MSD Ignition Kit = Rough Engine

[Red's FSJ]

I installed an MSD Ignition Kit on my 88 Grand Wagoneer and now I get rough acceleration and to some degree rough idling. It does seem that it is burning too much fuel because of the amount of very stinky exhaust and smoke that I see. I end up smelling like exhaust for hours after I have been plying with the truck. While it seems that I'm get the timing just right, every time I accelerate, the engines becomes rough. In gear, it is sluggish during its roughness. The kit consisted of an off-road ignition module, coil, distributor and wires. The plugs in my truck are Bosch Platinum 4+. I don't understand why it is rough and I know that my explanation isn't a very good one, but maybe some of you might be able to tell me what to look for or even tell me how to further troubleshoot to find the problem. Please feel free to respond as if you were talking to an idiot, as I don't know much about mechanincs. Thanks again!
Red

[kong]

What'd you do to the dizzy?

[joe]

I'm just guessing here but don't you have to open the plug gap after the MSD install?

[Red's FSJ]

All I did to the dizzy was replace it with the new one. Making sure that it was in the same position as the old one, in other words that it was still pointing to the same cylinder wire as it was before. I read nothing about increasing the gap on the plugs...

[joe]

You did re-time it after the dizzy instll right?

[Red's FSJ]

Well, I have been trying to re-time it ever since I finished the install. I haven't been using the gun, but playing it by ear. Is this not correctly done? Thanks!

[reddog]

Make sure you got your plug wires in the correct sequence.

Kerry

[joe]

On a new ign/dizzy install I'd re-time it by the book specs with a gun. That should get it running smoothly at least. After that go ahead and play with the timing to get it optimum.

[Dive 30]

Definetly check your plug wire sequence, I made that mistake when I switched to my MSD and didn't catch it for a while, made me feel pretty silly when I swapped two wires and a shudder I had been chasing for three months went away. Also, MSD recommends .050 to .060 plug gapping as a start since the ignitions multiple sparks and higher voltage can really get some good burn. Your +4s are not gappable, Edelbrock recommends Champion, that's what I have gone with and have been really pleased with their performance. Timing by ear might be pretty effective, but if you don't find a simple problem (such as the plugs or a crossed wire, you will need a light to measure not only your base timing (I had to back mine off to the older 8 deg BTDC, vs. the newer 12 deg.) as well as to look at the timing curve (it is adjustable with your pro-billet dizzy, though I haven't messed with mine yet). I would also do the general check for vacuum leaks, fuel filter, etc.

Phil

[Hammerx]

Was the "Kit" new? sounds like the Ignition module/coil/wires is breaking down under load.

Or the distributor/wires are in the wrong order.
it may be simpler to trouble shoot by going back to square one.

1. Find tdc on the #1 piston.
2. Check the distributor/rotor are pointing at the #1 plug.
3. Remove all the wires, reinstall in the correct order.

MSD has a great web site, you can also call them (915-857-5200) and speak directly to a tech.

I am running the same ingition system, right down to the Bosch Platinum 4+. Made a HUGE differance in my 122k 360.

Just my o2, good luck!

[SJ Edge]

I'm running much the same system: 6A with Pro Billet Dizzy, MSD wires and coil, and Bosch Platinums at .044.

Mine seems to be running rich. I always smell gas, and the performance doesn't seem quite right. Could the gap need increasing as suggested above? Would that potentially burn the fuel more completely? Or, is this a carb adjustment issue?

[Red's FSJ]

Thanks for all the replys. Things make more sense with all this feedback. I will check all the wires, but I'm pretty sure that I had everything in the right place. If I were to start from square one, and find TDC on the #1 plug, is there an easier way to turn the engine than dismantling all the belts and stuff? (There probably is, I just don't know all that much about engines.) THanks again for all your replys!
Red

[Hammerx]

Increasing the spark plug gap will only "enhance" and allow you to take full advantage of the performance ingition system. At worst with the stock gap you still have the advantage of a "hotter" spark. MSD recomends a gap of 0.050 - 0.060 on engine's with compression ratios up to 10.5:1.

