No Spark!!!

[ColeTrickle]

Need some help here. I'm dead in the water. I got off work and came home, stopped to grab the newspaper and my truck just upt and died.

A few weeks ago I did the TFI upgrade. There has been no problem thus far. With the upgrade I went ahead and upgraded some factory parts to include a MSD Offroad Ign. Box and MSD TFI coil. To stray away from splicing wires I went ahead and got all of MSD's pigtail harnesses for a Ford distributor.

Well back to today...I tried to re-start it and got it to give me two good exhaust backfires out the tailpipe. Raw fuel...I'm assuming since I just drove 45 miles and everything was nice and warm. Also leads me to believe no spark. Pumped the accelerator and I could see fuel shooting.

Could this be my pick-up in the distributor? I have a factory TSM and there is no pick-up listed...what else are these called? What exactly does it do?

BTW....I would put the ignition switch into the list but the starter turns over just fine and shuts off.

I also put a screwdriver into the coil wire to see if I had any spark...none. Tried it at the #1 spark plug wire and then at the coil.

Whatdaya' think?
I would greatly appreciate any ideas.

[CowKiller]

mine is doing the same thing. i have replaced EVERYTHING with stuff i know worked or new. coil, dist, ingnition mod, strater siliniod, and even went over the entire wire loom. still wont start.
HELP! it is my only vehicle right now, and i sorta need it for tommarow.

[ January 20, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: cow catcher ]

[ffej]

Did you check the New MSD Ignition Box?? I've heard those can be touchy if you don't hook them up right..frying out and such..It's not unheard of for the coil to go if it's not hooked up right either..I'd hood the old ignition module up if you've kept the stock wiring and check to see if that works..buy a TFI coil from the Zone for 16$ and put that in too..if it's not that you can always return it...

[ffej]

Also..I'm not an electrical genius by any means..but I have noticed there is some questions on what that little resistor/capacitor thingy that was next to your stock coil is :confused: ..some say a rf noise limiter..some say a necessary part..I'd return to stock one piece at a time until she runs. It's most likely something silly and simple. :D

[joe]

I don't know anything about the TFI or MSD stuff but a fried fuseable link will cause the no-spark syndrom.

[ColeTrickle]

C.C., sorry your having the same troubles...I know what your going thru :mad: .

FFEJ, I'm no electrical genius either. I'm hoping I don't have to go thru that mess again. Thanks for the info.

Anybody that is remotely an electrical genius...answers? Please?

[ColeTrickle]

-Joe...wherebouts? Going from what to what?

[joe]

I think(?) it just runs between the starter solenoid and the ign switch. Should be the BIG wire at the solenoid going back into the harness bundle. I'd follow it back look for a burned area.

[ColeTrickle]

Thanks -Joe. I'll look into it.

[CowKiller]

mine isnt burn. i am going to try and rebuild the dizzy, change the pick up inside it. hope that helps. if not a jeep will be for sale, or in alot of dented up peices aka sledgehammer.

[FrankenJeep]

The fusible link runs from the battery side of the starter solenoid. Mine is a yellow wire, but I don't know if that's normal. I don't have the electrical diagram in front of me to tell you where the other end connects. I believe its rated for 15 amps, IIRC. They're pretty cheap, so much that I keep a spare in the tool box. Hope this helps.

p.s. do a site search for 'fusible link.' We've been over this topic a few times before.

p.p.s. I just had a similar situation on mine, it turned out to be the ignition module. $15 at Advance Auto.

[ January 20, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: FrankenJeep ]

[CowKiller]

i changed that. didnt help.

[PAJEEPER]

Originally posted by FrankenJeep:
The fusible link runs from the battery side of the starter solenoid. Mine is a yellow wire, but I don't know if that's normal. I don't have the electrical diagram in front of me to tell you where the other end connects. I believe its rated for 15 amps, IIRC. They're pretty cheap, so much that I keep a spare in the tool box. Hope this helps.

p.s. do a site search for 'fusible link.' We've been over this topic a few times before.

p.p.s. I just had a similar situation on mine, it turned out to be the ignition module. $15 at Advance Auto.Other end of it gets spliced into the big yellow wire that goes back to the firewall.

