Is 38's gonna eat my Dana 44's ? [Archive] - International Full Size Jeep Association

scotty

04-28-2003, 05:15 PM

while i have broken my rear 44 several times with 38s,im still having pretty good luck with the front.

id agree youll prolly be fine with a fairly conservative driving style. once you upgrade the axles,u joints and stubshafts,the week link is the spider and side gears,then the pinion,wich prolly will break if youre a "make it or break it" kind of wheeler. i run stock shafts,and so far havent broken except u joints(wich usually take out the axle,stub or both when they go)

there is nothing wrong with runnin what ya got to see how it holds up,but IMO you want tio think long and hard before spending alot of $$ on hig strength shafts,etc. no matter mow much $$ you spend on a 44,it will never be a dana 60 ;)

one thing that helps immensely and is cheap is to grind out your stock axles and stubs for full circle clips. alot of joint failure is from losing th C clip and the cap walking out

FSJeeper

04-29-2003, 02:42 AM

Hey Seadog, I'm just down the road from you.

Speaking from experience, those innocent looking south Texas mudholes as well as the beaches can be hell on axles. Especially when you are hooked up at high rpms and get traction.

In my opinion, you will break the axles even with moderate street duty. Off road will be a certainty you will be wrenching more than wheeling. Your brakes will also not function well with 38's at highway or street speeds.

For Dana 44's that see moderate action, 33" tires should be the largest tire you use in my opinion.

Bob Barry

04-29-2003, 02:58 AM

Riverbeast bent his D44 running those size tires, and I don't think he was jumping the truck.

tuck

04-29-2003, 03:09 AM

Originally posted by FSJeeper:
Hey Seadog, I'm just down the road from you.

Speaking from experience, those innocent looking south Texas mudholes as well as the beaches can be hell on axles. Especially when you are hooked up at high rpms and get traction.

In my opinion, you will break the axles even with moderate street duty. Off road will be a certainty you will be wrenching more than wheeling. Your brakes will also not function well with 38's at highway or street speeds.

For Dana 44's that see moderate action, 33" tires should be the largest tire you use in my opinion.Dana 44's probably aren't the axle of choice with 38's, but I don't think you're going to bust axle parts when you pull out of the driveway either.

If Dana 30's can make it through competition rockcrawling use with 37" tires I think a Dana 44 can tolerate some moderate use on the street, and a little trail action. I like the philosophy of run what ya brung, and don't fix what ain't broke. But keep in mind, if you're going to drop $$ into 4.88 gears and lockers, you might consider beefing up to 3/4 ton or 1 ton axles at the same time.

dnixon

04-29-2003, 03:27 AM

Who runs 30's in rockcrawling comps?

There is no way a D30 would hold up to even a minute of that stuff even on a light weight rig. You pop on some 37's, a locker some gears and what you you got is http://www.dekonia.com/Images/ifsja/nuke.gif

You say you are just doing light duty stuff so I think you MIGHT be able to get away with it. But if you decide to upgrade to a locker all I see in your future is http://www.dekonia.com/Images/ifsja/nuke.gif .

I see guys around here running 44's and 40's, 38's... and they all have D44's up front BUT these trucks NEVER see the dirt, but they are able to cruise around with it though.

Thats just my opinion. You know what they saying about polishing a turd...

dnixon

04-29-2003, 03:50 AM

Oh here is a good video of what will happen to your D44... he wasn't going too hard either.. This is kind of a big movie but it shows up close the damage, then the guy does a damage report of all the stuff he has broken using his D44's... Happy Viewing!
D44 Shaft Breakage (http://www.industrialoffroad.com/Misc/ujointbreak.mov)

Rob Kosinski

04-29-2003, 04:04 AM

Jason Bunch from Tri County gear has been running a front 30 for a long time in project rock star.

River Beast

04-29-2003, 04:12 AM

Seadog,

I ran 39.5's and then 38's on my 44's with 4.89's and detroit lockers...

They did ok... for about a year.... Ouray did me in...and it wasnt EXTREME wheeling either.... I bent both 44's from stress of the big tires... The 4.89's are a hot running gear with only 9 teeth on the pinion and there is alot of stress there.... Actually when I took out the 44's the 4.89's in the rear had stress cracks on the pinion with a chunk missing on one tooth.

