New J4000 WT for me!!!!

[jode]

I went ahead and bought the 73 J 4000 over the weekend. After going back to look at it in the light, I was please to find that the body is about as close to perfect as can be expected...2 small dents is all it has and NO externally visible rust!!! The 360 and TH 400 are leaking sopmething fierce (possibly the T-case too, but who knows) and the interior is rough. Luckily there are a lot of donor wags around here and I figure to get new panels and a seat out of a newer wag for it. I do have a few questions though...

1) It has dual exhaust, but the pipes each come straight back from the mannifolds with no interconnection. Is that the right way to do it? Isn't there s'posed to be an "H" connection between the two sides to equalize exhaust pressure? How important is this?

2) It has the D60 rearend but my Jeep manual's VIN decoder doesn't seem to work for this model. How do I tell a fullfloating D60 from a semi? Also, someone mentinoed something about a decoder on this site...where is it?

3) Any body got a spare 360 or 401 they would like to sell me>

4) I know the suspension changed right after the 73s, but what would it take to fit a newer openknuckle, dicbraked 44 under my front end to replace my current closed knuckle, drum braked, not-turning POS? (s'posing I had a replacement from a newer wide trac chero or wag). What I'm wondering is if the width in between spring perches is the only thing that would need to be addressed or if there is something else.

5) It seems like both my TH 400s are leaking out of the hole where the shift linkeage goes into the case. Is there a cheap/easy fix for this like a replaced seal or something?

Thanks guys...I know....lots of questions, but I am all excited again about my new Jeep!

[Marvin Gates]

I think my 74 J10 had drum brakes on it and someone along the way changed to disc brakes because they didnt put power brakes on when they did the switch. I drove a closed knuckle and it does not turn for beans. I dont think it would be a big deal to change the whole front axle. Does it have power brakes on it now? If not you will need to get the power setup. CrazyJeepman has all the stuff you need, if you need it.
Hope you enjoy your new toy. MG :cool:

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Marvin Gates ]</p>

[joe]

1) Duals aren't factory, they came with single exhausts.
2)Easiest way to tell is by the hubs. If they're flush with the wheel it's either the D44 or D60-2 semi-floater. A full-floater will have the hubs protrude through the rims a few inches. The semi-floater will also have 5 hole(lug bolts) wheels. I think in 74 they hung the front springs under the frame where a 73's will be hung off the sides of the frame. Not all 74's have disc brakes either. It was optional on the trucks and Cheros in 74/75 and standard in late 76. I don't consider the closed knuckle/drum braked axles a POS at all. Your barkes are on a 30 year old rig. Prolly just time to do a brake job. Try servicing them and bring them up to spec first before condemning them. I rebuilt my 73's brakes and they worked excellent.

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

THE FIRST THING TO DO,IS FIX THE BRAKES...LIKE JOE SAID...THEN THE LEAKS,FOR GET THE H CRAP, "BUNCH OF BULL" AND THEN, HAVE FUN..YOU'LL BEEEEE THINKING ABOUT IT, 24-7..SLEEP-LESS NIGHTS AND LONG DAYS :D :D ..FUN,FUN,FUN, THIS STUFF IS ALL FUN!!!!! :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek:

[jode]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GEMOBX/77/401:
THEN THE LEAKS,FOR GET THE H CRAP, "BUNCH OF BULL" AND THEN, HAVE FUN..<hr></blockquote>

GEMOBX
What are you talking about?

BTW everone else, the drum brakes aren't what have me the most concerned about the front axle. It's mainly the super-poo turning radius caused by the closed knuckles...discs are an added bonus from adding a new front open-knuckle axle.

-joe I know dual exhaust isn't factory..that wasn't really my question. I'm curious about hte repercussions of the non-connected dual.

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: jode ]</p>

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

OK!!WHY DO YOU THINK...YOU NEED AN H PIPE???THE H PIPE IS A BUNCH OF "BULL" THAT'S MY ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION ON THE EXHAUST!!!.. .....JOE SAID 30 YEARS OLD DO A BARKE JOB....AND I SAID THAT I CONCUR!!!!... :confused: smile.gif

[Blackjack]

jode,
I know what you're saying about the turning radius., -joe likes the closed knucks. They're OK if you keep em serviced and you are not doing any serious 'wheelin. A swap to an open knuck disc brake axle should be fairly straight forward IF you can find one with the same width axle (from a truck not a Wag) with the same ratio. Crawl under the truck and look for the tag that's attached to the diff cover. See if you can read it, it'll have the ratio stamped on it. Hint: if you can't read it take it off and try to read it from the back.

