Help finding AMC 20 parts

[crazandy]

I'm in the process of swapping a 1985 Grand Wagoneer AMC 20 into my CJ5 and am having some problems finding parts.

I need the backing plates for the brakes, and I also need a bearing/seal kit for the axle shafts.

If you all could point me to some websites that would be great.

Thanks,
- Andrew

[AMX factor]

NAPA should have the bearing kits. Hit the junkyards for the backing plates. An easy source for AMC 20 parts are the larger AMC cars, Javelin, Matador, Pacer. They all used the AMC 20 as a rear.

[Cliff]

Try Kennedy American, no web site but 614-879-7283. If it's busy keep trying.

[Joe Guilbeau]

Look to replace the AMC 20 sometime in the future, what you are experiencing now will only get worse as time progresses.

[crazandy]

You mean replace it because it will be hard to find parts?

[Oracle]

I respectfully disagree. Lots of 20's laying around that could be gotten for cheap. They are actually pretty good units, one thing you want to do is have someone run a bead along the diff to tube joints to keep em from spinning. Otherwise you can get all the innards you need from Randy's Ring and Pinion (btw negotiate with em over the phone, they WILL 'deal') oh, and if you back into rocks often you're going to need a rock protector for that flimsy little diff cover.

[scotty]

i respectfully disagree as well. parts availability will continue to be as good as it will be for the 44,specially in the diff/locker/gear dept due to the popularity of the axle in the cj.

for comparative purposes,IMO the m20 is a stornger axle than a 44. slightly bigger ring gear,bigger pinion,comparable sahfts

either a 44 or an m20 is gonna need a truss if you plan to beat on it and bounce it around.

andrew youre makin a good choice of axle for your cj,i really dont know why more of you cj guys dont use FSJ m20s-get the 44 and 9" out of your heads as the "ultimate cj axle" ;) tongue.gif

if i were you,id ditch the drums. discs are easy. weld-on caliper brackets from A&A manufacturing are $7 apiece. use 91 and up k1500 front rotors,front gm calipers and hoses,you can do it for round $150 or less if you buy all the parts brand new. my jeep used to eat rear shoes.discs are a very worthwhile upgrade.

ive got 2 complete axles plus an extra set of shafts ill make ya a good deal on if you need some extra parts.

if youre instant on keeping the drums,i may have some backing plates from a cj axle if you need em...

[ October 09, 2003, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[scotty]

Originally posted by Oracle:
one thing you want to do is have someone run a bead along the diff to tube joints to keep em from spinning.not sure id reccomend doing that. ive heard from some people that than can make the tubes more brittle,and instead of spinning theyll snap off :eek: if anyone has done this to their axle and abused it for a period of time,id like to hear some other opinions on it.

iran an m20 with 38s for a long time and never spun tubes. and the last year was with it welded smile.gif

[crazandy]

Originally posted by scotty:
if i were you,id ditch the drums. discs are easy. weld-on caliper brackets from A&A manufacturing are $7 apiece. use 91 and up k1500 front rotors,front gm calipers and hoses,you can do it for round $150 or less if you buy all the parts brand new. my jeep used to eat rear shoes.discs are a very worthwhile upgrade.Do you have any more information on the swap? Will I need a bigger master cylinder? Do I need to change my proportioning valve? What do I do about an emergency brake?

I'm looking at advance auto parts website just to get an idea on prices and this is what I'm coming up with:

1992 CHEVROLET C1500 PICKUP V8 5.0 Liter FI
Calipers - 148.38
Rotors - 127.98
Brake Hoses (Left and Right) - 36.48
Caliper Bracket (http://www.aa-mfg.com/pdshop/shop/category.asp?catid=3) - Which one do I need?

Do you have any cheaper sources for parts?

