413 back in one piece, with a problem!

[Snakeyes_Tx]

I spent all day finishing up putting the motor together. As some of you all know, I could not crank the motor over by hand on the crank bolt, nor could I get the leverage possible to turn teeth on the flywheel. I thought maybe the torque of the starter would be able to force the super tight motor over, but not even that worked. I don't have the strength to just muscle it over, so I'm thinking maybe I could use the weight of the rig to do the work for me. Follow me here.

If you were driving and you shut the motor off with the truck in gear with an automatic trans, the ignition would be cut off, but all the pistons would still be moving along with the crank right?

I'm thinking the massive surface area of all 8 pistons with all the rings and being somewhat dry from sitting and re-ringing would be to blame for the ultra tight condition. Keep in mind that when I fixed #8's destroyed piston, the motor cranked over by hand until I put the new piston in. I didn't fidget around with anything else otherwise.

So, I'm wondering, can I just put the truck in Reverse and have the momentum of the truck rolling down the driveway turn my motor loose so it'll start? If not, what about if somebody were to pull me a few dozen yards with it in Drive? If it's REALLY that tight, the worst that could happen I would imagine would be the wheels would lock up since the transmission and turning driveline parts would still not be able to wedge the crank loose? Any thoughts or ideas to get this pig moving again would be most appreciated! :confused:

[trssho]

The engine has to be running for the trans to engage. You need the trans pump turning to supply pressure to the bands and servos.

[jeepguzzi]

I am not saying this is the problem, but I once had a mustang that did this. What we had not done was make sure the torque converter had fully seated into the tranny.

Something is more wrong, I feel, than a tight rebuild. I think you are asking for more trouble by trying to get it to turn over by dragging it around. Also, I don't think it will work. Good luck!!

[FSJeeper]

Shawn, prime your oil system, take the plugs out and squirt a shot of lieghtwieght oil into the cylinders, and turn it over by hand or with the starter with the spark plugs out. This should get things moving. If your starter is good, and you try to turn it over with the spark plugs out and it will not turn over. You have a problem.

Do not try dragging it with with auto trans.

[Rogue]

if you cant turn it over by hand than something is WRONG i once barred over a v-12 detroit diesel engine(18:1 compression at that) talk about tough!!! the point is though it TURNED if you force this thing to turn than you is gonna have breakage problems - just a thought the 401 rods will only go one way they are kinda offset to one side is it possible you got it in backards?

[Snakeyes_Tx]

It's possible, but then that would be at the fault of the shop that pressed the piston on. The piston is actually labeled which side is the "front" towards the fan. It actually went down to the crank without a hitch, although getting the cylinder through the ring compressor and down the cylinder wall was a chore since the heater box was in the way. Rather than one good shot, I had to do it in 4 little ones. I'm gonna try taking the plugs out and hitting them with PB blaster and a small amount of 0W30 oil and see what happens.

[Rande]

Have you tried sticking a metal rod through the sparkplug hole and hitting it with a sledge hammer?
If you can get the oil pan off, you may be able to take the sledge directly to the crank. If there's not enough room to swing the sledge, a hydraulic floor jack wedged between the block and the crank should be able to move it.
Another method that may work is to fill the cylinder with gunpowder, install the sparkplug and hit the switch. :eek:
I don't think I would bother removing the engine, and actually looking in there to see what the problem is. There's gotta be some way to force it. ;)
Kids, don't try this at home.... :rolleyes:

[ November 01, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Rande ]

[will e]

Hey snake eyes. Dumb question. Are you doing it with the spark plugs out? It should be EASY to turn over with the spark plugs out.

Have you tried rotating it in the other direction?

[bentpushrod]

Something is wrong. It should turn by hand. I built a 351 cleveland and had the block bored before I got my pistons. I brought the block home put together the recpricotaing assembly and it would turn by hand, but not very easy. Really had to put some muscle to it.

