closed knuckle D44

[AOE]

my front axle is a closed knuckle Dana 44.
I want to know what the downsides are to these type of axles compared to the open knuckle versions on later models.

[joe]

Larger turning radius.

[scotty]

biggest disadvantages,IMO,aside from increased turning radius are ot neccessarily from being closed knuckle,but from the fact that the close knuckle axles are usually drum braked and course spline shafts.that and you cant see the u jonits without taking it apart to tell if theyre bad or not.

my d70 is closed knuckle,but its got 35 spline inner shafts,and ive allready figured out how to add discs to it smile.gif my turning radius sucks anyway smile.gif so using the closed knuckle 70 is worth the effort of disc coversion to me for obvious strength reasons.most people dont really want old close knuckle axles,so you can find 35 spline 70s for fairly cheap. id pay at least 4 times what i got in my 70 for an open knuckle 60,which is another reason its worth the effort to modify.more strength for les $$$ and some extra work

one big plus is that since the u joint was spinning around in grease all its life,it came out easier than any other axle joint ive ever replaced :D

i guess if you can handle the course spline shafts and drum brakes,then the closed knuckle 44 is prolly fine. you could maybe swap in a newer fine spline carrier and axleshafts(not sure if that would work,due to shaft lengths,youd need to check that) and convert the front to discs. given the plentiful abundance smile.gif of newer,fine spine,open knuckle,disc brake axles,im not sure the 44 is worth the work.

hope this helps.

[ July 16, 2002, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[PAJEEPER]

If you keep it sealed and lubricated properly I think it will be fine. Replace the knuckle seals if you havent already and pull it all apart clean it and repack or replace the bearings. I d say its tough enough. though for me at least, most guys build their rigs to climb the Grand Canyon :D and say there total junk but I dont think the closed knuckle axles are that bad.

[jode]

I don't climb the grand canyon or anything, but if I've said it once I've said a hunderd times...the larger turning radius caused by the closed knuckles is the MAJOR downside and makes them (IMHO) not a very good option for a trail rig. tight trails require tight turns....closed knuckles don't do it...

[Josh D]

I just knew jode would be all over this one tongue.gif :D . If your building a trail rig with big tires, low gears, and a front locker, swap in an open knuckle axle. For just about anything else the closed knuckle is plenty strong.

Oh, and jode, its that ability for the open knuckle to turn so sharp that causes those 297X u-joints to snap like pretzels! :eek:

[jode]

Originally posted by Josh D:
its that ability for the open knuckle to turn so sharp that causes those 297X u-joints to snap like pretzels! :eek: Ha ha...I wouldn't want to disappoint!

Note that I said NOTHING about strength issues...

However, by your same logic, a 360 is better than a 401 and a 3 cylinder Geo Metro engine is better than the 360! A 3 banger aint gonna break any u-joints!

There has to be a weak spot somewhere!

[Josh D]

Eureka!! Thats why I love my 4 banger Wrangler sooo much! Its hard to break parts!! BTW, it has a D30 reverse cut, OPEN KNUCKLE, w/4.56 gears, a locker and 297X u-joints. It turns on a dime and has never broke (I'm knocking on wood right now) no matter how hard I've tried!

Oh, and jode, thanks for not dissapointing! :D

[scotty]

hey,fellas,my 6 cyl has broken 1 front u joint(after welding front diff ;) ) and broken rear spiders twice,and smushed the axletube on the rear housing. i think hes doing a pretty good job breakig parts smile.gif ive got a manual tranny,tho,wich is alot harder on parts,and also a fairly decnt crawl ratio. kinda like giveing a 10 year old child a 12 foot breaker bar to remove a 3/8" bolt smile.gif hes got plenty of leverage to break it if it wont turn...

when you add big tires that may rub on frames or leaf springs,you may actually not gain anything from swappig an open knuckle frot end. id defiantely be more annoyed with front drum brakes and course splie axlesahfts than the closed knuckle part.when i ran 32x11.5s on my stock aluminum wheels,they rubbed the leaf springs real bad(with NT axle) so it wouldnt really have mattered if that 44 was open or close knuckled. i had to get bolts for my steering stops that were a full 1/2" longer than stock.

does the close kuckle 44 use 297 joints? for some reason i thot they took the 260x...

[Josh D]

The closed knuckle uses 260X. On any of the closed knuckle front axles that Jeep used to include the 25, 27, and 44, I would recommend no more than a good limited slip (no lockers or welded spider gears), or tires larger than 33" if your doing some serious wheeling.

