but requires a welder, grinder, etc. Also, fuel cells are quite cheap, I'd ditch that coffin tank anyways. It makes the underside SO NICE
-Andrew

[rockjeep44]

finished product:

http://www.rebelrockrunners.org/galleries/andrews/joes/images/L1020178.jpg

http://www.rebelrockrunners.org/galleries/andrews/joes/images/L1020179.jpg

[ November 17, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: rockjeep44 ]

[blt2krl]

Originally posted by The Donzi:

Blt2krl; did you change the yoke on the QT to fit 1350?? Or are you running a conversion ujoint? I was planning on just keeping the stock rear shaft for now and using a conversion joint...any problems with doing that??I have a 1350 series yoke on my QT. You could use a conversion joint. I personally decided to go the other route. I have one extra yoke if ya want to buy it. :D I know that AZ sells them for about $140, i bought two for $130. I would sell it to ya for $65 + shipping. It is a dana 20 yoke, 10 spline. PM if ya want the details on the swap and install.

[Zorm]

Hey Bob, on your corp 14, di you need to remove the GM spring perches? I have a 14 bolt that I am putting under my 83 Chero. Right now I have the AMC 20 in the rear and it is centered diff, Do any one know if I would run into the tank interferance this also??
Donzi, did you paint that or get it painted??

[blt2krl]

You maybe fine since you all ready have a centered diff. The pinion on the 14 bolt should be a little more to the right than your 20 right now. For the 14 bolt to bolt in you need to move the perches ro 43.5 to match your rig's spring setup.

[Bob Barry]

Originally posted by Zorm:
Hey Bob, on your corp 14, di you need to remove the GM spring perches? I have a 14 bolt that I am putting under my 83 Chero. Right now I have the AMC 20 in the rear and it is centered diff, Do any one know if I would run into the tank interferance this also?I made my spring-eye brackets wider on purpose, as the perches on the 14-bolt were 1" closer together than on a stock FSJ axle. To facilitate future axle and spring swaps, I used a U-channel wider than the springs, to accomodate a range of factory spring-perches, and I will take up the extra space with plate spacers.

[The Donzi]

Originally posted by Zorm:
Donzi, did you paint that or get it painted??I painted it using rattle can gloss and some model paints.

[blt2krl]

Donzi check your PM's

[oldyellowwagoneer]

Well, since as far as i know I was the first to use the suburban springs I figured I should chime in here and explain why I like them. The first reason for using them was so I could get the rear axle pushed backward to enable me to run 38" swampers without having to cut into the front edge of the rear wheelwell,I just cut the back out and kept it reasonably stock looking. The other reason was so my dana 70 wouldnt hit the gas tank on full compression(yes I found out the hard way).With the quadratrac I had no problem with the driveshaft, but when I went to a centered np203 I couldn't clear the stock tank. I put in an aftermarket aux. tank I found in the wrecking yard for $7.50 to solve that problem. With late model tanks I think you might clear just fine as they're narrower but I'm not positive. The ride difference with these springs as compared to either stock or lift springs is like night and day. We mostly have mud and sand to play in so it wasn't necessary to remove the overloads in my case although once I get my doubler in I will be experimenting without them. They allowed me to eleminate blocks altogether in the rear and there's no axle wrap.I have SOA and 4" springs up front and when theres nothing in the back it sits up about1 1/2" higher than the front.Between them and the Dodge shackle mounts I used to build my shackle flip kit I have a total of $90.00 in the whole rear lift. Dennis

[scotty]

on the 14 bolt into a 80+ rig with the plasic tank,id ditch it,cause,well,its plastic smile.gif it wont take many hits on a jagged rock ;)

other than that,when i was still running a factory m20 and the factroy plastic tank,my rear shaft was very close to touching it,and actually did run on it when the tank started to sag.

if you choose to leave the plastic tank,you can prolly get away with it,but i dont believe youll be able to use a beefy rear d-shaft,youll be stuck with a stock diameter for clearance.

my current setup is a bed mounted tank,factory springs in a factory orientation with shackles pointed up,and a 4" block. i run dual "red ryder" shocks fromthe 'Zone on a fabbed bracket.

this allows it to sit level with a 6" chevy Tuff Country lift spring that gives me about 3.5-4" of lift in a SUA configuration.

i want to keep my CG as low as possible,and i didnt want to do the shackle flip to elimate the rear blocks cause i dont like the ide aof dragging the shackles and springs on ledges that i drop of of :eek:

ill eventually be replacing my rear springs/blocks with another tuff country chevy lift spring,and leaving the upwards shackles.

many ways to skin the cat ;)

[oldyellowwagoneer]