Open the plugs in 0.005" increments to experiment with whats works best for your engine.

Red,
If you havent already, insure that the wires are routed away from sharp edges and heat sources.
Make sure that the wires are not crossed/wraped around one another causing detonation in the wrong cylinder.

[Red's FSJ]

Well...uhm...yeah...I had wire #2 and #7 mixed up! In the end I'm glad it was something that simple... I learned a lot of stuff from you guys anyway. Thanks once again, I wouldn't have figured it out without you guys. I'm really impressed with how well it runs. It''s like the 360 woke up from a 14 year nap. What a difference. Next: dual exhaust baby!!!

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't I (or shouldn't I) be able to open up the gap on my Bosch Platinum 4+ plugs? Thanks for your help.
Red

[Desert Beast]

Originally posted by Red's FSJ:

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't I (or shouldn't I) be able to open up the gap on my Bosch Platinum 4+ plugs? Thanks for your help.
Redi dont believe you can gap the the +4's due to their design http://www.forparts.com/boslgplat4.jpg

[ December 10, 2002, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Desert Beast ]

[reddog]

Originally posted by SJ Edge:
I'm running much the same system: 6A with Pro Billet Dizzy, MSD wires and coil, and Bosch Platinums at .044.

Mine seems to be running rich. I always smell gas, and the performance doesn't seem quite right. Could the gap need increasing as suggested above? Would that potentially burn the fuel more completely? Or, is this a carb adjustment issue?First thing I would check is the power valve if your running the stock 2150 carb. There is a vacuum hose that goes to the bottom front center of the carb bowl. That hose sends the vacuum signal to the power valve. Pull the hose off the carb and if there is ANY liquid fuel that drains out the power valve is blown. You can replace just the power valve but as you need to pull the carb to do it if you think it is time for a rebuild the power valve is in the rebuild kit - just do the whole shootin' match.

Kerry

[SJ Edge]

I should add that the carb was rebuilt by the PO 1000 miles ago in order to get it to pass smog. Could a power valve fail that fast?

[Red's FSJ]

Just one other thing for those of you who have installd the MSD ignition module. The white cable (ground supposedly, aside from the balck and red taht go to the battery), wouldn't let me start up the truck unless I left the key in the start position continuously. So I disconnected it and I was able to power up my truck, noly I can't shut it off now...What should I do? Thanks again. And good luck SJ Edge, wish I could have some input for you... The only thing I can say is that my Wag is not running rich anymore and it has the Platinums for plugs. Your symptoms seem to be exactly what I was experiencing before I realized that I had the plugs mixed up.
Red

[Peter Matusov]

Red,

toss the bosh platinum plugs. if your engine has a slightest tendency to burn oil, these plugs with their tiny central electrode will foul up on a weekly basis.

peter

[Dive 30]

Red,

You should have the light gauge red wire attached to an ignition + source (such as the old coil +) the light white wire should be capped off. I think that is the source of yuor problem.

As for the Bosch Platinum +4s, they come pre-gapped from the factory, and while they provide more of an area for the spark to jump to, there hasn't been any hard independent proof that they are any more reliable or provide a more complete burn than a normal plug.

Here's a quote from the dsestructions about grounding the white wire:

AUTOTRONIC CONTROLS CORPORATION • 1490 HENRY BRENNAN DR., EL PASO, TEXAS 79936 • (915) 857-5200 • FAX (915) 857-3344
THEFT DETERRENT
The MSD provides the opportunity to easily install a theft deterrent kill switch (Figure 4).
White Wire Trigger
When using the WHITE wire to trigger the MSD, install a switch across the magnetic pickup
VIOLET wire to ground. When the VIOLET wire is grounded, the vehicle will crank but not
start.
Magnetic Pickup Trigger
When using the mag pickup to trigger the MSD, install a switch to the WHITE wire and the
other side to ground. When the WHITE wire is grounded, the vehicle will crank but will not
start.
Figure 4 Connecting a Theft Deterrent Switch Through the MSD Ignition

Phil

[ December 09, 2002, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Dive 30 ]

[Hammerx]

Red,
Ingition "engine run on" is common in the Grand Wag.