[scotty]

i agree with josh. with 260 joints,and course spline shfts,the 44 is not mush of a strength upgrade over a 27. only thing really you got is alittle bigger ring gear.a newer fine spline 44 with 297x wheel joints,and disc brakes would be a good upgrade smile.gif

[jode]

Originally posted by Josh D:
Eureka!!
Yeah but sometimes it is fun to roast tires, muscle up obstacles and be a redneck! ;)

[Josh D]

the 44 is not mush of a strength upgrade over a 27 The housing is much stronger than the 27, and the inner axle shafts are larger in diameter. The outers are the same though :(

Yeah but sometimes it is fun to roast tires, muscle up obstacles and be a redneck! Yeah, I know. Just trying to justify having a four banger :rolleyes:

[jode]

Originally posted by Josh D:
I know. Just trying to justify having a four banger :rolleyes: OK
LOL
:D

[scotty]

Originally posted by Josh D:
[QB][QUOTE] the 44 is not mush of a strength upgrade over a 27 The housing is much stronger than the 27, and the inner axle shafts are larger in diameter. The outers are the same though :(

true,but both have got a 260x u joint,so neither can be any stronger than that. good point on the housing,but its still a very worthwhile ugrade to get a newer fine spline,disc brake 44,IMO smile.gif

[Josh D]

Scotty,

I guess I should have been clearer on my explanation. There are two general ways to measure an axle's strength. One is load capacity and the other is torque capacity. The kingpin's of the closed knuckle are stronger than the the ball joints of the open, but the spindle studs of the open are stronger than the spindle bolts of the closed, so between the two, housing strength is a wash. Maybe a slight advantage to open knuckle due to less bolts that can come loose. The closed knuckle also doesn't turn as sharp, therefore putting less 'side' stress on the u-joint than the open knuckle will, and thats when they usually break. Also lets not forget the the open knuckle 44 uses smallish 27 spline outers, same as a D30. Biggest advantages of open knuckle are the tighter turning radius (which then justifies the bigger u-joint) and disc brakes. But all in all, your right, the open knuckle 44 is a 'better' axle, but just about equal in load capacity and slightly stronger in torque capacity, IMHO :D

[Jerk]

ok, so what about the heavy duty open knuckle d44s they put in the 1977 to 86 j20s, I'd allways heard they were almost as strong or even comparable to the older closed knuckled dana 60s of the 1960s. :confused: Didn't AMC kindof use progressively stronger axles over the years, since progressivly stronger axles were being built?

[ July 19, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Matt W ]

[Bob Barry]

As I understand it, the axleshafts on the HD44 are the same diameter as the axles on a front D60; everything else is beefier.

[AOE]

:cool: Cool wasnt expecting this much info.

I havent had any problems with my Closed knuckle D44. maybe 'cuase i only run 30's
But that axle has got me out of some sticky situations. I even outpaced A f-350 diesal extended cab with my 30 Year old P.O.S. as my friends so lovingly describe it. :D

[scotty]

bob,matt w,
the hd d44 uses same size shafts as all newer 44s,30 spline,1.31" inner shafts.most all d60s(cept for dodge disconnect 60s,wich do use same size) use a massive 35 spline1.5" inner shaft and a 30 apline stub.

outer stubs,on 44s(least all the ones i have ;) ) are 19 spline.

some people think that the hd housings are alittle beefier,but alas, they are the same. pretty much the only thing that makes the 8 lug d44 different is the larger 8 lug hub/rotor. they both do use the same size caliper,and some 6 lug 44s use the same larger bearings.

there may be some truth to a newer 30 spline 44 being close in strength to a older close knuckle 60. the housing on most close knuckle 60s ive looked at is noticeably thinner than newer open knuckle 60s. also those older 60s may use 1.31" course spline shafts,defianetly giving the newer 44 an advantage in axleshaft strength. the 60 does use a bigger pinion,and larger ring gear,but the chain is only as strong as the weekest link,so the advantage of an older course spline 60 over a 44 with fine spline shafts is certainly debatable...

axles certainly have gotten stronger over the years. the d30 is a good example-the newer style,reverse cut d30 does have a strength advantage over the older cj version standard rotation d30s,specially if you add the 297x wheel joint.the rev cut gears are stronger in a front axle application.olny real prollem withthe rev cut 30 is the lack of locking hubs. sure you can add the kit,but then the spindle is only held to the knuckle with 3 bolts :eek:

the previous comments are,of course,comparing stock axles. its defiantely not fair to compare a 44 with warn high strength shafts to an old close kuckle 60 with stock shafts,or a rev cut 30 with high strength shafts to a stock 44.

debating wither its better to upgrade a stock axle or swap in a bigger replacement(like a 44 for a 60) is beyond the scope of this post smile.gif

josh D isnt that pretty much what i said? smile.gif tongue.gif the disadvantage is not of the closed knuckle 44 being closed knuckle,but because it is course spline shafts,smaller wheel joints,and drum brakes. i was speaking in terms of torque capacity when i made the comment bout the close knuckle 44 not being much of an upgrade over a close kuckle 27 or 30. the housing may be less likely to bend,but the 260x wheel joint is gonna break at the same time in both axles.true,you may break an inner first in a 27,but at least in that situation the broken joint isnt gonna wreak havoc spinning aroud inside the knuckle...

you really think the kingpin design design is stronger? i hadnt given it much thot. if so that mkaes me pretty happy. :cool: ill add "kingpins are stronger" to my list of "good points" about using my clsed knuckle 70 :D

[ July 20, 2002, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]