o/d possible in GW with selec-trac?

[francis higgins]

Hey guys. Any of you using an overdrive in your GW? It would sure make it nicer taking trips. I was considering using a (built) 42rh from a newer Cherokee with a 4.0. I've heard the bolt pattern is the same for the 360/258/4.0 engines. Can anybody give input on this? Thanks a bunch!

[JeepFreak]

This has been discussed many times on this forum and the simple answer is no. Now anything is possible for a price. No other maker shares the same bolt pattern with the AMC 360. Now you can get adapters from Advance Adapters but they are pricey. Other options are getting a Chevy 350 mated to a 700R4 tranny. This would give you the over drive that you want but then you would have to find a transfer case that has the same offset for the front and rear axles.

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JeepFreak

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Actually, I have an article from an old 4-Wheel and Offroad magazine showing a 258 to 4.0L engine swap. It had a manual transmission *but* they used the bellhousing on the 4.0 Liter! That would lead me to believe that the 258 and the 4.0 would have the same bolt-pattern. And if the 258 and the 304/360/401's have the same pattern, that would again lead me to believe that it should bolt right up with the proper flexplate/torque converter!

Now unless Jeep used a different 258 in the CJ's, then I'll have to agree with JeepFreak, but I think all 258's are the same! I can attach the article if you'd like to see it.

Oh! If you want to do an entire drivetrain swap minus the axles, you can always strip out a Z-71 and take its 350/700R4/241C combo, but be prepared to pay a VERY pretty penny.

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http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/h/284/24/32842485.jpg

Snakeyes_Tx
86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
360/727/208/44HD/60 <- 2nd of all of them.
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[This message has been edited by Snakeyes_Tx (edited May 02, 2001).]

[rawdave]

this is an interesting question... i know the heads and intake manifold will work from a 4.0 to 258. i have never checked about the transmission. my jeep mechanic has several 258 and 4.0s sitting around. next time I am there, i will do a little comparing...

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87 Grand Wagoneer
TFI Upgrade
Thorley Headers
Working on GM Multi-Port EFI

[rawdave]

snakeyes

i think as long as you use the bell from the new motor, the manual tranny will always work. it is the automatics that have a problem as no seperate bellhousing...

now, that statement comes from someone who has never actually pulled a transmission(me) but i believe it to be true...

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87 Grand Wagoneer
TFI Upgrade
Thorley Headers
Working on GM Multi-Port EFI

[francis higgins]

The idea is to (hopefully) use as much stock stuff as possible and bring the engine/tranny up to par with f.i. and o/d etc. I think everything is available for the AMC/Chrysler combo, somebody just needs to do the legwork to find out what will work. If the tranny does work, it would just require wiring a simple o/d button (and a lockup button if a lockup converter is used).

Snakeyes_Tx: I would like to see the article. Thanks!

[Snakeyes_Tx]

I'm trying to upload my picture, but it seems Honesty.com is going pay site too.. I need a new image hosting website darnit!

Dave, they used the ORIGINAL 258's bellhousing, which proves the bolt-patterns are the same.. I'll upload it just as soon as I find a webhost! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/smile.gif



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http://images.honesty.com/imagedata/h/284/24/32842485.jpg

Snakeyes_Tx
86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
360/727/208/44HD/60 <- 2nd of all of them.
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[francis higgins]

I believe the Cherokees (mid 90s?) that use the 42rh also use a 'selec-trac' transfer case. Any ideas if this is also a NP-229? It would sure make things nice!

[JeepFreak]

Well if this is all the case then you would still have to figure on weather or not the tranny and T Case are up to the task of handling V8 power??? Now I know that the 4.0 was no slouch but still. If you want to make some modes to your engine is that tranny going to make you want to baby it or give her hell??? The torque flite and TH400 used on our rigs are a one piece design so swapping the bell housing is not an option. So you are left with the same question. Is the tranny going to hold up? Do I want to go with a manual? It would take a few years of driving to pay off the gas savings even in our rigs. Now I am going to figure a way to get over drive in mine. Only reason is because I drive mine on the highway allot and the 3,500 rpm thing is getting a little old. My brother has a wrecked Z71 pick up that I had thought I might try to swap the motor and tranny for in mine but I just don't know if I want to go thru all the hassle. I am sure the wear and tear and gas saving would be worth it but it may take a few years of driving it to pay for it.