[jode]

OOOOHHHHHHHHHH
Now I see!
Thanks
Why bull on the H pipe...?

[joe]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jode:
-joe I know dual exhaust isn't factory..that wasn't really my question. I'm curious about hte repercussions of the non-connected dual.<hr></blockquote>
If you mean running a x-over pipe between the the two exhuast pipes? Nah...don't worry about it. If you're in a full-race situation the x-over pipe does have a useful function of equalizing flow or back pressure or some such voo doo but for normal-non drag race ultra high RPM use the benifits are miniscule(sp?).
I've dualed off(no x-over pipe) both my trucks(and tons of other rigs) and got nothing but a power gain with no bad side effects.

[jode]

yeah -joe that is what I was talking about and that makes sense. That's good news, I guess I'll jsut leave her alone then.

two Checker cherry bomb mufflers...aaahh peace and quiet

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

I HAVE SEEN DINO TESTS ON STREET CARS...WITH AND WITH OUT THE CROSS OVER..OR H PIPE...NO DIFF. IT'S AN AGE OLD ARGUAMENT..I'M ON THE SIDE OF ..IT'S A WASTE OF TIME...IF I WERE YOU, I WOULD THINK ABOUT FIXING ALL THE FLUID LEAKS YOU HAVE!! smile.gif smile.gif ..MY 2 CENTS smile.gif

[jode]

GFD
Why not an axle from a wag? Seems to me like a Wag axle is the perfect choice. What's the logic there?

BTW I am fairly sure the axle ratio is 4.09 since that is what the PO told me and so does everyone on this site who looks at the VIN #

[WillyPete]

you can kinda think of each bank of cylinders as a seperate 4 banger...

why would you tie the exhaust from two engines together? ;)

axles: a waggy will have a different gearset (most likely 3.07 or 3.55 if it's from the 70s) and will be narrower than the WT J4000. check out cherokee WT or other Jtruck axles. maybe even chevy or dodge...

[joe]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jode:
GFD
Why not an axle from a wag? Seems to me like a Wag axle is the perfect choice. What's the logic there? <hr></blockquote>
Wag axles are about 8" narrower than the truck axles...doable I guess if ya don't mind the funny looks :D

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>QB]
BTW I am fairly sure the axle ratio is 4.09 since that is what the PO told me and so does everyone on this site who looks at the VIN #[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
It's 4.09...that's only avail gearing in a 73 truck with the 360/TH400/D60-2 combo otherwise 4.88's would have been an option with the T-18A manual trans.

[jode]

What about the axles outof a Wide trac cherokee? THat is what I was thinking of...not a NT.

OOPs, just saw WIllyPete's post. Yeah like I said...a WT Chero

But is there no such thing as a wagoneer with the WT? Come to think of it I have never seen one.

Gearing is an issue though...maybe a chev axle would do better.

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: jode ]</p>

[OBX-AUTOMOTIVE]

SORRY!!!......FRED FLINTSTONE HAD A DINO...I'M TALKING..DYNO :D :D

[jode]

anybody got a response to my original question # 5?

[Blackjack]

right on the axle width. No comment on #5, I know just about enough to get myseslf in troubl with slush boxes.
GFD

[Josh D]

Jode,

One thing that wasn't mentioned about swapping in a later WT open knuckle axle is the wheel bolt pattern. I believe they are six lug for 1/2 ton (all Cherokee's, J10) and 8 lug for 3/4 ton (J20's). There might be some 5 lug open knuckle in late 73 and in 74, but they would be hard to find. Just something to keep in mind as you would have to convert the six lug to five using Ford parts, or swap both the front and rears. I considered this on my J2000, but just decided to live with the closed knuckle to keep the 5 lug pattern, as I have a semi float D60 from an IHC Travelall (bigger tubes, bigger bearings than Jeeps D60-2) thats the proper width for my J-truck. If the rear main seal is leaking bad (this is very common), it will coat everything behind it (tranny, transfer case) in oil, possibly making it appear to be multiple leaks. Degrease and pressure wash the under carriage thoroughly before jumping to leak conclusions. By the way, congrats on the J4000!

Josh

[jode]

Thanks Josh
You're right about the lug patterns on axles. I have been led to understnad, however, that there are adapters to be had that can eliminate the problem. Anybody ever used on?