[ColeTrickle]

O.k. guys here's what I found so far. I have the 10 ga. yellow wire that runs from the battery side of the starter solenoid. Followed that for about a foot. Here it was connected to a wire that went down to the alternator (red). The yellow wire continued on towards firewall. I didn'y go any further. Reason being is the link that I mentioned earlier is metal...sorta of a metal splice.

Is this the fusible link? If not I guess I'm going further tonight.
Thanks for the advice so far...I'm going to continue my search in the archives.

[andy d]

i think so, is there continuity thru it?

[ColeTrickle]

Please bear with me. to show all what kind of electrician I am...all I gots is one of them there pen lights ;) .
I'll glady accept criticism! I'm not much when it comes to electricity.
O.k. got my pen light out. With key on. Checked power to ign. box...good. Checked power to dist...good. Power to coil...good.
Oh yeah, checked power thru that little 10 ga. wire runnin' back to firewall...good.

What else?

[ffej]

You have power and a good ground to your MSD Ignition module..yes

[ColeTrickle]

Yes I have power...still no spark :confused: .
I can't get an arch or anything.

[oddfire]

First go to MSDs website, somewhere on there is a procedure to check the box and see if its working, second thing I'd check is the pickup in the distributor.....phil

Checking The MSD Ignition For Spark
The following test will determine if your MSD is producing a spark.

White Wire Trigger:
If you are using the White wire (points or electronic amplifier) of the MSD to trigger the ignition, follow these steps.

1. Make sure the ignition switch is in the Off position.
2. Remove the coil wire from the distributor cap and position the terminal so it is approximately 1/2" from a good ground.
3. Disconnect the MSD White wire from the distributor points or the ignition amplifier.
4. Turn the ignition to the On position. DO NOT CRANK THE ENGINE.
5. Tap the White wire to ground several times. Each time the wire is pulled away from ground a spark should jump from the coil wire to ground. If spark is present, the ignition is working properly.

If there is no spark:

A. Inspect all of the wiring.
B. Substitute another coil and test again. If there is now spark, the coil is at fault.
C. If there is still no spark, check to make sure there is 12 volts on the small Red wire from the MSD when the key is in the On position. If 12 volts are not present, find another 12 volt source and repeat the test.
D. After inspecting the test procedures and inspecting all of the wiring, there is still no spark, the Ignition is at fault. See the Warranty and Service Page for Information.



Magnetic Pickup Trigger:
If you are using the 2-Pin Magnetic Pickup of the MSD to trigger the ignition, follow these steps.

1. Make sure the ignition switch is in the Off position.
2. Remove the coil wire from the distributor cap and position the terminal so it is approximately 1/2" from a good ground.
3. Disconnect the MSD Magnetic Pickup connector from the distributor.
4. Turn the ignition to the On position. DO NOT CRANK THE ENGINE.
5. With a small jumper wire, short the Green and Violet magnetic pickup wires together then pull the jumper off. Each time the short is removed a spark should jump If spark is present, the ignition is working properly.
If there is no spark:

A. Inspect all of the wiring.
B. Substitute another coil and test again. If there is now spark, the coil is at fault.
C. If there is still no spark, check to make sure there is 12 volts on the small Red wire from the MSD when the key is in the On position. If 12 volts are not present, find another 12 volt source and repeat the test.
D. After inspecting the test procedures and inspecting all of the wiring, there is still no spark, the Ignition is at fault. See the Warranty and Service Page for Information.