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JeepFreak

[rawdave]

francis,

for fuel injection check this site
http://members.aol.com/customefis

he has the least expensive multi-port kit by far. i am working with him to put it on mine this summer. he lives about an hour from me and i have met him in person and he seems honest and genuine.

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87 Grand Wagoneer
TFI Upgrade
Thorley Headers
Working on GM Multi-Port EFI

[This message has been edited by rawdave (edited May 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by rawdave (edited May 02, 2001).]

[Snakeyes_Tx]

BAM! Sorry for the size, I just wanted the captions to go through at the bottom of the picture.

http://www.geocities.com/snakeyes_tx/42to40.JPG

You are right though, there's the whole durability issue... but I think it *could* hold up to V-8 power being that the 360 puts out on the average about 245 horse, and the 4.0 puts out something close. (not sure on the exact number) Then there's the whole transfer-case issue. If the selec-trac is the same case, then the spline count would match. And if the 229/228 has the same spline count as the 208.. then BAM! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

You could swap that in too http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/wink.gif BUT... you'll need the tranny-to-transfer adapter from the 42rh.

Honestly, I think the smaller Cherokee's used a case smaller than FSJ's though. Kinda like how GM uses it like this...

Z-71's use a NP241C case
S-10's use a NP231C case (much lighter duty)

Wag's used a 229/228 case
XJ's use a 219 ?? (not sure here)

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http://www.geocities.com/snakeyes_tx/sig.JPG

Snakeyes_Tx
86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
360/727/208/44HD/60 <- 2nd of all of them.
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[This message has been edited by Snakeyes_Tx (edited May 02, 2001).]

[francis higgins]

If the 42rh can be used, it can also be built. From what I understand, the (newer) Chrysler cases are all similar. Mileage isn't so much a concern as engine longevity and highway cruise speed.

As a side note, many of you may be interested to know that Crane cams is working on a hydraulic roller lifter/cam setup for the AMC V-8s. They should be available soon.

[JeepFreak]

My 91 Cherokee was 190 horse and 220 lbs ft of torque. My 98 TJ was basically the same.

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JeepFreak

[JeepFreak]

You know this was making me think! I hear people say that the older rigs just aren't reliable and that they are only good for 100,000 miles or so but did anyone ever stop to think that if they had the overdrive in them that they could probably get lots more miles on them. Heck I have read on here how some guys still have engines with 200,000 miles on them still running! Just a little food for thought.

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JeepFreak

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Okay folks.. next idea.

Since I've got the picture up with the 258 Bellhousing bolted to the 4.0 242ci inline 6, this raises another question. If the today's Grand Cherokee's come with the I-6 or the 4.7 Liter V-8, which also used to be a 5.9 V-8 (chrysler one though) and the trannys are the same... then there's a whole new schpiel of options too! If the I-6 and 5.9 V-8 of the GC have the same tranny then wouldn't that tranny work too? This is a long-shot, but just maybe! I looked at a crate 4.7 Liter that I almost bought for get this, 1,000 bucks with computer and throttle-body attached... and the bellhousing bolt pattern looked strangely familiar! Just more food for thought.

Note : Transfer-cases will be an issue I'm sure!


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http://www.geocities.com/snakeyes_tx/sig.JPG

Snakeyes_Tx
86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
360/727/208/44HD/60 <- 2nd of all of them.
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[francis higgins]

I believe the 4.7 is a Mercedes (Daimler-Chrysler) design, but that doesn't mean it won't share the bolt pattern with the 360 AMC. The 5.9 in the Grand Cherokee is definitely a Chrysler though and will NOT bolt up the same. The only difference on the trannys though should be the bellhousing and electronic instead of hydraulic controls which necessitates the use of a computer. That would be cool to use the 4.7 though! I wonder if they started from scratch or used the same (AMC) starting point.

[JeepFreak]

The GC V8's use the NP242 case so the front shaft would be on the drivers side and the rear shaft would be in the center. The 6 uses the NP231 as Snakeyes stated earlier.

