Hybrid TBI on my GW....and I need HELP!!!

[MjrWraith]

Ok so after a lot of thought and research, I have finally decided to convert my old '87 GW with a 360 out of an '85 GW to TBI. I am going to use the throttle body, a few sensors, ECU, and wiring harness from a junkyard donor vehicle. The majority of the sensors I am going to buy new. I'm looking at using the MegaSquirt II for a tuner. After doing some research on it though I was wondering, and this might be a stupid question but hey in my opinion the only stupid question is the one never asked, do you still need to run the ECU when you're using the MegaSquirt II or does the MegaSuirt II replace the ECU, and can you hook it up for just fuel with the ability to add ignition control later? I've looked everywhere I can think to look and can't find the answer to these. So any help would be greatly appreciated. I know a lot of you have some knowledge and experience with this. Anyways thanks for your time and I look forward to the responses. :drivin:

[FSJ Guy]

A Megasquirt controller IS the ECU.

ECU stands for Engine Control Unit, also known as ECM, which is Engine Control Module.

And yes, that's DIFFERENT than a PCM, which is a POWER Control Module which controls the engine AND the transmission. :D

So, either way, you'll need some sort of ECU/ECM to take the info from the sensors and control the injectors, IAC and timing (if you desire.)

I would really recommend computer controlled timing. It's not that much more complicated and it eliminates the Duraspark ignition entirely. Not that Duraspark is inherently BAD, but original modules are old and the "remanufactured" ones aren't known for their longevity.

[Billygoat]

Since you already have the GM ECU I'd do the chip mod and get a tuning software/ship burner and run with that, plenty of info on the web for it (check out he GM sticky)

[MjrWraith]

Hey thanks for the info guys, but I guess I should've given a few more details. I understand the difference between and ECM/ECU and a PCM. I recently upgraded the fuel control system on my wife's '85 4-Runner, and the system came with just a computer and programmer. Everything was in the computer box and I didn't know if the MegaSuirt was the same way. I've looked at the MegaSquirt system and reprogramming the chip. The MegaSquirt just fits my needs a lot better. As far as the ignition control I just don't have the ability to set it up right now (no more money). Anyways just wanted to add this little bit of info. I'm not an amateur at this but by no means am I an expert and I appreciate all the help from those with more experience than me thanks.

[Bill USN-1]

Your spending more on the megasquirt for fuel only then you would to use the GM system with fuel and spark.
There is no difference in the system except you lock out the mech adv in the distr. So there is no additional cost involved. Unless you don't have a duraspark distr, then they are only $50 at AZ if you don't want a junkyard one.

I think you are just convincing yourself why you want to go MS.

[MjrWraith]

I just like the ability to set the fuel curves and all on the MegaSquirt. I'm not a fan of using chips cause from my understanding you can't program them on the fly like the MegaSquirt. As far as the ignition system I thought you also had to have like a hall sensor or some other form of crank position sensor for the ignition. Am I just confusing my wife's MPI system with the TBI system. I know on her's I had to install the hall sensor on the crankshaft pulley to control the ignition.

[Bill USN-1]

You are only half armed.
I would recommend reading some of the basic FAQ's at the link in my sig.

Nothing more then a stock magnetic pickup like the duraspark distr has, to allow timing control.

There are simple plug in devices that allow tuning on the fly. Then when done you just burn the chip and move on to the next project.

But they really arent needed, they are just a toy to play with.
Programming a chip takes about 5 seconds.

I log data and stop in a parking lot, make changes on my laptop and burn a chip right there. Then drive some more.
Unless you trust someone else to drive or make changes while you drive, it gets a little hectic and is as bad as texting while driving.
The laptop will end up on the floorboard when you slam on the brakes.

Been doing this stuff for 10yrs so I know what works and what's really needed vs what is just neat.