About the rear main seal...can tha be replaced by merely disconnecting the engine/tranny or is it rebuild time (s'posing that is the seal that is gone out)
THe reason I ask is that I think my 401 may be leaking in that same area

[joe]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jode:
Thanks Josh
About the rear main seal...can tha be replaced by merely disconnecting the engine/tranny or is it rebuild time (s'posing that is the seal that is gone out)
THe reason I ask is that I think my 401 may be leaking in that same area<hr></blockquote>

Jode...ya seem to missing something important here..."GO to the tech section on this site" Directions to it are somewhere above...twice ;) There is a lot of good info there.

You don't need to drop the trans to do the seal. "In the tech section" there's a write up on how to replace the rear main seal.

[jode]

WOW it's ALL in the tech section! :D ;)

[River Beast]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jode:
anybody got a response to my original question # 5?<hr></blockquote>


There is a small metal-encased seal in there.. you can buy a special threaded tool to pull it out for under $10 and worth every penny.... the seal is smaller than a dime!!!Prolly rent one for Autozone!

I remember doing this when I dropped the pan, and removed the linkage... peice of cake with the tool.. PITA without!

[joe]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jode:
WOW it's ALL in the tech section! :D ;) <hr></blockquote>

Now ya got it jode :D
Wasn't trying to hassle ya...just steer ya in the direction of a lot of good info. It's worth spending some time on the main web site especially the tech section. Have fun smile.gif

[Rande]

Ok, axle swap up front huh?
Later, disc brake, open knuckle axles had the front springs mounted under the frame and under the axle tubes. The springs were also about 2 1/2" wide, and IIRC are a bit longer than the older springs.
Early drum brake, closed knuckle axles had the front springs mounted to the side of the frame (between the frame and the tire) the springs were mounted above the axle tubes. They were about 1 3/4" wide.
The early wheel lug bolt pattern is 5 on 5 1/2 and the later is 6 on 5 1/2(?) and 8 on? was also used on the heavier rating J-4000s.
You have a J-4000, 3/4 ton. If you want the same weight rating, you will need the front axle from a J-20. That means 8 lug bolts. If you use one from a J-10 you could have the rear axle flanges on your rear axle drilled for the 6 lug pattern which would be somewhat stronger than the original 5 bolt pattern but you still lose the 3/4 ton rating.
I would suggest that you get both axles from a J-20. You will get the strength of the front Dana 44HD and matching ratios and wheels lug patterns.
Now watch the offset in your rear axle. If you have the semi-floating Dana60-2, it is offset to the passenger side by about 5". This was to clear the gas tank. If you get a J-20 rear axle, it may not have that offset in it. I can't tell right now as it is late and dark out and I'm not going to crawl under my truck right now. If you don't have the Dana60-2, you have 8 lug wheels and that is easy to see.
If you want to put a disc brake open knuckle front axle in your truck, you have the wheel bolt pattern to deal with, get the right year because in 1980 the front pumpkin went to the driver's side, you will need to switch to the wider springs and move them under the frame. If you don't, you get no increase in turning radius due to the front springs being between the frame and the tires. You will nned a new master cylinder to accomadate the increase in brake fluid volume the discs will need, you will need new flexible front brake hoses from the frame to the caliper because the caliper use a different fitting than the drum brake's wheel cylinder. The proportioning valve will need to be replaced.
Lotsa work here.
I suggest you find a J-20, crawl under it, spend some time looking that front end all over, then crawl under your truck and look it over real good. Take a tape measure, look at everything. Decide what your fabrication skills are, decide what you are willing to pay someone else to do, decide if it is worth it.
This definitly ain't no bolt-in.
But! If you do this AND swap both axles AND swap over to the newer springs, then you can use commercially available lift kits instead of having custom spring made for you.
Good luck with this one!

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Rande ]</p>

[jode]

Holy Shnykees Rande!
That was a beautiful sermon ;) :D

Theres a few things I hadn't considered in there. I guess they moved the springs inboard to make room for the increased turning of the new open knuckle axle huh?
I definately aint gonna replace the rearend. I figure I can just do the front and then maybe find either an adapter for the front wheel bolt pattern to use a Chero Dana44, or find an axle from a different model truck (CHev) that has the correct pumpkining, gear ratio, width, brakes, and bolt pattern :eek: Sounds like a tall order, but it could happen.

By the way, I was on brain freeze and could not figure out that dad-bern library stuff, I had seen it before, but I am in the habit of clicking right past the homepage now and there are no links to get back to it. I got it now though :D