I suggest you save your money and upgrade to D60 up front and at least a D60 or 14FF in the rear and build those axles so you only do it once... I'm going at it for the 2nd time... so I recommend you do it right the first time....

I also noticed the splines on the 44 axle shafts were starting to twist.... another sign to tell you to upgrade now.

[ April 29, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: River Beast ]

Hump

04-29-2003, 04:31 AM

I say run'em till you break'em. What are you going to do with the little d44's if you upgrade? You might get a little money out of them, but it is probably more worth your while to run them till they break.

Axle swaps are easy, and if you break what you've got, then you have a better excuse to upgrade than just to be cautious.

River Beast

04-29-2003, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by Hump:
I say run'em till you break'em. What are you going to do with the little d44's if you upgrade? You might get a little money out of them, but it is probably more worth your while to run them till they break.

Axle swaps are easy, and if you break what you've got, then you have a better excuse to upgrade than just to be cautious.The amount of $$$ you put into your 44's to run 38's is not worth it... use that money to do the axle swap to D60's and be done with it....

I spent almost $2000 in parts and labor to install 4.89's and Detroit lockers in my 44's.....

My 14FF came with a Detroit and D60 is open but both have 4.56's and I paid less than what the D44 build up cost....

The front is a bolt in with steering issues only for SOA.. high steer is the easiest for less than $150 for the setup.

The rear needs the Perches relocated and shock mounts relocated and 1350 U-joint application to rear shaft....

I have less tied up in the axle swap than I paid for my 44 buildup....

you do the math....

Hump

04-29-2003, 05:06 AM

Slow down Todd. I was just stating my opinion. To do things right, I would totally agree with you. I try to take that approach myself, but for a street rig, or just to have a big truck, I wouldn't even mess with re-gearing. I see half ton trucks around here all the time with 38's and 40's on wussy axles that have never been opened up. High school kids and hillbillys mostly, but one thing that always amazes me was that they usually flog the crap out of their trucks, and don't ever break anything. (fields and mud patches and the like)

I think people focus on big, big, big to much. Personally, I would lift it, do your other planned mods, and just slap the big meats on there. If you toast the axles, or you can't live with it being a little sluggish, then do what you need. It's all about what you want to do seadog, you've gotten some great advice from guys like Scotty and Todd who have run the same thing you want to, you just need to decide what you can live with and how much money you want to spend.

Brown Bear

04-29-2003, 05:07 AM

I think what he was saying was to not put any money into em, and drive on em till they break, while saving up the pennies to do d60. Might as well have some fun with em, andsee wha happens when you break em smile.gif

blt2krl

04-29-2003, 05:31 AM

This may be alittle late here but what 38's are you planning to run. If your going to run a 38x 15.50 or 38.5x14.50 then hell no they won't last long on offroad excursions. If your going to run a 38x12.50 they will last reasonably well. I run 37x 12.50 SSR's and have only broke one front axle shaft because I was being really hard on it. I have wheeled in Moab on the same tire and have had zero breakages. What I'm getting to here is width is critical as it also added weight to the tire. The more weight you added the more prone to breakage you are on a Dana 44 axle. As far as gears go you need to decide where you want your rig to go and what your main use for it will be. If your going to cruse back roads, build what you have. If your going to go rockcrawling or mudding you had better save your hard earned cash and find one ton axles. This is just my .02 take it for what it is worth. :D

FSJ Thing

04-29-2003, 06:09 AM

I agree with HUMP. I only got 40 miles out of my stock axles before I wrapped the front around a rock buried in a snow drift, but I couldn't have sold it for a penny. Run what you got and while you're doing that, start building your replacement axles so you'll have 'em when you need 'em!

dnixon

04-29-2003, 06:51 AM

You can get a decent penny for a D44 from our rigs.. The little jeepers love those things...

derf

04-29-2003, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by seadog:
Oh yeah and 4.88 gears I think will get me pretty close to stock.Is that correct or not?You can do side by side comparisons on my gear ratio calculator (http://www.dfw-tx4wd.org).