[PlasticBoob]

Ok so after a lot of thought and research, I have finally decided to convert my old '87 GW with a 360 out of an '85 GW to TBI. I am going to use the throttle body, a few sensors, ECU, and wiring harness from a junkyard donor vehicle. The majority of the sensors I am going to buy new. I'm looking at using the MegaSquirt II for a tuner. After doing some research on it though I was wondering, and this might be a stupid question but hey in my opinion the only stupid question is the one never asked, do you still need to run the ECU when you're using the MegaSquirt II or does the MegaSuirt II replace the ECU, and can you hook it up for just fuel with the ability to add ignition control later? I've looked everywhere I can think to look and can't find the answer to these. So any help would be greatly appreciated. I know a lot of you have some knowledge and experience with this. Anyways thanks for your time and I look forward to the responses. :drivin:
When I was considering which ECU to use, I did months of thorough research and found MegaSquirt II to be a VASTLY superior system to these old hacked ECUs the GM boys are running. I was going to make a website listing all of the MegaSquirt advantages, but never got around to it, and now I can't remember them all exactly (maybe they're in my notes...) Anyway, I would not switch from MegaSquirt if you paid me; it's that good. The flexibility of the system is simply mind-blowing; it's the Linux of the EFI world. It requires more initial education, but if you do more research and compare the systems, I am sure you will come to that conclusion as well. However, if this is your daily driver, or you will allow someone else to fondle and fix your baby when something goes wrong, MegaSquirt isn't for you.

Going off of memory here: MegaSquirt consists of a physical box that contains the system board and the processor/integrated circuit/code. There are three versions of the board, and three processors. The MegaSquirt version is a combination of the system board and the processor/code. For example, MegaSquirt II implies a version 3 system board, but that isn't always the case - for example, you can plug a MegaSquirt III expansion board into the v3 system board, or plug a MSII IC into a v2.2 system board (some mods are necessary I believe).

Anyway, you will need to use the ECU. You will also need a MegaSquirt-specific wiring harness, which you can solder the sensor pigtails into. It is advisable to use a wideband oxygen sensor, and run without timing control at first to set up your fuel table. Once you get that dialed in, you can add timing control. This is the stage of the game I'm at, but lately life has prevented me from giving my Jeep much attention.

As far as I know, I was the first person around here to inject a 401 (407), so there was no data to borrow from anyone to use on a hacked GM system - I had to start from scratch... and since I was starting from scratch, I gave MegaSquirt a look, and fell hook, line, and sinker. ;) It may be easier for you to go with a hacked GM ECU, since there are tons of TBI'd 360s floating around at this point, and sharing the programming will save you tons of work.

So basically, you need:

The ECU: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-programmable-efi-system-pcb30-kit-black-case-p-119.html

Harness: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/839-megasquirt-wiring-harness-ms1-ms2-ms3-ready-p-477.html

Optionally - wideband oxygen sensor and controller: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-lc1-digital-wideband-controller-with-sensor-3769-p-41.html

The price for the LC-1 has jumped greatly in recent years, how unfortunate. It's a great investment, however, and for the time it has saved me in tuning I definitely don't consider it optional.

[Bill USN-1]

PB,
I think the flaw in your logic is you started out thinking your AMC was something special and you had to reinvent the wheel to install a system.

The fact is that the EFI system, no matter what it is, doesn't care what motor it is bolted to.

So you "could" have simply followed any TBI conversion and completed the same process on yours. It's been done regularly since about the early 90's.

You have a 407ci internal combustion, naturally aspirated engine. No more no less.

All an EFI system cares about is how far the throttle is open, how much change in manifold vacuum, and is the engine burning all the fuel that is injected.

So any system can be installed and tuned on any engine.

[PlasticBoob]

Hey thanks for the info guys, but I guess I should've given a few more details. I understand the difference between and ECM/ECU and a PCM. I recently upgraded the fuel control system on my wife's '85 4-Runner, and the system came with just a computer and programmer. Everything was in the computer box and I didn't know if the MegaSuirt was the same way. I've looked at the MegaSquirt system and reprogramming the chip. The MegaSquirt just fits my needs a lot better. As far as the ignition control I just don't have the ability to set it up right now (no more money). Anyways just wanted to add this little bit of info. I'm not an amateur at this but by no means am I an expert and I appreciate all the help from those with more experience than me thanks.
Oops, I didn't read this - you will need - GASP! - a laptop to tune MegaSquirt box/ECU - that's not asking much at all as we roll into 2012, lol. You can tune it as you're driving, if necessary (I've had to do this more than a few times and it's not as dramatic as Bill suggests). But usually, you turn datalogging on, drive, recalculate and modify parts of the maps if necessary, then repeat until everything is dialed in. It's pretty darn easy.