[scotty]

calipers should not be from that year. calipers are $12.99 if you buy them for a 77 chevy 1/2 ton 4wd. if you need a mechanical e brake you can use caddy eldorado rear calipers,but theyre more $$ at round $75 apiece plus a core. im using steering brakes for a buggy for an e brake(just made a lever that keeps the handles flipped up). they alse sell a hydraulic "park lok" at the buggy shops,and ive also heard of people using electric line locks or small ball valves.

one word on the caddy rear calipers-they must come from a late 70s-ish car,in order to interchange with the gm fron calipers. the rear caddy calipers in the 80s are smaller and will need a different caliper bracket

rotors-are you looking at them for a 4wd??? i only piad $24.99 apiece for mine at the 'Zone. they slide over the hub like a FWD car in the 4ed truck application,and since they are 6 lugs they will slid perfectly over the rear axleshaft flange.

price is bout right n the hoses, but get them for the 77 truck.

im using item # AA-049A on the caliper brackets. i got 4 of em 6.77 apiece and 5.20 ahipping 32.28 to my door. they are in spring lake,MI. i know they have a website,ill try and dig it up for ya if you cant find it.

we just converted my friends scout ii to rear discs using all the above parts,and i used the same ones in covnerting my old rear 44,with the exception of a home made caliper bracket cause i didnt know of the $7 A&A ones at the time.

im using my factory master cyl and prop valve,but im running 38" tires on a full size jeep. cant comment on wether youd need an upgrade with factory cj5 stuff. if you have prollems with the rear tires locking up first the easy fix is an adjustable valve inline to the rear brakes smile.gif

further questions? smile.gif

[ January 18, 2004, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[Simple Kind of Man]

scotty, so you are saying that if I have

1. caliper brackets from A&A part# ???
2. calipers from '77 chevy 1/2 4x4
3. rotors from '77 chevy 1/2 4x4
4. hoses from '77 chevy 1/2 4x4

that I can have rear disc on my amc20????
I have an'81 j-10 that I have been wanting to do this to for a while. If this is true could you give some spacifics(?) on where to weld the brackets? Pics would also be nice as I would not be the one to do the welding. (don't trust my welding that much)

crazandy; I apoligize for hijacking your thread. This is something that I have seen discussed on here before mostly for the 44 when it came to the amc 20 the info was a little vague

TIA Tim.

[BMB]

FYI

CJ AMC20 and FSJ AMC20 are not the same. The axle tubes and backing plates are different. FSJ 20 tubes are bigger diameter and supposedly thicker and the outer axle bearings are different, as are the backing plates. The tubes are also spot welded to the center section.

However, the gears and all bearings, etc in the center section are the same.

For backing plates on a FSJ 20 you should be able to use FSJ Dana 44 backing plates also.

BMB

[scotty]

Originally posted by MUDDER-TRUCKER #1:
scotty, so you are saying that if I have

1. caliper brackets from A&A part# ???
2. calipers from '77 chevy 1/2 4x4
3. rotors from '77 chevy 1/2 4x4
4. hoses from '77 chevy 1/2 4x4

well,almost ;)

1)caliper brackets for A&A part # AA-049A
2)calipers/pads from 77 1/2 4x4
3)hoses also from 77 1/2 4x4
4)rotors must come from a 91 or later IFS 1/2 ton,4WD truck,"heavy duty chassis". the front rotors for the IFS truck slide over the sealed-bearing hub assembly like a FWD car does,and will slide right over your rear axle flange.its really slick-youd think they were made for this reason

proper procedure for locating the bracket:
*first disassemble both sides. cut down your factory drum backing plate to the shape of the flange so its not in your way,and bolt the axle back in with the cut down plate in its factory location. this is important cause the plates space out the retaing flanges to put the proper preload on the wheel bearings.

1) slide thr rotor onto the axlehsaft flange,bolt it on with a couple lugnuts.
2) bolt the caliper to the bracket.
3) put the bracket/caliper over the rotor. eyeball it to make sure 100% of the pad will touch the rotor. all axlehousnigs are different,so in some case a universal bracket may be alittle too tall. if you have some pad overhang,it prolly wont hurt anything(in fact my friends scout is that way-theres alittle strip of pad at the top that doesnt wear) but now is the time to check it if you think it may bother you later. youll just have to cut/gring alittle of the bottom of the bracket for good placement on the tube
4) run the new hardlines,hoses,hook up the calipers,blead the brakes. with the caliper positioned over the rotor with a brand new set of pads,apply the brakes so the caliper clamps firmly down on the rotor. now weld the bracket on in this spot
5) since the brackets are thin,what my friends and i like to to is add a couple of triangle gussets to each bracket. this is prolly unnecessary,but it makes us feel better ;)

tim,pretty much everything youve read on discs for the 44 also applies to the m20. the ends of the tubes are the same,as far as adding the discs goes. also wether or not youll need an adjustable rear valve depends on the tires you run.a bigger tire is harder to lock up ;)

im running 38s and just have my rear brakes coming off the factory prop valve. imusing a booster from an earlier j10(77ish) and a master cyl from a 77ish impala station wagon. dont laugh,those were the parts i had layin around when i put it togetehr. my factory booster and plastic m/c were melted in an engine fire before i got it

at any rate,with this combo i have never really noticed the rears locking up before the fronts. i can lock up all 4 in the dirt pretty easy,and i can creep down hills real slow-the brakes work well.