I pulled it back apart, brought the block and pistons and rings to the machine shop. They had to bore a bit more for the pistons I had. Then when I put it back together again, all was well.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

If you can't turn it over, You should either eat your wheaties in the morning, or find out what the problem is. At least the engine will be safe, you can drag the rig all over creation and the motor will not turn over with an automatic. You have an internal problem and that is a fact, Good Luck

[Stuka]

Ya...even a SUPER tight new engine can be turned over by hand. I have turned over a 460 with 15:1 compression by hand and whie it was tuff, it still moved freely without any problems.

[Rogue]

just an interesting tidbit i learned the other day, there are automatics out there that can be pop started - the borgwarner in my javelin for example - apparantly it has two pumps in it - the spinning driveshaft turns the rear pump making pop starting possible - this was the first time i ever heard of pop starting an automatic but it turns out to be true maybe i should call ripley's.... smile.gif
Originally posted by Crazy_Jeepman:you can drag the rig all over creation and the motor will not turn over with an automatic.

[Tad]

Originally posted by FSJeeper:
...Do not try dragging it with with auto trans...Yep, trashedmy 442 that way.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

there are automatics out there that can be pop startedYup that is true, however none of these have been used in a FSJ. I remember my pulling my dads car around and when whe got it up to 30 MPH he would drop it in gear and it would start. I do not remember what kind of car that was though. ;)

[79cherokeechief]

has the engine been sittin a while maybe the rings siezed to the cylinders. i had an old chevy that the engine had set for many a year and wouldnt turn a shot of mystery oil in each cylinder let sit two days and it turned over.

[heydave]

You didn't get the wrong size rod bearings, did you? Undersize bearings on a standard crank would grip it tight.

[Bob Barry]

Originally posted by Crazy_Jeepman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> there are automatics out there that can be pop startedYup that is true, however none of these have been used in a FSJ. I remember my pulling my dads car around and when whe got it up to 30 MPH he would drop it in gear and it would start. I do not remember what kind of car that was though. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Well, the original version of the Torqueflite used a rear pump; I wonder if that could be adapted to the NP line of transfer-cases... :D

[Stuka]

My aunts old 68 toyota corona had a toyo glide in it. It has a rear pump and can be push started.

[Fingers]

Have you tried sticking a metal rod through the sparkplug hole and hitting it with a sledge hammer?
If you can get the oil pan off, you may be able to take the sledge directly to the crank. If there's not enough room to swing the sledge, a hydraulic floor jack wedged between the block and the crank should be able to move it.
Another method that may work is to fill the cylinder with gunpowder, install the sparkplug and hit the switch.
I don't think I would bother removing the engine, and actually looking in there to see what the problem is. There's gotta be some way to force it.
Kids, don't try this at home....

I really hope you were kidding when you said all of this. If he were to do any of this the engine would be trashed. I don't mean to offend anyone by not being able to reconize sarcasm, I'm fairly new to the board. i can't offer any advice except that there is some thing wrong if you can't turn the motor over by hand. me and my friends rebuilt a 302 this summe with 11.4:1 compression and there was no trouble turning the engin by hand. good luck on finding the problem.

[jeepguzzi]

Here is another clue to think about, Snakeyes. Did you ever watch an NHRA event?? Did you ever see them working on those huge motors with 500 or 600 cubic inches of massive piston surface area
? They are routinely turning them over by hand. Something is messed up in your motor. Check the harmonic balancer, also, maybe it is hitting something.

[Rande]

Yes Fingers, I was being a smart*$$. Though, that gunpowder idea might work.... ;)

[64Trvlr]

Originally posted by Snakeyes_Tx:
It's possible, but then that would be at the fault of the shop that pressed the piston on. The piston is actually labeled which side is the "front" towards the fan. It actually went down to the crank without a hitch, although getting the cylinder through the ring compressor and down the cylinder wall was a chore since the heater box was in the way. Rather than one good shot, I had to do it in 4 little ones. I'm gonna try taking the plugs out and hitting them with PB blaster and a small amount of 0W30 oil and see what happens.It doesn't matter who's fault it is, you need to check and see what is wrong. More force is NOT the answer here. Did you break a ring when you installed it? I sure would not use PB Blaster inside an engine, try Marvel Mystery Oil instead.
:cool:

[243]

How about an update S.........you have all these folks trying to help with your problem and your not online.