Acceleration Enrichment seems to be the biggest hurdle, as it's completely subjective. Some people like a nice, soft, easy tip-in, and others like snappy, aggressive acceleration (like me). This is where tuning from the driver's seat really helps, because it's hard to get it just right without going excessively rich. Like I said: log, drive, change, repeat.

[PlasticBoob]

PB,
I think the flaw in your logic is you started out thinking your AMC was something special and you had to reinvent the wheel to install a system.

The fact is that the EFI system, no matter what it is, doesn't care what motor it is bolted to.

So you "could" have simply followed any TBI conversion and completed the same process on yours. It's been done regularly since about the early 90's.

You have a 407ci internal combustion, naturally aspirated engine. No more no less.

All an EFI system cares about is how far the throttle is open, how much change in manifold vacuum, and is the engine burning all the fuel that is injected.

So any system can be installed and tuned on any engine.
No, I am and was aware of that. I did not really start out wanting to tinker with EFI - I wanted to go with a GM system, borrow a map from someone, and lead-foot from there. When I quickly realized (like so many others) that I couldn't just slap it on, load a borrowed map, and go on my merry way, I decided to look at the other systems out there, and MegaSquirt won me over with its openness, hardware superiority, adaptability and flexibility. :thumbsup: I started researching all of this in 2004/2005 I believe, and the state of things was very different back then.

[Bill USN-1]

Oops, I didn't read this - you will need - GASP! - a laptop to tune MegaSquirt box/ECU - that's not asking much at all as we roll into 2012, lol. You can tune it as you're driving, if necessary (I've had to do this more than a few times and it's not as dramatic as Bill suggests). But usually, you turn datalogging on, drive, recalculate and modify parts of the maps if necessary, then repeat until everything is dialed in. It's pretty darn easy.

Acceleration Enrichment seems to be the biggest hurdle, as it's completely subjective. Some people like a nice, soft, easy tip-in, and others like snappy, aggressive acceleration (like me). This is where tuning from the driver's seat really helps, because it's hard to get it just right without going excessively rich. Like I said: log, drive, change, repeat.

I find your AE process a little flawed.

Tuning is tuning and AE tuning is the same.
If you are using a wideband O2 then you would be watching the real time data and tuning the AE until there is no dip or rise as you tip in the throttle.

If it is lean it will have a hesitation depending on how much.
If it's rich then it will cause a bog like a quadrajet.
So there is only one way to properly tune it.

Timing would have more effect on the accelleration then the AE.

But it's all part of learning how to tune and learning what your engine really wants.

[PlasticBoob]

I find your AE process a little flawed.

Tuning is tuning and AE tuning is the same.
If you are using a wideband O2 then you would be watching the real time data and tuning the AE until there is no dip or rise as you tip in the throttle.

If it is lean it will have a hesitation depending on how much.
If it's rich then it will cause a bog like a quadrajet.
So there is only one way to properly tune it.

Timing would have more effect on the accelleration then the AE.

But it's all part of learning how to tune and learning what your engine really wants.
You're right, I have been desperately wanting to get timing control working because I did realize that I need more advance for the acceleration feel that I want. Unfortunately, running a business and going for a second degree has kept me out of the loop for a couple of years.

I think I partially disagree with what you said regarding there being one way to tune AE - I understand the goal is to keep the AFR the same as we apply AE, but I have found that I can have a nice, soft, linear acceleration (on the leaner side of things but still below 14.7), or have a very responsive, agressive, "barking" acceleration (the 'correct' way I guess) - it's hard to explain, but I can definitely get two different tip-in "feels", and I don't think that there is only one proper way to set it - sure mathematically there is, but as far as "seat of the pants" goes, it's whatever the driver wants. It reminds me of pressing the Sport Mode button on my M3 - it's a noticeable difference. Ok, bad analogy since the M3's six throttle bodies are drive-by-wire. So, put another way, it's kind of like changing accelerator pump cams on a Holley - I went through just about all of them on my Truck Avenger, and got the same varying results. My goal is "barking without bogging", I guess, as I usually drive aggressively. There are some days when I just feel like cruising, and the touchiness of the throttle tip-in can annoying. There are about 8 different AE variables in MegaSquirt, including MAP-based, TPS-based, or any combination of the two, so it is hard to dial in to exactly what I want. :)

[Bill USN-1]

Keep in mind that the TPS based is for the initial tip in and that the map based if for the duration of the pump shot.