last and not least,here is a pic of my home made bracket that shows the approximaet location:
http://www.fullsizejeeps.com/jeeps/files/Technical/44discbracket.jpg

you can see the 91 k1500 rotor on the ground
further disc brake questions? smile.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[crazandy]

Thanks for the info, it looks like that's what I'm going to do, other than I'll use the Cadilac calipers so I can have an e-brake.

I also found this website:
http://www.hallbergs.com/reardisc.htm

[Simple Kind of Man]

So scotty do the k1500 rotors have the same bolt pattern or do they have to be redrilled? Also "cut down the factory drum backing plate to the shape of the flangeso it is not in your way " What flange? Sorry about all the questions but I want to really understand and have my ducks in a row when I get started. Is this an afternoon project,assuming you have everthing you need or how much time should I allow?

[crazandy]

The drum backing plate is inbetween the axle flange and the axle, so I'm assuming you have to cut that down to the size of the axle flange so that you still have that spacing in there.

The K1500 rotors should be the same, I'm not sure why that guy on the website had to redrill his. Maybe he has larger studs?

[scotty]

i really cant imagine why he had to redrill,unless he was converting to 5 lugs. on my friends scout ii we redrilled the k1500 rotor to fit the 5 on 5.5 pattern. its pretty slick-ifn he ever decided to install 6 lug axles,he can reuse the same rotor :D

if he had simply installed larger studs, all he had to do was make the 6 holes allready in the rotor bigger. no need to use the drum as a pattern :confused:

mr mudder,the k1500 rotor is indeed the same 6 lug pattern,and the centering hole fits the axlesahft perfectly. i did not redrill or enlarge the holes when using the k1500 rotor on my 44.

crazandy 'splained it pretty well. the drum brake plate needs to be there for spacing when you bolt the axle in to preload the wheelbearings,so you just cut it down to the shape of the 4 hole flange on the axletube and bolt it back in place when you reinstall the axleshaft.

[crazandy]

I picked up rotors from a 91 K1500 4WD and they were too big for the El Dorado calipers, then I went back and realized I had bought the rotors for the HD brake packaged, so I got some regular rotors and they work great.

Just wanted to add that for anyone else thinking about doing the conversion. Also, I bought the AA-049A Brackets, and they are 7" apart holes, so I'm going to have to call them and see what other brake caliper brackets they have have the holes 5.5" apart for the El Dorado calipers.

[crazandy]

Looks like I need part number AA-113-A.

http://www.aa-mfg.com/pdshop/shop/item.asp?itemid=20

[scotty]

hmmmm,now im confused. id always heard that the caddy rear calipers were a direct replacement for the gm front calipers :confused: i wonder why youre having prollems? what year caddy did ypou but them for?

when i bought my k1500 rotors,the HD and regulaar rotors were same dimeter,but the HD ones were thicker. is this what you encountered as well?

the k1500 HD rotor is the same dimeter/thickness as a stock front rotor,a FYI for those who will be using stock fromt calipers.

let us know when you get it all together

[ January 18, 2004, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[Joe Guilbeau]

Originally posted by Joe Guilbeau:
Look to replace the AMC 20 sometime in the future, what you are experiencing now will only get worse as time progresses.Are we having fun yet?

[J10Mike]

if i was going to replace my m20, i would replace it with a d60 and d44hd up front. other than that, the m20 stays.

mike

[crazandy]

The new A&A bracket I ordered is going to work. But I'm going to hold off on installing it after I finish up the D44 swap.

Yes, the HD rotors were too thick and wouldn't fit in the eldorado calipers, but the regular ones fit with no room to spare.