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JeepFreak

[JeepFreak]

OK now I'm really thinking! The Cherokee(small ones) used the NP231 case and that case was used under the half ton Ram pick-ups, Dakotas, and Durango's so I bet it could handle our rigs. Plus with a low range of 2.72:1 this thing would rock! Plus with all the Cherokees out there they should be easy to find. Now I don't remember which side the front shaft is on so that would make a difference.

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JeepFreak

[francis higgins]

So, would the 231 t/c make a SOA conversion a little easier?

[francis higgins]

I know this is completely off the subject, but it is still GW stuff. I asked MMR about revolver shackles for the GW and this was their reply:

Francis,
Although we have never tested the Revolvers on a Grand Wagoneer, simply by
dimension, an RXJ will fit, but they need to be gusseted to accommodate the
weight of the vehicle. Additionally, you will need a universal weld-on
bracket that is offered by a company in Utah:
wildkatoffroad@wildkatoffroad.com. I think they sell for $99. The Custom
Shackles are $213.

Thank you, MMR


Think it could be done?

[JeepFreak]

Well I just checked my buddy's 93 Cherokee and the front drive shaft is on the drivers side so this would lend itself well to the rigs with the NP229.

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JeepFreak

[rawdave]

ok, i just checked with my jeep mechanic and he said that the transmission from the 4.0 would bolt up to the 360 no problem. he said the only things we would have to look at would be the xfer case, flywheel and starter and of course drive shafts and computer if it is computer controlled.

he had a new v8 core in the shop yesterday from a rebuild, but unfortunately they picked it up so he can't compare its bolt pattern.

anyway this swap sounds very promising. i am going to call another shop that my mechanic recommended that does a lot of swaps for jeeps and see what they have to say. i will keep you informed.

i asked him about reliability and he said that he had heard no complaints on the transmission. of course that is behind the 4.0...

d

Ok, spoke with the guy and he said if the 258/4.0 bellhousing would work then the rest will work. he had not tried this with the new automatics but did seem to think it could be done. only questions would be xfer case.

i am going to the junk yard this weekend if i can find time and i will do some studying on the jeeps if i can find one.

d

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87 Grand Wagoneer
TFI Upgrade
Thorley Headers
Working on GM Multi-Port EFI

[This message has been edited by rawdave (edited May 03, 2001).]

[JeepFreak]

Well if it really will bolt right up than you guys with pumkins on the left side got it made! I guess for us with the right side pumkin Atlas is the way to go! Now anyone want to pay for me an Atlas case?

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JeepFreak

[rawdave]

freak,

why not just adapt your transfer case?

d

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87 Grand Wagoneer
TFI Upgrade
Thorley Headers
Working on GM Multi-Port EFI

[JeepFreak]

Well for one when was the last time you saw someone buying an adapter to fit a Quadratrac? There isn't one. Now if the NP242 would bolt up to that tranny I would love to go that route. Maybe even the NP242 HD!!! Thats the same case they use in the Hummers. Only if that tranny would bolt up for sure??? Then you have the whole issue of the flex plate with the right amount of spacing so the pump will work properly but yet still let the starter engage. Also the tranny support cross member will probably have to be moved some what and then drive shafts lenghtend or shortend.

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JeepFreak

[rawdave]

absolutely, no-doubt still a lot of work to do even if everything bolts up perfectly. you still have linkages, x-member, drive shafts and probably a million other little buggers that we haven't even thought about.

once my fuel injection is in; however, i am going to pull a 360 out of the junk yard and get a transmission and start seeing what it would take.

my mechanic lets me use his shop to tinker, so i can do this and take my time about it and see what all might be involved.

when i get started, i will certainly let you all know what i find...

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87 Grand Wagoneer
TFI Upgrade
Thorley Headers
Working on GM Multi-Port EFI

[JeepFreak]

I no longer have a spare block or I would go get a junk tranny to try it out on. Wish I did though. If this would work then more people I think would stick with the AMC V8's rather than using Chevy and Ford engines. This could equal more parts for our rigs! Then maybe we could get a decent timing cover made for our rigs. I think a call could be in order to Advance Adapters to see if they have an inside scoop on what will bolt up.