Feed back from the alternator is feeding the small red wire just enough to keep it energized when the switch is in the off position.

Leave the small white wire diconected,It is not used in your application.

1.install a Ballast resistor. It has 4 pins. Two top and Two bottom. The two top pins are connected by a small "jumper" wire.
One pin on the bottom is connected to ground.
The remaining pin is connected in line, between the small red wire (MSD) and the 12v source.

2.You may be able to connect the "brown" wire from your alternator in line between the small red (MSD) and the 12v source with the same effect as a ballast resistor.

Option #2 has worked on my 1989 without a hitch for a couple of months.

Hope this helps. When it all works smile.gif it will have been worth the trouble.

I say that alot when working on my Jeeps!

[reddog]

Originally posted by SJ Edge:
I should add that the carb was rebuilt by the PO 1000 miles ago in order to get it to pass smog. Could a power valve fail that fast?While it is possible that the power valve failed it may be that the carb was not adjusted correctly. Check the vacuum hose to the power valve for fuel. Any fuel at all there power valve is bad. If that is ok ensure the choke opens all the way when warmed up. It does? Then check the float level. If it is too high that may be causing the rich condition. Need a most excellent write up on the 2150 carb? Go here...

Mike's 2150 write up (http://www.ifsja.org/tech/fuel/2150.shtml)

Kerry

[ December 10, 2002, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: reddog ]

[Mike D]

Originally posted by Dive 30:
Red,

You should have the light gauge red wire attached to an ignition + source (such as the old coil +) the light white wire should be capped off. I think that is the source of yuor problem.

As for the Bosch Platinum +4s, they come pre-gapped from the factory, and while they provide more of an area for the spark to jump to, there hasn't been any hard independent proof that they are any more reliable or provide a more complete burn than a normal plug.

Here's a quote from the dsestructions about grounding the white wire:

AUTOTRONIC CONTROLS CORPORATION • 1490 HENRY BRENNAN DR., EL PASO, TEXAS 79936 • (915) 857-5200 • FAX (915) 857-3344
THEFT DETERRENT
The MSD provides the opportunity to easily install a theft deterrent kill switch (Figure 4).
White Wire Trigger
When using the WHITE wire to trigger the MSD, install a switch across the magnetic pickup
VIOLET wire to ground. When the VIOLET wire is grounded, the vehicle will crank but not
start.
Magnetic Pickup Trigger
When using the mag pickup to trigger the MSD, install a switch to the WHITE wire and the
other side to ground. When the WHITE wire is grounded, the vehicle will crank but will not
start.
Figure 4 Connecting a Theft Deterrent Switch Through the MSD Ignition

PhilAnd if this is what you have.... and still wont shut down....try using a light from the light red wire(first in the above mentioned list) to ground..... , its a load for the ignition, some times MSD will still think its hot when you want it off,.... the light helps to ground the ignition wire (like one of the dash kind of lights..low power)

---- hence shutting down your motor...

AND that is exactly what i did for my 64 wagoneer.....dont really know why it did.....just some thing to do with the external resistor i think.

[Mike D]

opss....yea hammerx...didnt get down that far... silly me.

[J10/J20 Project]

RedsFJS,
Are the wires made by Taylor? My buddy has the MSD setup. I was telling him I was thinking of getting this setup. He was telling me that they recomend taylor wires. It made a world of difference on everything. He is very happy now.

[jeepguzzi]

Originally posted by Hammerx:


Red,
If you havent already, insure that the wires are routed away from sharp edges and heat sources.
Make sure that the wires are not crossed/wraped around one another causing detonation in the wrong cylinder.I know what you are saying, but , for the sake of clarification, I would like to add something. Do not run your wires side by side lengthwise. You need to have them cross each other (but not crossed , like going to the wrong cylinder). If you run them neatly next to each other, it will increase the chances of a crossfire or misfire.