The AMC20 from a wagoneer is many many times better than the one that comes in CJs. The main being they come with one peice axles. Plus the waggy AMC20 is 10" wider.

I don't really see the need for a D60 for what I do, right now I'm running 33s and I may upgrade to 34 LTBs later. I just wanted wider axles for more stability, and since my rear was needing work I went ahead and upgraded.

[ November 02, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: crazandy ]

[crazandy]

Hey scotty, how'd you weld your brackets on? Stick weld? What kind of rod? Any preperation other than cleaning the metal?

[scotty]

i juat used a MIG welder. no prep other than grinding off paint and funk down to bare metal. theyre holding up just fine smile.gif

[Zack172]

I have a 5 bolt Dana 44 out of a scout in my CJ, and I want rear disc brakes. Instead of drilling a 6 bolt chevy rotor, couldn't I use a ford rotor or a chevy 2wd rotor? Or maybe a scout rotor? Would that work? I'm not too thrilled with the idea of drilling out my rotors. Thanks

Zack

[Zack172]

Oh, and you don't need longer lugs do you? Is the thickness of where the rotor mounts on the axle the same as the thickness of where the drum mounts to the shaft?

[scotty]

in order to use a 5 lug scout,ford,or CJ rotor,youll need to turn down the axlesahft flange,or mill out the rotor to fit over the axleshaft flange,so there is machinework involved either way. a chevy 2wd rotor does not work,cause it has wheelbearings,and is essentially the "hub" for a 2wd.

i like to redrill the 6 lug rotor,cause it fits the flange so nicely,plus gives you the oprion of swapping in a 6 lug axle later and not having to rebuy the rotor smile.gif this is how we did it on my friends 5 lug scout ii

you should not need longer studs,the rotor is about the same thickness as the drum

[ January 26, 2004, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: scotty ]

[Zack172]

ok thanks. I guess I'll just redrill the 6 bolt rotor then. Do you just use the drum as a template and drill it?

[Zack172]

bump

[scotty]

i have a friend that works in a machine shop who just put it into one of his hi-tech drilling machine thingys,and progammed the pattern,using one of the existing holesas the starting point.

if i didnt havwe that option,id do just like you said-use the drum as a template smile.gif

[Zack172]

ok cool, thanks scotty

[Sarge's 7]

(reviveing another old thread)

I am in the process of doing this exact thing when I ran across your thread. In my haste, I tossed the entire drum setup, to include the backing plate. Could anyone tell me the thikness of the backing plate so I could put a shim, of sorts, to ensure that I have the proper preload on the bearings?

Thanks

[scotty]

not sure on that,but i prolly got a couple old backing plates layin around somewhere if ya want for em for a couple bones plus the ride smile.gif

[Sarge's 7]

Yeah, let me know a price plus shipping to 66027.

Thanks.

[scotty]

couldnt be more than $10,how bout $15 shipped?

[Sarge's 7]

Sounds good, can I PayPal you, or would you rather I just send you a money order? Let me know, and the info for either way.

Thanks.

[scotty]

let me dig around today and make sure i do have them floating around. email me your snail mail addy,and ill let ya know for sure that i found em. paypal is fine with me as long as its from a checking account and not a credit card smile.gif

[Sarge's 7]

Is it different? How bout this, I'll email you my addy, you email me yours. I'll get you a money order out post haste.

[scotty]

sounds good,i got your email,sent you a reply.

reason i cant take paypal from a credit card is that i do not have the upgraded account. if yours is set up that way,you might want to consider verifying your checking account.only takes 2 or 3 days. its fine with me to wait for the MO,but you may find alot of people that sell on ebay and various message boards will only take paypal this way. its only worth it to upgrade(from the sellers standpoint) if you sell ALOT of stuff,as the premier account charges you a small fee for every transaction for the the ability to take a credit card based account. hope that clears it up for ya smile.gif

[Sarge's 7]

ok, I can do the bank transfer, but in the past when I've done it, it took something like 5 days to clear. In fact, send me your PayPal account and I'll do it that way, it won't cost me for a MO or a stamp that way.

[Sarge's 7]

I think I figured out that what I had done in the past was a e-check, not a instant transfer.

Thanks, Scotty. You that man!!

[scotty]

no prollem,i sent them out yesterday and i forwarded you the tracking #s,let me know if ya need anything else smile.gif

[Sarge's 7]

Thanks, Scotty!