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JeepFreak

[rawdave]

snakeyes,

the guy i talked to who does a lot of swaps said that if you took the transmission to a "good" transmission shop that specializes in performance transmissions, that even if the stock tranny would not hold up, it could be built to.

d

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87 Grand Wagoneer
TFI Upgrade
Thorley Headers
Working on GM Multi-Port EFI

[This message has been edited by rawdave (edited May 03, 2001).]

[JeepFreak]

Just thought I would copy you guys on an e-mail I sent to JP Magazine. Was thinking that maybe with their connections they could get use some answers.

Hello! My name is Rick colclasure and I am the proud owner of 3 FSJ's. I am a member of the International Full Size Jeep Association www.ifsja.com (http://www.ifsja.com) and with well over 1,000 members I believe that FSJ's are an up and coming hot item for you guys to cover. My question is have you guys ever heard of anyone running a 4 speed auto behind the AMC 360? This has been a question that allot of the members at IFSJA have been trying to find an answer to. We have concluded that the 258 straight 6 and the 360 share the same bolt pattern. I was reading awhile back that people with the 258's were swapping in the 4.0 liters from XJ's. This would lead me to believe that the 4.0 liter in the XJ would have the same bolt pattern as the 360??? What I'm getting at is that we would like to know if it is possible to run say a AW4 (23- spline) or a 42RE behind our 360's? We won't even get into the transfer case options right now because if this swap would work the NP231 should fit the bill in our FSJ's (except for those with the BW1339 case). I am so tired of turning 3,000+ rpms on the highway! Plus the AW4 has a lower first gear (I believe it is 2.80) compared to the 2.48 and 2.45 of the TH400 and TF727. Your input in this matter is greatly appreciated! Also is there anyway you could spread the word about the IFSJA club to other owners of FSJ's. It is a great resource for FSJ owners.

Thanks again!

Rick Colclasure

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JeepFreak



[This message has been edited by JeepFreak (edited May 03, 2001).]

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Doh! Here's an idea... no tranny beefing up or transfer-case issue here..

Check this out. The new Dodge Ram comes with te 4.7 Liter V-8.. they threw away the 318's finally.

The 4.7 V8 first came out in Grand Cherokees. They also had the optional 5.9 (360). They use the same Auto overdrive tranny. They have *driver's* drop front axles. BAM!

V-8'able tranny and transfer-case. Done deal.. hope JP comes back quick with the reply! Also, I've seen quite a few FSJ's in Petersen's 4-Wheel and Off-road... might wanna write them too! http://www.ifsja.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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http://www.geocities.com/snakeyes_tx/sig.JPG

Snakeyes_Tx
86 J-20 "The Rusty Dinosaur"
360/727/208/44HD/60 <- 2nd of all of them.
"If you don't know what the numbers mean, you don't need to be here!"

[This message has been edited by Snakeyes_Tx (edited May 03, 2001).]

[JeepFreak]

They actually used two different tranny's for the two motors...The 45RFE was used with the 4.7 and the 45RE was used 5.9. I couldn't tell you what the difference is in the bolt patterns between the two but the 45RFE actually has five gears...3.00, 1.67 upshift, 1.50 kickdown, 1.00, 0.75. Some of the later tranny's also need engine computer input to function as well so this may be a whole new basket of eggs! I am going to copy the email to 4 wheeler as well.

I just went to e-mail 4-Wheel & Off-Road and just saw that they own JP Magazine.


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JeepFreak

[This message has been edited by JeepFreak (edited May 03, 2001).]

[francis higgins]

The 42rh is the same as the 42re except hydraulic instead of electronic. It would be an easier swap than the "re".

It would be cool to keep the stock 360, and it should be easy to get it well over the 300 hp mark very reliably with the aftermarket components available.

[JohnnyJ]

A couple of notes from along the way..

1) The DC 4.7 V8 was designed by the Jeep/Truck group of Chrysler, it's not a Mercedes engine.

2) The RFE transmissions would require the PCM (powertrain control module, controls engine & trans)

3) 4.7 & 5.9 were never available in the same year, so it is not necessarily true that they would have interchangable bolt patterns

4) Most of the O/D trannies have the OD controlled through the PCM

That's it, for now...