River Beast

04-29-2003, 08:02 AM

Hump... I am not jumpin on you.... just letting him know NOT TO STICK MONEY IN THE 44's to run the 38's.... If he runs 38's with stock 44's.. let's say 3.54 gears at best.... the overall ratio change puts him at around a 2.71:1.... THAT BITES!!!! especially with 38 weighing in about about 100lbs each....

He can run them stock.... but he aint gonna do much wheeling with those gears... even in low.... lots a stress on the drivetrain as well..

orangecherokee

04-29-2003, 09:35 AM

this is just great guys, just when i'm getting to slap some 37 MTRs on my rig to go to Tellico i read this. all i have is 44s f&r and with 4.09 gears and a e-z locker in the rear. i can't wait to see what i destroy come memorial day!! i think this is why i've planned to trailor my rig in and out.

River Beast

04-29-2003, 09:59 AM

I'm glad I trailered mine to Ouray.. thats for sure!!!

River Beast

04-29-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by WagoThing:
...Run what you got and while you're doing that, start building your replacement axles so you'll have 'em when you need 'em!EXACTLY.. don't waste a dime buidling the 44's for 38's.... that's what I was trying to say... came out a bit wrong....

River Beast

04-29-2003, 10:02 AM

tuck

04-29-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by orangecherokee:
this is just great guys, just when i'm getting to slap some 37 MTRs on my rig to go to Tellico i read this. all i have is 44s f&r and with 4.09 gears and a e-z locker in the rear. i can't wait to see what i destroy come memorial day!! i think this is why i've planned to trailor my rig in and out.go easy on the gas pedal and you'll be fine.

tuck

04-29-2003, 10:11 AM

SLOwag, the above stated is correct. Jason Bunch wheels a Dana 30 front. It's a yellow YJ, I'm sure you've seen it, it's been in a lot of magazines etc.

orangecherokee

04-29-2003, 10:22 AM

i don't know if i can tuck. the problem is i've had a challenge laid before me by Mr. Andrew Dobosh and friends. if i can stand my rig up on staircase then i get an incentive from a special lady. what do you say now?

dnixon

04-29-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by tuck:
SLOwag, the above stated is correct. Jason Bunch wheels a Dana 30 front. It's a yellow YJ, I'm sure you've seen it, it's been in a lot of magazines etc.Okay I'll buy that he has one... but what is he running(gears, locker, hp) and how well is he running in the comps?

Originally posted by orangecherokee:
i don't know if i can tuck. the problem is i've had a challenge laid before me by Mr. Andrew Dobosh and friends. if i can stand my rig up on staircase then i get an incentive from a special lady. what do you say now?I say nurse it the first day or so then give it hell on the last day....

[ April 29, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: SLOwag ]

blt2krl

04-29-2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by orangecherokee:
i don't know if i can tuck. the problem is i've had a challenge laid before me by Mr. Andrew Dobosh and friends. if i can stand my rig up on staircase then i get an incentive from a special lady. what do you say now?For gods sake man there had better be pics. :D

Zac

04-29-2003, 01:07 PM

thanks alot tongue.gif

You guys got me doubting my setup now! :(

Is my amc 20 with 4.56 gears, welded axle tubes and a lock right locker gonna stand up to my 36x12.50 super swampers(keep in mind I am a teen so I have a lead foot!)
-Zac

GasWag

04-29-2003, 01:43 PM

What kinda lift you looking at getting. Would most likely have to be at least a 4-6" lift to fit them meats with some trimmin. Good luck to ya

seadog

04-29-2003, 02:28 PM

Thanks for all of your honest opinions.I will post some pics as soon as I am finished.If it weren't for this site I would have taken a lifetime to finish this project!! Jeeps are like leecches,they just suck the life out of ya but you have to have them to make the world go round.

orangecherokee

04-29-2003, 02:29 PM

pics will be taken for sure! either of me on my top or me on the top screaming at the top of my lungs for conquering the obstacle and getting my prize!!!

scotty

04-29-2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by River Beast:
He can run them stock.... but he aint gonna do much wheeling with those gears... even in low....hey now,i still only have 3.73s. :eek:

ive wheeled my rig with an auto and 3.31s,and with the t18 and 3.54s and now 3.73s.
low range with the auto was about 2.5x2x2.61x3.31=43.19 and i got around just fine.