Originally posted by scotty:
on the 14 bolt into a 80+ rig with the plasic tank,id ditch it,cause,well,its plastic smile.gif it wont take many hits on a jagged rock ;)
*** I thought that was what the metal skidplate was for? ***
other than that,when i was still running a factory m20 and the factroy plastic tank,my rear shaft was very close to touching it,and actually did run on it when the tank started to sag.
***The skidplate should be taking care of that also.***
if you choose to leave the plastic tank,you can prolly get away with it,but i dont believe youll be able to use a beefy rear d-shaft,youll be stuck with a stock diameter for clearance.
*** And a thick wall 2 1/2" tube somehow isnt strong enough? ***
my current setup is a bed mounted tank,factory springs in a factory orientation with shackles pointed up,and a 4" block. i run dual "red ryder" shocks fromthe 'Zone on a fabbed bracket.
*** I dont want to ever have to worry about blocks and the axle wrap involved nor the limiting effect of dual shocks in the rear,or the front for that matter. As for the gas tank I have a wagoneer that carries me and my family so a bed mounted tank is out of the question ***
this allows it to sit level with a 6" chevy Tuff Country lift spring that gives me about 3.5-4" of lift in a SUA configuration.
*** My situation is a little different since I have SOA with 4" springs.I also wanted flatter springs so I can get the articulation I was looking for without loosing the ride I wanted. ***
i want to keep my CG as low as possible,and i didnt want to do the shackle flip to elimate the rear blocks cause i dont like the ide aof dragging the shackles and springs on ledges that i drop of of :eek:
*** Once again I play in mud and sand mostly with ocassionally rock so it hasn't been a problem yet. ***
ill eventually be replacing my rear springs/blocks with another tuff country chevy lift spring,and leaving the upwards shackles.
***You mean an even more arched spring? That sure aint gonna help with the ride. ***
many ways to skin the cat ;)

[ November 23, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: scoutgrl ]

[scotty]

*** I thought that was what the metal skidplate was for? ***

my metal "skidplate" if ypu want to call it that wansnt of much help. its pretty thin metal in the first place,so i dont think it was offering much in the way of protection,and mine like many 80+ rigs was rotting out,and letting the tank sag.

*** And a thick wall 2 1/2" tube somehow isnt strong enough? ***

many people like the looks of a big beefy 4 or 5" shaft with 1350 sized u joints. :cool: but i dont think youll fit one that big with the plastic tank. i dont really know the strength differences in a thickwall 2.5" shaft,and a 5" shaft,maybe the only reason to go with the bigger one is cosmetic. ya know,the BLING factor tongue.gif 2.5" thickwall shaft may very well be just fine,if a person wants to leave the plastic tank in place.

*** I dont want to ever have to worry about blocks and the axle wrap involved nor the limiting effect of dual shocks in the rear,or the front for that matter. As for the gas tank I have a wagoneer that carries me and my family so a bed mounted tank is out of the question ***

i didnt install dual shocks to help axle wrap.i installed them so i could drive really fast over the uneven terrain in the open spots at haspin smile.gif they are mounted completely vertically and do not limit my articulation at all. im sure my pinion moves,but it doesnt really seem to be causing a prollem,since i set the angle where i wanted it when i installed the rear end. at any rate,this is why i evetnually want to replace the springs with something else. i do plan to add a 2nd shock tothe front as well.again,to help with the "drive fast" aspect

my GW is a dedicated trail rig,and has no top,so a bed mounted tank makes sense for me. ive always liked the idea of haveing as little as possible on the underside to get caught on stuff or suction me into the mud.

*** My situation is a little different since I have SOA with 4" springs.I also wanted flatter springs so I can get the articulation I was looking for without loosing the ride I wanted. ***

ok. smile.gif

*** Once again I play in mud and sand mostly with ocassionally rock so it hasn't been a problem yet. ***

my trails have lots of ledges,dropoffs,and off camber spots. i dont jump in the mudholes nearly as often as i used to,cause the cleanup after is not fun ;)

***You mean an even more arched spring? That sure aint gonna help with the ride. ***

this is why i used the tuff countrys up front.they flex great for a lift spring,and the ride is good. soft enuff to compress it all the way to the bumpstop,yet just firm enuff to drive fast over "washboard" terrain without jarring your teeth out. i think an arched tuff country spring will give me good enuff flex,and the ride i want,and elimiate the blocks.eventually i do plan to also add some sort of traction bar,since the rear axle is always going to be SOA,no matter what kind of spring im using.

last and not least,i apologize if you for some reason think i was picking on you or criticizing your setup,as your post with a rebuttal to all my comments somewhat indicates.

this was not my intention at all,lots of us have different expectations for our rigs,and i definately was not criticizing the way youve set yours up.nor anyone who runs the flipped shackles,for that matter.

i was merely sharing my setup and the reasons i did it the way i did,for those that may have some interest.usually when i want feedback,i like as many different opinions as i can get.

like i said,many ways to skin the cat smile.gif

[oldyellowwagoneer]

There's no apology needed as I was rebutting you not rebuking you. My intention was to point out the highlights of both ways we "skin cats" to give the most info to others so they may decide the pros and cons of both. Dennis

[scotty]

cool :cool: