Who needs reverse anyway? (727)

[Narnian]

My tranny died. I have almost completely lost reverse, and I am slowly losing 2nd and 3rd. I am guessing we set the throttle kickdown too loose, and the tranny had to work too hard on shifting.

My parts jeep has the same 727 in it. The previous owner told me it was in "great" condition before his motor died. However, the parts Jeep has been sitting in my backyard since last winter. Should I just try swapping the trannies so I can take my time rebuilding the currently trashed tranny, or should I expect the parts Jeep tranny to be a leaky mess and just rebuild it first?

Also, how hard exactly is it to swap the trannies? Do I need to get any special tools? What will make this job easier?

In case you hadn't figured it out, I've never messed around with a tranny (or a transfer case).

[SQUIRELL]

NARNAIN,
THE BEST SPECIAL TOOL YOU CAN USE IF YOU DONT HAVE ANY TRANSMISSION EXPERIANCE IS MONEY smile.gif
TRUST ME DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PARTS IN A TRANNY???ITS NOT WORTH THE TIME AND AGGRIVATION TO "LEARN THE HARD WAY".
UNLESS YOU WANT TO SPEND A WEEKS VACATION DOING THIS,
SEND OUT THE JOB.
I'VE TRIED IT ONCE,IT WASNT WORTH IT,ENDED UP SENDING TO A SHOP TO REDO IT.
2 THINGS I DONT MESS WITH ANYMORE TRANNYS AND BONDO!!!!! smile.gif

[Narnian]

Now tell me how you really feel! :D

Seriously, I want to at least try it. But even if I don't I would still like to know if I can just try swapping the tranny from the parts Jeep, or if it needs rebuilt first.

[andy d]

i would try a filter and atf change before giving up on the trans. what does the atf look like on the dip stick? when did you last change the trans filter?.

[J20fan]

I changed one out in an 80 wag quite a few years ago.It was pretty basic, tall jack stands. long socket extensions a good floor jack and patience. The floor jack is a bit unstable but I used a flat plate with a bolt the same size as the one on the jack swivel and some small wooden blocks to help stabilize the tranny. I left the t-case on and removed it later though in hindsight i think i would remove it first. The tranny I put in I pulled at a scrapyard, i checked the fluid it was very red and clean added a new input seal, filter and gasket and it worked great until the 360 died. Some of the more experienced on the board may have a better way to approach this.

[Narnian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by andy d:
i would try a filter and atf change before giving up on the trans. what does the atf look like on the dip stick? when did you last change the trans filter?.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The ATF looks good (or at least it did a week before it died). I never even thought about the filter. I don't even know where the filter is. I guess I'll look into that first. How would you test the filter and where is it found?

My mechanic told me to just try swapping the two trannies. He said to replace the fliud, the front seal and obviously the pan seal. I'd like to hear any comments on how to tackle this from board members who've tried it.

J20fan, assuming the filter is not the problem, I'll follow your advice. I'll pull the transfer case first, then the tranny. I think I remember seeing some sort of contraption at Autozone that you hooked up to the jack to hold the tranny steady. Anyone familiar with this or was it part of a dream I had last night?

[Millerluck]

The filter is right there when you drop the pan. It is held in place with a few screws.

Also there is an o-ring some where in there if my memory serves me right.

I hope this helps.

Later

Larry Miller

[Narnian]

Yes, that helps. That means I should go buy a filter and a pan gasket at the very least.

[andy d]

dont forget about 6qts atf. remember to replace the magnet

[Cecil14]

Ok, this will definently make swapping the tranny easier, but may or may not be worth your while: pull the whole drivetrain out, motor and all. First of all you need an engine hoist, or a pretty stout tree, or something that will hold all that weight, and there will be plenty of weight. It's a LOT easier to remove the tranny and put the new one on with everything sitting in the open nice and easy to get at. Actually swapping the tranny should be all that hard, just unbolt the old one and bolt the new one up, and make sure the splines on everything line up before you mash them together, not cool to damage splines...

Hope this helps a bit,
Anthony

[UnkleMunky]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by andy d:
dont forget about 6qts atf. remember to replace the magnet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just cleaned my magnet off on the 727 on the van(dodge)....was that good enough? Definitely get the fluid....can't forget that! smile.gif

As for the filter/gasket, it should come as a "set" from any parts shop. 727s are pretty common, so that shouldn't be a problem.....just make sure you get it for the Jeep...in case there are any differences.

I would also recommend checking "band" adjustments inside. Not as sure about the 727 offhand, but my A413(k-car) had one adjustment on the outside and one on the inside, and any basic repair manual should give you details on how to do those. Don't fret too much on doing the adjustments....I did before I did my first one, but now don't mind....just had to "do it once" to realize it wasn't impossible! smile.gif

Take care....

[Narnian]

Where is the magnet?

I WAS planning on using new ATF, but I actually forgot to pick some up!

I'm planning on dropping the tranny from the parts Jeep and "freshening" it up Saturday morning. If that's not overly challenging then I'll start working on my real jeep.

The parts store did not have a tool to attach to the end of the jack, so I must have dreamed it. I'll just have to build something with wood.

[Ralph]

Narnian, I got your email noting that I've been awfully quiet lately. I'm actually employed -- choke, cough, cough -- as the service manager at the repair/body shop where my Jeep has been in pieces since late July. Saturday morning a buddy of mine is coming from Toledo to load the Jeep on his rollback wrecker and take it to his body shop. Alas, I realized I was in over my head.