[ January 20, 2003, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: oddfire ]

[oddfire]

About MSD ignitions. They certainly seem to be top shelf material, look well constructed, are endorsed and used by a multitude of racers and average joe's. I just dont trust em. True, after I did my TFI upgrade using all MSD components, 6a box, connectors, TFI coil , wires. I did have a major gain in performance. Most notably easy starts, smoother idle and more off idle power, but the darn thing only lasted a few months. In my particular situation, the constant voltage wire that I had soldered and shrink tubed a ring connector to, {very sturdy connection} and had attached to a side terminal on my Optima, some how sawed its way about 75% through the terminal
leaving just enough slack in the connection to provide intermittant voltage and causing the box to fail. I didn't find it untill I removed all the components, cause the wire still felt tight by hand. I couldn't beleave how a tight connection such as that could do what it did to that terminal. Also two other buddies I wheel with have had problems with their units as well,
one after extended driving says the box just sputters like hes running out of gas. He put a bag of ice on it after it did this once and the problem stopped, leaving us to believe that the boxes don't like heat much,{although he had it mounted on the side wall by the solinoid} He sent it back to MSD who said that it didn't have a problem. He finally got so fed up that he just went back to stock and ran a MSD blaster can-style coil with no other problems. My Third buddies unit just upped and died. We never did find the cause. The moral of these ramblings, If you use an MSD box be sure to isolate it VERY well from any vibrations, install it vented in a path of fresh cool air, and solder and shrink tube all your connections and check them often. I really hope this helps some of you fellas cause it sucks to be stuck with an electrical problem when all the components are new.....phil

[ January 21, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: oddfire ]

[lindeleasley]

Cole, the easiest way to check the pick-up coil, in the distributor (and I think this is your problem), is to put your test light on the neg side of the ignition coil. As you turn the engine over, the light should flash. No flash, no pick-up coil. Cost ya about $15 at your local Auto Zone, or O'Reilly's.

[ColeTrickle]

Phil...yes it's funny how you hear all the negatives about a product after you buy it :rolleyes: . Guy I asked said "yeah I had one sent to MSD to have 'em look at it...They said nothing was wrong with it...sent it back...After he got it back hooked it in and the engine started right up.
Now you think they'll tell they screwed up...I wonder.
Lindel...I went out to do as you said. Now I tested the postive side last night to see if I was gettin' juice to the coil...and I was. But that was with the key in the on position. I just wanted to point that out.
O.k. hooked my trusty pen light to the positive side of the battery terminal and the pen into the negative side of the wire to coil (since it's a TFI I have no neg. pole on the coil...just a wire). While the engine was turning over. No light!
Think this is the pick-up in the distributor?

I guess it wouldn't hurt to buy one.

[CowKiller]

thats what i belive mine is too. two dizzys bad. i am gona take em to get tested tonight. it is nice having a guy who can do that.

[Don S]

Originally posted by leasley:
Cole, the easiest way to check the pick-up coil, in the distributor (and I think this is your problem), is to put your test light on the neg side of the ignition coil. As you turn the engine over, the light should flash. No flash, no pick-up coil. Cost ya about $15 at your local Auto Zone, or O'Reilly's...
Lindel... You left out that great electrical artical link out of your new SIG... Lucky for me I remember some of it.

Good Luck and CUL ;) … ds..
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1976 Wagoneer 406 MC4300 TH400 QT TruTrac 2" lift 31x10.50s duel Optimas
It’s taken us over 261 Colorado Mountain Passes since 1985-
link> 2003 OURAY FSJ Invasion Info and High Altitude Tips (http://groups.msn.com/ATexasOklahomaJeepClub/ouraycotopic.msnw)
link> Acronym and Abbreviations for 4X4 Gearheads (http://groups.msn.com/NISSAN4X4TRAILS/acronymlist.msnw)

[ January 21, 2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Don S ]

[CowKiller]

ok so if the ground isnt there it shouldnt start? so what if i just ground the coul to the battery. should it start?

[lindeleasley]

I did, didn't I? Not so sure I want to change it, after the last go-round! I'll see about adding it, and Cole, if the light didn't flash, you have a problem..

[CowKiller]

no help me too. lol

[ColeTrickle]

Lindel...I didn't get that pick-up for the distributor yet :( . I'll have to wait till Thurs.
What link is Don S. talking about? Could it be of any use for me?
And no the light didn't come on with the engine turning over. I appreciate the replies.

C.C....we'll get this thing worked out eventually ;) .