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John Jacobs - jeep_wag_75@yahoo.com
1975 Jeep Wagoneer "Charlie Brown"
2001 Jeep Wrangler
Royal Oak, Michigan
http://members.home.net/jacobsj/index.htm
FSJ FAQ: http://members.home.net/jacobsj/fsj_faq.htm

[JeepFreak]

UPDATE! JP Magazine just emailed me back. I have copied the email for you all to read.

Yep, the AW4 could work, that is if it would. From what I have been told the AW4 is a little picky about it's electricals and it's kind of an expensive transmission. A 700R4 is a better choice and you can adapt it with parts from Advance Adapters. Just so you know the AMC 258, 304, 360, 401, 4.2L and 4.0L all have the same bolt pattern.
Thanks,
John Cappa

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JeepFreak

[This message has been edited by JeepFreak (edited May 07, 2001).]

[WillyPete]

why not just swap in a NV4500/NV241 combo? of if you want to go really tricky, use a NV242AMG.

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"Sugar Magnolia" '86 Grand Wagoneer 235/75R15 Wrangler AT/Rs, np229 x-case, bone stock otherwise

[JEEPRZ]

OK, some of this may be repetative, but here goes anyway.

Yes the 258, 4.0, and 304-401s use the same bolt pattern. I have a stroked 4.0 in my CJ, which was a bolt-in replacment for the stock 258. The flywheels, trannys, and starters will interchange between them, with the excption of the balance, and the crank position sensor on the 4.0

The XJ's AW4 is a jap made tranny, with quite small internal parts. WHile they hold up pretty well in XJs, even with built motors, I would not trust one behind a V8 in a SJ. This is also a fully electronic tranny.

The 42re and rh are 904/998/999 based trannys with a OD unit on the back. There are many parts avail to beef these up for relativly low cost. I have seen 999s run behind built Chrysler and AMC V8s without problems, so this may be a possible swap candidate. They also have a 23 spline shaft, with the standard 6 bolt pattern making for a relativly easy swap for 208s,229s, or D300s. The electronics would be the biggest hangup here.

IIRC, the 4.7 has unique bellhousing pattern, and im pretty sure the TCM is integrated in the PCM...very complicated swap

IMO, even with the high cost of adapters, the 700r4 would prolly be the best trans to choose from. The electronics are simple, the gear ratos are nice, and there are tons of parts avail for them. IF you can find one with a t-case on the back, it will save you quite a bit on adapters, and give you a good excuse to get rid of that 229.

While its true it would take MANY years to pay off the cost of any OD trans swap in mileage, there are other benefits. My favorite being the lower axle gears you can run, while maintaing decent freeway RPM. While I have no plans to install OD in my GW, my CJ will be gettin a AW4, and some nice 5.43 gears will be soon to follow.

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Dave
83 GW
360/727/229
No longer a tow rig...now its buildup time
3"lift, 31s, 3.31s, edlebrock intake, cam, TBI, custom DIY exh, rebuilt trans, shift kit and factory aux cooler,modified 229 (no viscous coupling, *improved* vacuum system), lotsa squeaks, leaks, and rattles

[joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by francis higgins:
Hey guys. Any of you using an overdrive in your GW? It would sure make it nicer taking trips. I was considering using a (built) 42rh from a newer Cherokee with a 4.0. I've heard the bolt pattern is the same for the 360/258/4.0 engines. Can anybody give input on this? Thanks a bunch!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Francis, lotsa good advice below regarding the how's of an OD in a GW but unless you're planning an axle ratio swap OD is not desirable and prolly will get you worse MPG's in a stock GW.
GW's ran extremely high gears(low numerically), 2.72's and at best 3.31's with the tow pack. Add an OD and raise that 2.72 ratio another 25% or so to around 2.10 and you'll be running so far below the power band of the motor you'll need to keep the pedal floored in a head wind or up any grade.
The stock axle gears are already about as high as you can get and still be practical to drive. OD's are used in rigs with axle gears in the upper 3.xx or 4.xx range such as 3.74's/4.09's and lower(numerically higher) etc.

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Regards,
-joe
63 2-dr Wag, 73 J-4000, 82 CJ-8