Anyway, changing the filter and fluid might be a bandaid kind of thing for your tranny. But you've got a lot of miles on the Jeep and have been running 33" tires, towing occasionally, etc. You're probably due for a rebuild.

If I recall correctly, you told me the tranny in the parts Jeep is different: Anybody know what standard equipment was for a 1980 Wag? I think it's a TH400 tranny and a Q-Trac transfer case.

If the tranny's the same, I guess it's time for me to get my butt down there and remove that engine from the parts Jeep, so you can get to the tranny. Check your equipment, and let me know.

On second thought, check your equipment and pretty much keep it to yourself!

I can't make it down there this weekend because of the activity going on with my own Jeep. But I don't have plans next weekend.

[Narnian]

I'm glad you're employed Ralph, I was getting worried about you!

The parts Jeep has the identical tranny and Tcase. That's why I bought it. Same year and model.

I intend to crawl under it tonight and at least look at what I need to get into. I may start working on it tonight, but more likely I'll drop the parts Jeep tranny tomorrow morning (Saturday) and just freshen it up (change the filter, find and clean the magnet, etc). Depending on how tough I find that task, I'll decide if I want to swap it myself into the Cherry, or drive it down to a shop and have them swap it in for me.

I don't intend to remove ANY motors.

[Dive 30]

I just dropped the T-case tranny from my jeep here last week.

a.)There is a ton of fluid and it likes to run everywhere. Follow the instructions for draining the fluid and then make sure you put the pan back on so you don't make too much of a mess.

b.)Please remove your tranny cooler lines at the tranny and at the radiator (if you have one) and get them out of the way making sure you plug them off at both ends as well as the lines coming out of the radiator. This will eliminate a big hang-up.

c.)Remember that the torque converter will still be full of fluid.

d.)disconnect all of the linakages at the tranny, you don't have to take them apart from the jeep side unless they are going to hang up. And it seems they hang up more on the tranny than on the engine side plus, if you take it to a shop to have it rebuilt, they will just take all of that stuff anyway.

e.)This stuff is heavy!! I used my jack with a board plus a come-along strapped around the t-case (I dropped everything as a unit, but put it together as separates) just to stabilize everything. Be sure to go slow and give yourself enough height to get everything out with your jack/work platform.

Haynes gives a pretty good view of the linkages and connections. Like I said, there are a lot of places for fluid to come pouring out of, so watch out and keep your oil pan handy. Oh, and remember to drain the t-case and (instead of pulling the bracket/plug and dumping fluid everywhere like I did) just unthread the speedo cable from the T-case.

My local tranny shop rebuilt my tranny for $250.00 parts and labor (I spen $160.00 for the TCI HD kit for my tranny, so a regular rebuild kit would be another $50.00 or so dollars). Rebuilt torque converter was $85.00. Remember that my stuff was for the TF 727 though, not the TH400.

Hope that helps.
Phil

[JOECOOL]

Tranny swaps are easy. Just be sure to use a tranny jack. I rent them for $10.00 a day. They make the swap way too easy and fast.

[bentpushrod]

Ralph, my '80 Wag has the 727 and the NP219. I think this was the first year for this combo.

[Narnian]

Thanks for the list Dive 30! - I'm following the Haynes. When you say linkages are you going by their list or is there more?

I spent about six hours working on this yesterday (Saturday) morning. I didn't get too far. This is what I did:

o Removed exhaust
o Removed starter
o Disconnected tranny lines from the Radiator
o Disconnected Front & Rear Drive shafts
o Realized I didn't have enough clearance for much of anything.
o Picked up a pair of ramps at K-mart
o Jacked the front end up and placed it on the ramps.
o Searched for the Low Range lever connection, so I could disconnect it like Haynes said - failed to locate it.
o Loosened up the bolts on the frame

I'm only 1/3 done. After realizing how much work this is and how sore my neck got I've decided that once I get it out I will let the mechanic put it in my Cherry. This is too much work when you don't have a lift.

Hopefully tomorrow night (Monday) I'll drain the fluid and maybe find the lever to disconnect. If the weather isn't too awful I'll disconnect the tranny lines from the tranny and the speedo from the T-case.

[SQUIRELL]

YOU KNOW "I HATE TO SAY I TOLD YOU SO"lol. :rolleyes:

[Narnian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SQUIRELL:
YOU KNOW "I HATE TO SAY I TOLD YOU SO"lol. :rolleyes:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OUCH!

:D

It wouldn't be bad if I had a lift, but since I don't, you were right, I was wrong.

Still, it's worth the $325 I'm saving. It would have cost $175 to have someone yank it from the parts Jeep, $75 to tow it there, and $75 to tow it back.

[Ralph]

You, um, I mean, YOU!-- actually removed the tranny all by your lonesome self? You must be getting more confident with age.

Great job getting that exhaust out of my -- I mean -- your way.

Hugs & kisses for you.

Metaphorically speaking. Ahem....

[Narnian]

Well, I got a little closer anyway.

Drained the pan and stuck it back on today, then disconnected what I assumed to be the linkage.

I'll disconnect a few more things this Friday eve.

[andy d]

ok Narnian, this is a parts jeep right? some body advised to pull the eng/trans/xfer as a unit. i did this with my 84 parts jeep this summer. i used a 2high pipestaging on wheels and a 1 ton come along as a hoist. it was a rube goldberg looking thing that worked pretty well.i cut the panel that the rad mounts in in order to to keep the lift as low as possible. but even so i had the drive line nearly 5' in the air by the time it came free. i did it single handed in a sat. pm after about as much prep as you have already done.