Were getting off topic but another thing that comes into play is PE-power enrichment. This is applied anytime the pedal is opened above a preset limit. Then 14.7 is ignored and it will go richer based on the PE tables. So it could be anywhere from 12.0-14.7 based on rpm/map/tps.

PS: I just retired from the Navy, finished my degree and started my business. So I think I understand.

[PlasticBoob]

PB,
I think the flaw in your logic is you started out thinking your AMC was something special and you had to reinvent the wheel to install a system.

The fact is that the EFI system, no matter what it is, doesn't care what motor it is bolted to.
One more thing... you make it sound so easy - but say you are a kid new to EFI, have a base map for a Chevy 350, and are injecting a 401 with a completely different aftermarket cam, and you DON'T have a wideband O2 sensor: you are going to run into big trouble, and possibly melted pistons, as you try to tune the upper end of your fuel map. Unless you take your car to a dyno shop, you're never going to be 100% accurate in those cells, and a narrowband oxygen sensor is useless at high RPM and load, especially if the cells are that far off. What do you do, guess? Become a physics major and calculate each cell by hand? Trust an online GIGO calculator? You have to reinvent the wheel. And that's when you start looking at a wideband oxygen sensor, and then the other systems out there (MegaSquirt).

[PlasticBoob]

Keep in mind that the TPS based is for the initial tip in and that the map based if for the duration of the pump shot.

Were getting off topic but another thing that comes into play is PE-power enrichment. This is applied anytime the pedal is opened above a preset limit. Then 14.7 is ignored and it will go richer based on the PE tables. So it could be anywhere from 12.0-14.7 based on rpm/map/tps.

PS: I just retired from the Navy, finished my degree and started my business. So I think I understand.

I agree, I hate getting off topic but have an annoying tendency to do so. :( Best of luck with your business, by the way!

I don't think there's a PE equivalent in MegaSquirt - everything feeds off of the Volumetric Efficiency table, and the system corrects it based on a customizable AFR table and wideband feedback (within ranges you proscribe). If anything, you have motivated me to get back in the game, so I think I should start hitting the EFI books again!

[PlasticBoob]

To get back on topic, there is no additional cost going from fuel-only to timing control on MegaSquirt II; everything you need is there already, and can be disabled while you're setting up your fuel tables with mechanical timing. When you decide to make the move to MegaSquirt-controlled timing, you have many choices: you can purchase a GM 7-pin timing-control distributor module as the GM guys do (I'm not sure if they caught up to controlling the coil directly from the ECU), or you can completely do away with this and let the MegaSquirt ECU perform its function (one less module and one more advantage of MegaSquirt in my opinion). Be aware that some of these choices may require you to change some things on the board (requiring de-soldering, moving things around, and re-soldering), but if you make the right choices as you're assembling your kit, changes will be minimal, if at all.

For the tachometer signal (the most important part of the whole deal): you can trigger the ECU with the stock Hall Effect sensor in the Ford distributor, the VR sensor in an HEI distributor, a crank trigger wheel and Hall Effect sensor, or points. Yes, even points will trigger MegaSquirt. You will need this regardless of whether or not you are running fuel-only, or fuel+timing control. I have been triggering with a 4-pin HEI module, but will be moving to a crank trigger and Hall Effect sensor, as I am getting noise from either the HEI coil, the PWM injector drivers, or both. I'm also going to add a separate Peak & Hold injector driver board inside the MegaSquirt box to eliminate PWM as it's an inelegant solution. ( http://www.jbperf.com/p&h_board/ ). Note that many people have used PWM successfully.

[MjrWraith]

Ok thanks for the debate guys...lol. It was actually quite helpful. I'm still a ways away from getting everything done, but I figured if I start researching and all now when the time comes to get it all installed I'll be going into it with as much knowledge as possible. So if anybody has anymore advice or bits of information please share.

[FSJ Guy]

RE changing tunes "on the fly": That is really only super useful if you have someone ELSE drive the vehicle and YOU adjust the bin.

Otherwise, you're going to have to STOP the vehicle and edit data anyway. It takes me less than a minute to burn a new EEPROM (including verifying) and I'm ready to drive around again.