[Woody Long]

Bringing this thread back to life.

Scotty,

Do you have any pics of the parts and setup? I'm wanting to purchas all the parts this weekend from a local NAPA (a few cases of beer and I can get anything....including respect). I'm looking at the Caddy calipers for the ebrake setup.

Thanks

[scotty]

the pic on the first page is bout the only one ive got. my 44 has been long gone ;)

what other questions did you have?

[Woody Long]

I just want a diagram or a pic of the complete set up. I'm more of a visual type of guy, couldn't be bothered with instructions. I'm going to get the type of items taled about in this thread and go from there. If I run across any problems I'll be posting up.

[scotty]

cool,feel free to let me know if ya have any ques or prollems smile.gif

[McRoth]

OK, I got all the stuff I need to do this now, but since I don't have the original 77 calipers, I don't have the banjo bolts or the bolts to hold it onto the new bracket! By the way, the brackets from A&A are awsome looking!
Can I just use regular grade 8 bolts to hold the caliper on? Do I have to find the banjo bolts at a junkyard or dealer?

Thanks!

[scotty]

sent you a PM as well. you can get the banjo bolts and caliper guide bolts at your local 'Zone or advanced auto,or prolly any parts store for that matter smile.gif

[McRoth]

Thanks Scotty! I found everything at Advance, autozone didn't carry them for some reason.
I got away without removing the axle shafts too! I was able to use a cut off wheel on my angle grinder to cut the backing plate away. Was pretty easy, once I got the hang of it. I was all ready to weld the brackets on, but the da** brake line fitting stripped off at the T. Now I need to get a new rear hose too. I'm just going to get the stainless one for a 6" lift, since that's what I'm going to put on there soon. Hopefully I'll have it all done sometime this weekend.

Thanks Again!!

Mike

[360]

hi guys that "E" brake is that the foot brake and did you get it working properly after fitting
the disc rear.also i read earlier about an adjustable proportioning valve ? for rear brakes where can i get one?can you still get new pro-valves?
cheers!!!!!!!!!!!

[McRoth]

Could someone point me in the right direction of where to find this buggy E-Brake? Just did a google, but didn't find much.

Thanks!

[scotty]

i got my hydraulic "park loc" from a local vw/buggy shop called larrys off road. go to any book store and pick up a "vw trends" magazine and there should be at least half a dozen different vendors in there selling them smile.gif

as far as the adjustable valve for the rear,it just fits into the rear line somewhere and has a knob you turn to "tone down" the pressure. get them from jegs,summit racing,or prolly about any speed shop.

[scotty]

as an afterthot,keep in mind that the hydraulic park locks need brakelines run to them,wich means running brakelines inside the passenger compt if you want to mount it under the dash or somewhere you can reach it.

alot of guys use an electric line lock,designed for drag racing. these work well for short periods of time,and you dont have to mount it inside the cab. only prollem is it wont work if your battery is dead,and over time will bleed off the pressure.

im currently running a 1/4 inch ball valve inline to my rear brakes,and so its working fine. it was a really cheap option,but i do not know how well it will hold up over time.

[Jim Webb]

How did you handle the rear brake lines? Did you run the hard lines to the calipers? Or did you add flexible lines to connect the hard lines to the caliper? Thanks for any help!!

Jim Webb

[J10Mike]

Originally posted by Jim Webb:
How did you handle the rear brake lines? Did you run the hard lines to the calipers? Or did you add flexible lines to connect the hard lines to the caliper? Thanks for any help!!

Jim WebbJim, If you're talking about the hydraulics, this is what I did. This isn't an amc20. But, it's an example of what I did. The hardline around the pumpkin was under $5. A tubing flare tool and tube cutter would be very useful here.
http://12.29.16.230/mmimages/diskbrakeconversion/hardline.jpg
Pic of flexline before attaching to hardline.
http://12.29.16.230/mmimages/diskbrakeconversion/brakelinepside.jpg

[ February 01, 2006, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: J10Mike ]

[Jim Webb]

Thanks! That's kinda what I was thinking of doing.

Jim

[scotty]

yup,thats basically what i did as well. if you use hardline to the caliper,future pad changes will be more of a PITA

[Thumpszilla]

Great write up scotty! Hope to do this soon!