low range currently is 6.39x2.46x3.73=58.63 and ive only raeally gotta be in first ifn im climbing a hill,or over something big. for most trail riding im in 2nd or 3rd gear while in low range.

in both cases i can drive it on the road,tho it sort of prefers to start out in granny 1st in high range,and i will not win many drag races ;)

in both situations i ran 38s and a 6 cyl.

when housings bend is when youll start having alot of trouble with breakage of other parts. if a straight housing is trussed to prevent this from happening,the next thing to consider is the sudden shockloads of wheels spining very fast and very suddnely finding traction. with the exception of 1 u joint,all my breakage fits into that scenario-my other front u joints,rear spiders,2 of my 3 transfer cases smile.gif the slow-breakage u joint was with a welded front diff,and the wheels cut all the way left and bound up climbing out of a rut. that one was also pre-full circle clips.

i break u joints in my front end now and then because i am pretty hard on my rig. you can certainly keep a FRONT 44 alive by driving like you got some sense, tongue.gif but i do share the opinion of everyone that has stated not to spend lots of $$ on custom shafts,etc. for a 44. it will always have a small ring and pinion,no matter what you do to improve the axleshafts,diffs,housing,etc.if i could find a cheap used ARB or OX,id buy it,but no way youll catch me spending $600+ on a diff for my front 44

i run stock shafts with full circle clips,and a used truetrac. its not bulletproof,but its about 1/2 the weight of the dana 70 ive got to replace it with whenever that time comes,and it holds up pretty well for the abuse i put it thru

[ April 29, 2003, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]

netbear

04-29-2003, 03:44 PM

Why bust up a good set of Dana 44 axles? Run 33,
maybe 35" tires and enjoy your Jeep. The 38's
are not worth it in my opinion. It will drive
better with the smaller tires also.

KYJ10

04-29-2003, 04:14 PM

Zac, I wouldnt worry too much. You didn't spend much on the axle, I did! LOL Anyway, for now your in good shape. Save up if you think your gonna do some hard wheelin. Im gonna run my 44 till it brakes. Hopefully it wont be at Tellico. Dennis

Stuka

04-30-2003, 01:45 AM

That loc-right will break before the axle shafts will IMHO. That one advantage to a baby locker.

[ April 30, 2003, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Stuka ]

U.P.'er J-20

04-30-2003, 04:50 AM

i have a 87' j-20 with 38" sx's welded rear d60 and the stock d44 with a lock right and stock 3.73's the truck rarely see's pavement and i do a lot of heavy muddin i have had the truck going on 3 summers and i am replacing the 7th shaft i'v broken up front actually if you want to get technical it would be the 14th shaft cause when those crappy 297x's let go they take out the inner and outer and i predict by next year i will have cleaned out every junkyard in the U.S. of these shafts. i thought when i first bought the truck that it would be able to handle it to. i wish i could find a d60 front for $500.00 hint hint.

04-30-2003, 05:31 AM

"i wish i could find a d60 front for $500.00 hint hint." I second that wish.

River Beast

04-30-2003, 05:52 AM

Dana 60's

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2413185346&category=33728

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2413547784&category=33728

tuck

04-30-2003, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by SLOwag:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tuck:
[qb]SLOwag, the above stated is correct. Jason Bunch wheels a Dana 30 front. It's a yellow YJ, I'm sure you've seen it, it's been in a lot of magazines etc.Okay I'll buy that he has one... but what is he running(gears, locker, hp) and how well is he running in the comps?

http://www.off-road.com/rock/arca2001/jvalley/photos/DSC_0092.jpg

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=43872738a5b82b51991215726918f93e&threadid=110897&highlight=jason+bunch

http://www.bajarocks.com/competitors/jasonbunch/

I'd say he wheels it a little bit. I'm still not advocating smaller axles, I want a 60 front, but the little stuff can still take a lickin' and keep on spinning if you build it right, and aren't really stupid with the gas pedal. $.02

[QUOTE]Originally posted by orangecherokee:
i don't know if i can tuck. the problem is i've had a challenge laid before me by Mr. Andrew Dobosh and friends. if i can stand my rig up on staircase then i get an incentive from a special lady. what do you say now?

in that case, do whatever it takes to get the job done... and if something breaks, fix it. :D