Just curious, is the starter hooked up?

Is the flywheel hooked up?

It is possible there is a piece of the #8 piston lodged between the crank and block preventing it from turning over.

[Lindel]

By reading the title of the thread very carefully, I've been able to deduce the cause of your problem, Snake. Your 413 is in one piece, it shouldn't be this way. There should be a large number of individual pieces, assembled in such a fashion that they are allowed to rotate!! :D
Just funnin with ya, of course!

[Crazy_Jeepman]

I don't think he should have used JB Weld as Assembly Lube!! :eek: :eek: Anyhow when you get to the bottom of this, let us know. ;)

[Lindel]

Snake, pull the starter, then try to turn it over by hand.

[BIG BAD JON]

We are currently having the same problem with a Ford tractor whose engine we just rebuilt. Odd stuff aint it?

[Stuka]

just wondering...but did you clearance the rod on the crank? I have built some engines where there has been zero clearance and I have had to get under sized bearings to get clearance. If there is no clearance your not gona turn it over for nothing. You will break stuff before it turns over.

[ November 02, 2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Stuka ]

[Snakeyes_Tx]

Sorry for the lack of updates... here's the 411.

When the piston originally was trashed, I took the head off and the intake. I could fairly easily crank the motor over to push the piston as close to TDC on #8 as possible. I let it get to BDC so I could loosen the rod bolts then pushed it up through the cylinder bore without much effort too. I *accidentally* began loosening #6's rod bolts but caught my error and re-torqued them back to the 39 lb/ft the TSM called for. I then had the new piston pressed on the original rod and put the rings on it. The rings went on without much of a fight by hand and a little groove getting pushed into my finger. On to the ring compressor and back into the cylinder bore it went with two pieces of rubber hose on the rod bolts and the mark "FRT" facing the radiator. I couldn't get the piston back all the way down the cylinder bore in one shot, so I took 4 small ones since the heater core was in the way. First hit took it down the bottom of the ring compressor, second hit seated it down to roughly TDC, third and fourth hits were smaller to give me ample time and clearance to lower the rod down and feed the bearing back in. The notch was in the right place on the rod and then I tapped it down until it contacted the crank journal. I replaced the rod cap and torqued it to 39 lb/ft.

The bearings are the original ones I took out and were well oiled.

I then tried cranking the motor over before putting everything back together and it wouldn't budge! I thought I may have over-torqued the caps so I backed #6's and #8's off just in case and I still couldn't turn it over. I then figured I can just put it back together and let the starter do the hard work for me.

Here's the part I neglected to mention before. We've had bad rainy weather here in Houston for about 2 months now and I've been having to work on the Jeep in the driveway since I don't have a garage. The oil pan was off the motor for about two weeks and we had constant rain then. The hood was always closed though. The crank and underside of the engine was exposed for this time I guess to water vapor if that's possible. None of the top end that was exposed had any visible sign of even surface rust-dust, like a brake rotor would get that you could wipe off with your finger. The bottom end was still coated in the oil that was slung around and it also didn't show and rust-dust from exposure to moisture. The cylinder walls were still clean as well.

All hand cranking was done with the starter off, and I didn't want to strip the crank bolt hole.

[Crazy_Jeepman]

I guess at this point I would pull the rod cap off #8 and push piston to the top of bore. Then see if you can turn over by hand.

[Stolen76]

Go back to when it did turn. I left a 6.8 liter Deere open like that for 2 months in the salt air of Florida without problem.Try what Crazy says, drop the pan, take #8 loose and push it up out of the way, then try to crank it by hand. You may have a ring or piston size problem. After you have the rod clear of the crank you should be able to rotate the piston very easily by turning the rod. If it doesn't rotate, that's where your lockup is.