Also, depending on what ECM you use, Moates offers bin switchers which allow you to instantly change what bin your computer is running off of. This allows you a "valet" mode (limit RPM and speed) as well as a towing/power mode and an econo mode. (quit laughing)

If you buy the AutoProm, you can have real time emulation, but again, you only need it if there are two people in the vehicle, one to drive and one to adjust the bin.

As always, different strokes for different folks. Some people like the autotuning feature, others like the security of being based on common GM parts and other people want a turnkey system that they can "set it and forget it".

[MjrWraith]

Also, depending on what ECM you use, Moates offers bin switchers which allow you to instantly change what bin your computer is running off of. This allows you a "valet" mode (limit RPM and speed) as well as a towing/power mode and an econo mode. (quit laughing)
I'm checking out Moates right now and I am really intrigued. I thought chips took a lot more time and all to re-program but after looking at the Moates website it really seems to be about equal to the MegaSquirt. Just a different method to the same end. Anyways FSJ Guy I was wondering what all you're running on your system as far as things you got from Moates and all. Thanks.

P.s. You're comment on "econo mode" was great. I couldn't help but laugh.

[FSJ Guy]

With the '7747 ECM, you can use a Burn2 and the ALDL cable. You can make your own EEPROM adapter or buy one. Details for that are on the Binder Planet site. Bill has EXCELLENT writeups on how to use the 27SF512 chip for that ECM

If you want to do real time emulation, the AutoProm is the way to go. It will emulate AND datalog AT THE SAME TIME.

If you are thinking you will want to upgrade, OR if you want to dive into the 16197427 PCM immediately AND want to switch between multiple bins, you will need the Burn2. The AutoProm will NOT write the larger chip that is required for that.

The AutoProm WILL WORK for a single bin on the 16197427.

Now, go re-read Bills FAQs on the Binder Planet website. Then come back with more questions. :D

[MjrWraith]

Ok so I've read up on some articles from Bill (thanks for all the info you've compiled), and from other sites like thirdgen, moates, and an assortment of others. I've decided to trash the MegaSquirt idea. For one it actually seems like it's going to be a little more difficult to set-up, at least in my opinion. Another reason is it's going to be a little more expensive. I think I'll start out with a basic setup and then move to more advanced tuning from there. A question I have though is concerning the actual throttle body itself. The motor I am running is an AMC 360 std. bore and stroke, heads machined 0.30, a COMP 270H cam with about a 270 duration, and an Edelbrock AMC Performer series 4-bbl intake manifold. So do I need to find the Throttle Body off of a 454 or is a 350 ok, also will an adapter plate work on my manifold? I'm pretty sure the manifold will work with the adapter plate but I want to see what some of those with more experience in this have to say about it. Anyways thanks for all the help and info.

[FSJ Guy]

I am running a 350 throttle body on my 401 with 80 lb injectors. A 350 TBI on your 360 will be fine. If you want bragging rights, pony up for the 454 throttle body. The injector pod is the same.

The "regular" 4 bbl TBI adapters will work on the Performer. That's the intake I'm using.

[MjrWraith]

Ok that's what I thought but as I said a little experienced advice goes a long way I've found out. As far as bragging rights...the way I look at it; it's not a hot rod so as long as it produces the power I need to do what i need it to do I'm ok.

[FSJ Guy]

Ok that's what I thought but as I said a little experienced advice goes a long way I've found out. As far as bragging rights...the way I look at it; it's not a hot rod so as long as it produces the power I need to do what i need it to do I'm ok.

I was worried about running my injectors static (held open 100%) with the 401 so I sourced out some 80 lb/hr injectors. Seems to work fine. I may try running E85 later so I wanted the extra margin that the larger injectors would give me.

[Bill USN-1]

GM in about 94 changed from 13psi to about 25psi on the 454. By doing this they went with the a smaller injector that is about a 5.0 injector.

So there is no need to pay the big dollars for bigger injectors. Just adjust the pressure to suit.

[MjrWraith]

From what I understand the stock injectors will work fine for my setup, or do I need to go up a size on the injectors? Injector size is where I seem to be having my issue now.

[Bill USN-1]

I'm confused?
Why are you saying your having an injector size issue?

