Nasty surprise! Need to Sleeve all Cylinders

[Chero77]

Got a nasty surprise today. Engine shop calls and says my 401 has already been bored .060 over!!! So I go down to the shop (United Engine in LA) and check it out and sure enough each piston has "060" cast into the top and the cylinder bores measure at about 4.23 (I checked one bore myself). United will sleeve the bores back to standard for $150. United says they have not had problems with sleeves and will still honor their warranty. So, I told them to go ahead and do it.

However, I am not very happy with the idea of sleeves. Has anyone ever sleeved an engine and how did it work out?

If I were doing this in my garage, I would probably opt for a SBC conversion at this point. However, the truck and dissassembled engine are sitting at United's shop and my guess is conversions are not something they would want to do. Or if they would, its probably expensive. I will call the shop manager and discuss it anyway.

One last option of course is to junk the whole thing. I am almost tempted, but junking it would require admitting that buying a $1000 Cherokee three years ago was one big money sucking mistake (which of course it probably was).

Strange thing though is in the three years I've owned this truck it has never had overheating problems even when running in 100 plus desert heat. The possiblity the engine had ever been bored, much less bored .060, was something I never seriously considered. I just assumed it was stock.

[ July 03, 2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Chero77 ]

[joe]

If done correctly sleeves work well. I'm surprised at only $150 total though? To get a motor sleeved here w/parts & labor is $75 a hole.

[89grand]

I had a Pontiac 326 sleeved on one cylinder before and I never had a problem. I didn't like the idea at first either but after seeing it you could hardly even tell it was sleeved.

[gsmikie]

i would rather have a sleeved block the cyl's are stronger then stock $150.00 is a great price

[netbear]

Sleeve it and drive it. I have never seen a
sleeve failure in my life. I've seen race
enjines with sleeves that were installed after
connecting rod punctures in the block and even
they worked great. Most aluminum blocks have
steel sleeves by design. I say go for it!

[Chero77]

I just called United's shop manager to double check the price. Yes, it is just $150 additional. They are charging just for the cost of parts, not labor. Interestingly, he said they press fit
the sleeves and weld them at two points at the top and bottom of the cylinders to ensure that they don't move. Then grind the welds smooth.

They may be doing this just to keep a customer happy. Also, this isn't a typical lowest possible cost rebuild. I am having new Manley valves installed, new valve springs, new locks, new brass valve guides, Clevite bearings, new cam, moly rings, double roller timing chain, ARP rod bolts, i.e., all the good stuff the rebuild books say you should use. The engine is also being balanced. I ordered the parts from PAW and delievered them to United along with a check for them to get started.

I checked virtually every rebuild shop in LA, and in every case, when you ask for a quote the price they give you is based on re-using old parts: Valves are used, valve springs are used, keepers are used, guides are drilled out and inserts are installed only where absolutely needed, all bottom end bolts are old used bolts, cams are reground, new timing chains and gears are installed but they are not roller chains. The engine is not balanced, etc. The only new parts installed in these low cost rebuilds are rings (plain cast iron, bearings (a brand not carried in PAW, Summit, or Jegs catalogs) and pistons (again a brand not familer to readers of catalogs).

There is a big difference between what the various rebuild books consider to be a "standard" rebuild (i.e., what I am having done, which the LA rebuild shops consider to be a "custom" rebuild) and what most shops consider to be a "standard" rebuild (namely all used parts, with the exception of low cost off-brand rings, pistons, and bearings).

Eventually, I decided it pays to spend some extra cash to get name brand parts, and to have the engine balanced. It would really suck to have a 26 year old valve head fracture and ruin your newly rebuilt engine. Or to throw a rod because a 26 year old bolt broke.

[netbear]

$150 to sleeve all 8 is a bargan! Glad to see
you are doing the job right rather than just
low budget.

Oh, Manley makes AMC valves???

[Wesdog]

Yep, you get what you pay for and if you want cheap then they have to do what you described. I have a lot invested in my motor (don't ask) and it's something I take real seriously when it comes to what parts I put on or in it. I still have the stock 401 crank, caps, rods and block. Not much else is stock except for a few of the accessories and brackets. Boy does it all add up quick cost wise. Especially if you have to go through it twice in 2 years.
I think the sleeving is a good thing and your motor will run cooler when it's finished. Are you installing a cam retainer? Now's the time if you want to. That's the one thing I wished I had done. Performance American Style has the retainer kit with the double roller timing gears. Speaking of timing gears make dang sure United checks the oil passages through all the parts out to the distributor drive gear. You probably already know about that issue. Wes

[Chero77]

Originally posted by netbear:

Oh, Manley makes AMC valves???Yes, the part numbers are MAN-A-1849 for exhaust valves for '75-'78 and MAN-S-1806 for intake valves '73-'78. This is on page 360 of the "blue cover" PAW catalog and page 343 of the "purple cover" catalog. Amazingly, PAW seems to have all of our AMC parts in stock. PAW is in the greater Los Angeles area (Chatsworth) which is why I use them for parts. Stuff arrives at my door within one day of placing the order.

[AJ Johnson]

DEFINATELY sleeve it, unless yuo want to go ahead and go chevy... sleeving actually makes it "better" than stock... Sleeving a block allows it to be reused over and over again. unless something truly catastophic happens, that block and sleeves will never give you any trouble. Think about it like this..just about EVERY heavy duty diesel engine uses sleeves... why? durability, ease of rebuilds.. the reasons go on.

[Chero77]

I have been flipping through the PAW catalog because I remember them offering a "standard bore option" on any block you buy from them. Wanted to see what they charge compared to what United Engine is charging. Anyway, PAW's "standard bore option" is as follows: PAW will intall eight press-fit cast iron sleeves for $175 (for all eight sleeves) on small blocks. The price for sleeveing a big block is $250. Again this is for all eight cylinders. See page 90 of the new "purple cover" PAW catalog, or page 85 of the old "blue cover" catalog. If PAW can sleeve 8 clylinders for $175, then United's price of $150 seems in-line with their competition. Both PAW and United Engine are located in the Los Angeles area.

[Kaiserjeeps]

Moly rings SUCK bigtime! I will never use them again. Yes I had the correct hone done. They never seated. I put cast rings back in and way more power less blowby, less oil consumption. Save your self some teardown work later. Buy something other than moly. Did I mention moly rings suck!! ;^)).......Kaiserjeeps...(Al)..

[Stuka]

Any car out there (with the pinto being an exception) with an aluminum block will have sleves in its cylinders. Yet to see one fail, so you shouldent have any probs smile.gif

[racer32]

hey stuka- what year pinto came with an aluminum block?

[Elliott]

My '67 Triumph 4A had wet sleeves like a lot of the older British cars. They aren't welded in and you can change bore/piston size very readilly (remove head and oilpan, tap out sleeves, seat new ones with brass gaskets and tap to correct height).
Also, you can have your double shotgun barrels sleeved... and they are just soldered immediately forward of the chamber (although also held by ribs soldered top and bottom).
$150 seems very reasonable.