Peter Matusov

04-30-2003, 07:55 AM

Orangecherokee, the EZ locker ate my rear D44 axleshaft in a hurry, with only 33" tires. Since then, I've been abusing my axles with a TracLoc and 35" tires, and they are still okay.
He has better chances to keep the axle together with an open diff.

netbear

04-30-2003, 09:49 AM

The CTM joints that replace the 297x fix
one of the weak links in the front 44s.
Warn or Moser front axle shafts are another
upgrade. Since the front hub is fully
supported by bearings (full floating) there
is less load on the front axle shafts when
your are going straight ahead than in the rear
44 semi floaters. The Rear 44 semi floaters can
be upgraded with 33 spline axles and either
a Detroit locker or OX-locker. The rear 33
spline axles are apx 20% stronger than the
OEM 30 spline axles. Just an idea if you want
to keep the 44s. I believe Superior, Warn and
Moser make the rear 33 spline axles for Dana 44s.

Stuka

04-30-2003, 10:05 AM

A d30 front in a baby jeep isnt all that bad really. As the rig weighs a LOT less then a FSJ. With more weight, comes more stress. As more power is required to move, which of course means more power going through the axle shafts.

Same goes for the D44. D44's front and rear on a CJ/YJ/TJ are pretty darn good. They take that abuse pretty well. While under a FSJ, abuse with big tires will lead to breakage.

mulepic

04-30-2003, 03:49 PM

I went w/ a 14 bolt FF in the rear b/c it's cheap and who cares if you break an axle. It's a ff so pull it and go to any yard and buy another for $25.

For the front i went w/ a chevy 3/4 ton D44. Again it's cheap and you can buy axles for it all day long at any yard for $15. The 3/4 ton D44 is made from 1/2" material where as the wagoneer d44 is 5/16". Honestly though, my rough mechanical engineering equations haven't convienced me the 3/4ton is much more stronger. Time will tell. Oh yeah, you get bigger brakes also. I also tack welded the u-joint caps. And have a detroit in it.

I currently run 35's w/ 4.10 and I think the gearing feels really low on the freeway so I'm thinking about 37's.

For me it's the cost that matters. Finding a D60 isn't cheap nor is replacing parts on it.

my $.02
-Matt

scotty

04-30-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by netbear:
The CTM joints that replace the 297x fix
one of the weak links in the front 44s.
Warn or Moser front axle shafts are another
upgrade. Since the front hub is fully
supported by bearings (full floating) there
is less load on the front axle shafts when
your are going straight ahead than in the rear
44 semi floaters. The Rear 44 semi floaters can
be upgraded with 33 spline axles and either
a Detroit locker or OX-locker. The rear 33
spline axles are apx 20% stronger than the
OEM 30 spline axles. Just an idea if you want
to keep the 44s. I believe Superior, Warn and
Moser make the rear 33 spline axles for Dana 44s.and you are still gonna have a little bitty ring and pinion ;) if you are willing to spend that kind of $$ on an axle,spend it on an axle with a diff that will be able to take the abuse the sahfts and joints are able to

Originally posted by Peter Matusov:
Orangecherokee, the EZ locker ate my rear D44 axleshaft in a hurry, with only 33" tires. Since then, I've been abusing my axles with a TracLoc and 35" tires, and they are still okay.
He has better chances to keep the axle together with an open diff.maybe you are alittle less likely to break an axlesahft with an open diff or a traclock, but in its place you will break spider gears.especially with the trac lok. they are notorious for that.

you should be able to go the same places with a locker or spool with a whole lot less fuss and wheelspin than with an one diff or limited slip,so a locker could actually help axlesahfts live longer ;)

to recap if you want to run 1/2 ton axles and big tires:
-add a truss to keep the housing straight
-avoid sudden shockloads.watch the bouncing and wheel speed.if your speedo reads 65 mph in a mudhole,something is gonna give if one of the tires suddenly finds traction :eek:
-carry spare parts and the neccessary tools to fix
*no matter how much $$ you spend upgrading a 44,it will never be a d60.write "front dana 60" on a cookie jar and put the $$ youd spend on warn shafts and CTM joints into it ;)

further questions? smile.gif

[ April 30, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: scotty ]