[MjrWraith]

Sorry I worded that wrong. Can I use the stock injectors off of a '91 1500 Suburban with a 350 or do I need to go to a bigger size. I've done the math and from what I am coming up with the stock injectors seem to be an ok size but I also know my math can be off sometimes. Anyways just trying to make sure I don't get halfway into this and realize something's the wrong size or something else. Just trying to cover all of my bases here ya know.

[jaber]

The stock injectors should be fine. The 350 is a 5.7 L engine and the 360 is a 5.9 L. They are close enough to get good results from.

The timing is inexpensive to set up. The module was the biggest cost. Swapping to the big cap,rotor and coil at the same time is nice.

[FSJ Guy]

Yup, the injectors spec'd for a Chevy 350 will be fine.

[Bill USN-1]

As I posted right before your comment, you can effectively increase the size of the injector by just increasing the fuel pressure.
The formula spreadsheet to calculate for you and the FAQ to show how to make the regulator adjustable is all provided for you.

GM always ran their injectors on the small side so it doesn't hurt to set the regulator on the high side of the 11-13psi spec anyways. The stock regulator can normally be turned up to about 15psi.

http://www.binderplanet.com/photopost/watermark.php?file=15034

[MjrWraith]

Ok I thought the stock injectors would work. I read all the articles and everything and that's where I got my info but I just don't want to screw this up. I guess I'm erring a little too far on the side of caution. Sorry for all the questions I just really don't want to half-*ss this you know. :o

[jaber]

With the days and days worth of reading material out there, its easy to feel overwhelmed. Only you will know what combination fits your driving style. The best coarse is to take one part at a time, build your system, and then run it to see what you are dissatisfied with. ;)

[Bill USN-1]

Ok I thought the stock injectors would work. I read all the articles and everything and that's where I got my info but I just don't want to screw this up. I guess I'm erring a little too far on the side of caution. Sorry for all the questions I just really don't want to half-*ss this you know. :o
This is why I put together the EFI FAQ's-frequently asked questions on the binderplanet.com It explains each part of the system, where to get the parts,how to install the parts, what wires need to be used and which are optional.
Then I even show the installation step by step. Keep in mind that the system doesn't care what engine it is bolted to.
Then I even show how to log data and how to make the changes. Some of the programmers to use and how to convert to the 28pin chip for no money.

The only guys that have problems are the ones that don't follow the FAQs or think that the install on their brand engine is somehow different then the install for any other carbed engine.

They are all the same and have the same requirements. Tuning the system for the engine it is bolted on.

[MjrWraith]

With the days and days worth of reading material out there, its easy to feel overwhelmed. Only you will know what combination fits your driving style. The best coarse is to take one part at a time, build your system, and then run it to see what you are dissatisfied with. ;)

Thanks I guess I need to quit sweating every minor detail and just start the process of figuring out what is going to fit me the best. I feel extremely overwhelmed right now with everything I have read. I've done EFI to Carb and Carb to EFI on I don't know how many Harley's. I've even updated my wife's '85 Toyota 4-Runner's EFI system with a more modern one. I don't know why I'm sweating this one so much. Bill I appreciate all the FAQ's you've posted and I honestly have read and re-read them all so many times my heads spinning. I think I'm just making a mountain out of a mole hill.:banghead: Thanks everyone for all your input. Now I'm going to just swallow my insecurity and start ordering parts. A special thanks to Bill and FSJ Guy you've both been a great help and I know I've been a bit aggravating at times.:thumbsup:

[Woodchomper]

So what is the latest status of your EFI conversion?

I have a word of advice if you are interested. When you shop for a 4bbl-to-TBI adapter plate try to find one that centers the TBI over the 4bbl opening. On my first TBI conversion, I used a Holley adapter that positioned the TBI toward the front of the engine. I got all the throttle and kickdown linkage to work but it was a PIA. A center mounted TBI adapter will put the throttle body closer to the factory carb position.