[arter]

Same boat. Changed out diz cap and rotor for brass terminals and it won't start. Put old cap and rotor in and still nothing. No spark at coil. Went through testing as per Haynes and checked out threads here with no success. Have battery voltage (12 volts) from (+)bat to (-)term of coil with key on, and drops to about 7 volts with key in start position. Is this normal, and where to go from here? I have it in the back bay of the firehouse right now and if I don't get it moving soon the guys will be practicing taking doors off with the rescue tools.

[oddfire]

Arter, did you check the magnetic pick-up in the distributor?............phil

[bigchief79]

Got the same problem in a 81 waggy. It should be getting batt voltage at + side of coil as it's cranking. I was only gettin 5.5v. Changed starter solinoid and got spark (for a few minuits) could be due to leaving the coil wire laying on the block! DOH! Haven't got a new solenoid to see if that was the 'real' problem or if I need to dig a little deeper.

[CowKiller]

i belive this should go into the arcives.

i have had both the dizzys i have tested. both are working in perfect oreder. so mine isnt the pickup. today i will do the flashing light test on the coil to see if my new ignition mod is working.

[CowKiller]

ok i am about to give up. how hard is it to switch to points? aint got the $ to buy msd and all that crap.

[arter]

CC-we can do this! I think?
Phil-checked pickup in diz as per Haynes by checking resistance across two of the three wires that connect to the plug from the ign module. Resistance in coil checks out OK. Tried three diff ign modules with no change (two came with the parts rig tho, so may be suspect), checked continuity in ignition switch and wiring, when I put test light from bat+ to coil- it blew the bulb out. VOM reads battery voltage when jumping bat+ to coil- with key on. When cranking the voltage drops down to 7 or so. Would like to know if this is right so I can track down or move on to something else. Keeping calm by reminding myself about all the edumacation I'm getting.

[oddfire]

dam I hate problems like these. When my MSD unit died on me, It was the last thing that I thought would have gone wrong. O well, you can always solve the ignition problem blues like I did, break out the mastercard and get a Performance Distributors D.U.I., Pricey, but worth every penny, One wire hookup, forget about the coil connections and ignition module, stoopid 7 volt resistors{ JEEZ I got a radio that runs offa more voltage than that} and all those other stupid things that have been makin you crazy, I've been running mine hard daily now for about 2 years without a single igniton related problem. And for those of you that think a D.U.I. is money wasted, let me assure you that these things have QUALITY writtin all over them, Arter, the only other thing that I can think of is to swap coils, and CC don't swap to points, go with a Pertronix point eleminator kit. I've had one of those in my CJ for years without problems, and I could never say that about the points that were in there before that, Had a mallory dual point that was a pos, went to a new delco and still had to futz with the points after or during every offroad excursion. The Pertronix hasn't failed me in about 5 years of abuse.........phil

[arter]

Phil-figured on getting a coil and ign module tomorrow on way home and try one then the other.
Ballpark price on the D.U.I?
Cole-sorry to jump your post but seems like we're all crying in the same beer.
CC-have an ignition switch from parts rig if yours doesn't test out, be up in Center Valley next Wed.

[oddfire]

it was like $350 coupla years ago

[ColeTrickle]

Originally posted by arter:
[QB]
Cole-sorry to jump your post but seems like we're all crying in the same beer.
QB]I don't mind at all..anything to make it get "TTT" or "BTT".

[CowKiller]

thats the problem. no job.

no jeep to get to job. no money to fix jeep. no money to get new car.

[lindeleasley]

Sorry I haven't responded sooner, been fighting the cold (even here in Texas), trying to get the wife's up and running again, finally took a Holley 2300 to get her going again. Some idiot ran the vent hose from the 2150 to the charcoal canister, but only after he took out the one-way vapor valve. Every thing was ok, and I never noticed, until the float developed a leak, and the vent turned into the overflow, into the charcoal canister!!

Very luck it wasn't a car-b-que. The bad thing is, I had to do that, to take it to the muffler shop for an exhaust leak that I can't fix:(

BTW, if you follow the link on my sig, you'll have access to the two Jeep articles I've written.

[ January 23, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: leasley ]