One last thing, how does your engine run now with the carb setup? I ran a Comp 268 cam in a J10 with a 2bbl and it ran great. It even passed CA Smog testing (the reason for the 2bbl). The engine had a slight lope at idle and people always said, "You've got a cam in that don't you?" Anyway, before I put the 401 in my Wagoneer, I put some new heads on the Wagoneer's 360 and the Comp 268 cam from the J10. I remember having a hell of a time dialing in the idle with that cam (read up on open loop and closed loop idle). Eventually, I got everything tuned and running good. However, that Wagoneer with the TBI 360 never ran as good as the carburated J10 truck. I'll attribute the less than stellar performance to a weak bottom end on the Wagoneer's 360. I've always wondered if I set up something wrong on the TBI 360 or if it was the Cam/TBI combo. Don't get me wrong the Wagoneer ran good but not great like the J10.

The 401 I built to replace the Wagoneer's 360 has a Crane H260 cam and it was a breeze to set up the fuel injection. In fact, that 401 is one of the best running AMC engines I've ever had.

Anyway, good luck on your project.

[MjrWraith]

I'm still working out the "kinks" in the carb tuning. It's got a slight hesitation when you first accelerate. It's horrid while the motor's cold and improves to tolerable as the motor warms up. The 270H COMP cam is a 268 duration so I am running probably the same cam. With the 4-bbl edelbrock my mileage just doesn't seem to be great. I'm wondering if I can put the stock Motorcraft back on considering I just rebuilt it last summer. So I know it's still good. As for the EFI I am collecting parts as we speak. I'm currently trying to get a hold of the TBI and all I need from a junkyard donor. It's just hard to find a vehicle with everything in one piece it seems. Some of the sensors and other misc. items I'm just going to purchase new for reasons that I just don't want to type out. I'm curious as to why your 360 didn't run very well. I did a complete overhaul so I can't speculate on if that was your issue or if it was the EFI. Anyways just wanted to give everyone an update. Thanks!

[MjrWraith]

Ok so things are moving a bit quicker than I had thought. It looks like I'm going to have the money to go ahead and start putting my TBI system together. My brother does a lot of work with varying EFI systems and he uses UniChip for all his computer tuning and upgrading. Expense wise it's the same as Moates and there is no soldering or anything like that involved, as far as I know. Like I said he uses them all the time so I am probably going to use Uni because I have someone right here locally who can help me and all. So for me it's going to be the best choice. Anyways I'm curious if anyone else has had any experience with them. If not I think I'll do a write up on it to add to the list of possible system configurations. Just thought I'd give everyone an update.

[FSJ Guy]

UniChip appears to be available for ODB-II vehicles only. It looks like a piggy-back style system that plugs in between the sensors/actuators and the ECM. Those type of systems don't re-program the ECM. They just fool the ECM in to thinking its running a factory system when it's really not.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it doesn't look like it isn't reprogramming anything. :-/ That said, I couldn't learn much about the system because their website is awful! Lots of end end links. That doesn't bode well for their product, IMHO.

As for soldering in an adapter, Or simply ask around. SOMEONE you know is likely to know how to solder. Besides, the adapter isn't that tough to solder. There are no components that are extremely heat sensitive that you are soldering directly onto. Just don't melt the plastic on the adapter and you're good to go! :D

For under $200, you can have REAL customization tuning abilities on a GM TBI system with Moates' products or similar. And you've got a GM based system that you can get parts for just about anywhere.

[JeepsAndGuns]

If sodering really scares you, you have a couple options.
1. Send it to someone who can do it. I have sodered quite a few, you find a ecm and I can soder in the sockets you desire.
2. Run a 16197427 pcm. There is a steeper learning curve, but its a newer and faster computer, and you can buy a adapter from moates that just plugs in, no sodering required. You can read about it in my sticky thread at the top of thes forum.

[MjrWraith]

Ok so after talking to my brother about Unichip and bringing up some qeustions, like the fact that it like like it only works for OBD-II and is a piggyback style system, he informed me that they do make products for OBD I. They don;t market it on their website though. It's only available to a dealer, which he is. The system for OBD II IS a piggy back, but the system for OBD I is not. It replaces the ECM. Now that's all great and good but I have issues. One if they still build the merchandise then why hide it from the public and offer no information. Second why only sell to a dealer. I just feel sketchy about it so I thanked my brother for his help and advice but I know moates will work and they sell to everyone. Soldering doesn't scare me, in fact letting someone else work on my truck scares me. I just don't enjoy soldering on boards. So I am sticking with Moates if anyone gets some info to change my mind on Unichip then please pass it along. For right now I am sticking with what I know.